LorenzoL

I'm guessing that they must be using the HD scans of My Young Auntie, Martial Arts and Bare Footed Kid that were available in the streaming services like Prime and Netflix when it was available. Was the 36th Chambers sequels available to stream too? I don't remember.

rocket1312

Yes, the 36th Chamber sequels were available. At least they were on itunes as far as I recall. They were also two of the handful of titles released on Blu ray in Hong Kong by IVL.

LorenzoL

Brian T

Had a feeling nothing had changed with the HK companies in this regard. Pretty sure Fortune Star operates the same way, or at least did circa the era of Shout releasing a bunch of multi-film packs of lesser titles in order to get their hands on the Jackie Chan films. There are definitely some lesser titles in that new Shaw box, but getting the gems as singles will probably never happen, or be so far down the road as to be pointless. As tempting as it is, I can hold off on this one as I did on the first one, which has remained in circulation long enough to be part of multiple sales now (even as low as $80-90 US, as I recall). Have to be frugal about these things.

I've always thought there were at least four of these boxes planned – pretty sure I read somewhere ages ago that they had licensed around 50-ish films. Or maybe that was someone guessing as well?

I think the the real gems in these collections – as well as a lot of HK titles from multiple companies – are the Frédéric Ambroisine interviews, many of which are with folks who are no longer around. I remember seeing a lot of these back when we were contributors to HKMDB around the time he was making them, and he would share them with us there (and presumably other forums he participated in). It was a bit sad that so many of his interviews weren't licensed for inclusion on DVD editions at the time, and were instead only posted on his website. Sad that it took 15-20 years for companies to finally appreciate what he was doing at the time, but I'm grateful that so much of it is finally coming out on a regular basis.

LorenzoL

I'm looking forward to the Cinema Hong Kong documentaries and the Citizen Shaw one. The new one too "Shaw in the USA" seems interesting.

LorenzoL

So when is Arrow coming up with the 4K disc for Enter the 36th Chamber? That's a 4K scan baby!

Brian T

I was fortunate back in the day to score an IVL disc that contained all three of those docs. I happened to stumble across a Chinatown store that barely sold any movies but had a dusty copy of that on a bottom shelf for seemingly ages. The stuff you find sometimes! I think the shows had appeared individually as bonus features on separate, relevant DVD titles back then, but there was one that I'd missed out on. They're pretty decent docs (presumably intended for TV based on their 50-minute run times), and I like the fact that they were actually produced in Hong Kong, rather than the usual 'white guys explain it to you' stuff. That said, I'm likewise looking forward to the 'Shaws In The USA' featurette because the 'These Fists' book is excellent. Hopefully those guys will be used more going forward, at least to break up what's becoming a collection of 'usual suspects' in the HK cinema supplement industry.

That's the kind of lesser film that would've been a novel inclusion in this set, if only for that cash-in alternate title.

LorenzoL

LorenzoL

More insight as to why Arrow has focused on the Shaw Brothers Martial Arts films. I'm concerned once they start releasing their "lesser" films, the sales numbers will dwindle. There's no happy medium to this unless, they get licensed to the Arrow Streaming Service.

Brian T

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I recall a number of those early 88 Films Shaw Blu-rays having few bonus features (aside from the occasional commentary or trailer). Not that supplements are some kind of guarantee of anything, but when there was very few on those, I generally avoided them in favour of the sheer variety that Celestial/IVL was making available on DVD and VCD out of Hong Kong. I suspect certain 'lesser selling category' titles would be more discoverable to the unfamiliar if they were mixed into Shaw boxes and supplemented with a few extra bonus features for context. Their very inclusion in these sets would lend a certain credence to them in the eyes of a lot of people who might not have bothered with them otherwise (as with the 88 Films versions, which often seemed like random choices, tossed on the market). In other words, there needs to be an "in", and the boxed sets are the best and probably only option. I'm fine if we never see comedies and dramas and musicals getting any attention in the west; they're tend to be very culturally localized. But that's also why I continually recommend people at least try and check out a few of them just so they have some context about Hong Kong cinema beyond whatever titles the boutique labels cherry-pick and what the mostly 'white guy scholars' provide as context. I'm also the first to admit that that task does get harder with each passing year, as more and more of the old IVL DVDs and VCDs just seem to vanish into personal collections and the stock has dwindled at various online shops.

Adam Tyner

100% agree.

dex14

Jame Flower:
https://criterionforum.org/forum/vie...768782#p768782

Brian T

Don't really care which ones are restored and which ones aren't anymore – it's Hong Kong cinema, Jake! – but I wonder how "relatively short" the license period is for these titles with any of the companies distributing them.

Still a bit of a shame about the comedies and dramas, as Hong Kong filmmakers have long found ways to inject martial arts or fight scenes into those as well, so there's probably a few that might quality (barely, I suspect). But it also kinda sounds like the Arrow folks – and maybe many of their contribors – really aren't familiar with stuff outside the most common genres. Yikes. I just hope his definition of 'genre' films extends beyond Kung-Fu, Wuxia and Horror. I can think of some fun 60's spy/action-style movies that would make cool additions (INTERPOL, ASIA-POL, THE ANGEL STRIKES AGAIN, SUMMONS TO DEATH). Somewhere earlier, that guy was quoted as mentioning "crime films" as well. Shaw did a set of five colourful, violent anthology pictures called THE CRIMINALS in 1976 and 1977. They were released on DVD and VCD by Celestial back in the day, but were never easy to find. I found exactly none of them, and only have them in the Ziieagle Shaw Box where they're presumably butchered for the censorship-crazed Malaysian market. Would love to see those in a future set, but I'm sure at best they'd only license a couple of them, if at all. You could easily fit all five on two Blu-rays with room for extras. Beyond those, though, Shaw did produce many other gritty crime films that might warrant inclusion: POLICE FORCE, THE DELINQUENT and BAMBOO HOUSE OF DOLLS (all 1973), KIDNAP (74), THE TAXI DRIVER (75), KILLERS ON WHEELS (76), BANK BUSTERS (78), MERCENARIES FROM HONG KONG (82; was this one already mentioned in regards to these sets?), MEN FROM THE GUTTER (83), DANGER HAS TWO FACES (85)

dex14

88 put out Region B The Mighty Peking Man in 2017 and Arrow then had the rights for Regions A & B for 2021. So what 3-4 years.

rocket1312

I definitely care which ones are restored and which ones aren't. The old transfers are serviceable but are slathered in dnr and more importantly heavily frame cut. The restored titles in volume 1 are anywhere from 2 to 5 minutes longer than their unrestored counterparts. There aren't any scenes missing, but almost every edit is missing a few frames. Sometimes it isn't noticeable, but sometimes it really wrecks the flow of the editing. In the case of the Boxer From Shantung, there's an awkward edit with a freeze frame in the middle of one of the tea house fights that the celestial master just removes entirely because they thought it was an error that they couldn't fix. I'm sure that's not the only example of something like that. It's just the only one I noticed going through the previous set. The sound is also improved on the new restorations.

I get that many of us first encountered these films on terribly compromised vhs/vcd/dvd and we're used to them looking like garbage, but I'm of the opinion that the first step in respecting and legitimizing these films is to present them with the same standards that more "mainstream" fare are afforded.

Brian T

I think it's great that people care about these, including the folks working on them, but by Arrow's own admission, titles in these first two boxes are kinda going out 'as is' and we'll live with it. But when Arrow guy says this:

I have to wonder what this means for the unrestored versions in these early batches. Will they conveniently renew licenses for those and suddenly grace us with new, restored single editions? Maybe 4K discs? Where does it end?

Incidentally, my thoughts about this aren't based on having seen the Shaw pictures looking like garbage, even though I'm sure I caught a few – unknowingly – on Detroit's Kung Fu Theatre as a kid . . . maybe. My first meaningful encounters with the vast majority of these films were actually with the IVL DVDs and some of the American DVDs that followed in their wake (and a small number I've skimmed through on the Ziieagle years ago, which looked pretty decent but had a their own problems thanks to censorship). For the time, thought, they were the best these films had ever looked, even with these relatively minor warts. The DNR and frame cutting and sweetened sound effects (ugh) weren't exactly apparent to every single person who watched their imported HK discs (well, a case could be made for the sound effects, which were shockingly mismatched). A great many enjoyed the films for their stories, choreography, photography, favourite actors, whatever, and were overjoyed to be able to see so many Shaw films that weren't martial arts related. I'd wager that a lot of folks only learned about these flaws when the review sites and various Shaw experts pointed it out, and after that, as usual, the gloves came off in some corners, less so in others like mine. I just kept scooping up what I could find because I knew this stuff wouldn't be on the market forever, and now I'm content to savour my copies of countless movies that will never see the light of day via Arrow, 88 or anyone else (and rightly so, 100 per cent), while treating myself to the cream of the crop of these new editions as money permits. I wouldn't be surprised if every single one of those earlier discs was compromised, but in the greater scheme of things circa 2006-2011, the very fact that we were getting a nearly endless stream of Shaw titles (the HK editions in particular) in all genres felt like a small miracle after being told for literally decades that the Shaw library was forever off the table.

So yeah, we got compromises in the deal – when haven't we with HK movies, historically – and regardless of how much one cares, it's obvious now that Arrow could only afford to tackle restorations on a select number of their acquisitions, and we're both – we're all – stuck with them. Can we assume that those earlier 88 Films Shaw Blu-ray releases were likely similarly compromised? Can't see them having a ton of funding for full-blown restorations back then.

rocket1312

Don't get me wrong, the IVL DVD releases are how I saw all of these movies. I had many. Still have a bunch But if they're going to re-release these in expensive sets, I'll take the new restorations. I can watch the old ones any time I want.

LorenzoL

You bring up some amazing titles for Arrow to select for their Volume 3 and 4 if they are really moving away from the mostly Kung Fu films. I'm certain that Volume 3 will be a Wuxia based. James Flower commented that a Chor Yuen one is coming so it may be focused on Chang Cheh and Chor Yuen films as One-Armed Swordsman is missing and that's a huge title for it not to have a physical release. I'm really hoping that Intimate Confessions of a Chinese Courtesan makes it into the Wuxia set. A Wuxia per set that's also pretty unconventional, that needs to be seen. I have the old Image DVD and I'm so glad that I actually bought that even though I knew nothing about it beforehand. The other Wuxia titles that I want in HD are The Black Tavern and Killer Constable. Two of my favourite Shaw films that's not mentioned at all compared to the other titles. There's so many Wuxia titles, that's it will all depend on what they see as the most important ones according to Arrow. Chang Cheh and Chor Yuen films are guaranteed. Sun Chung and Yueh Feng are a possibility. Maybe some Lo Wei?

I wonder what Arrow will do for the fourth set? It will seem on par with the type of films that Arrow puts out that a Horror set or a set with mostly Horror films will make the most sense. The most likely candidates for this Horror set seems: the 2 Black Magic films, maybe the 3 Hex films, Seeding of a Ghost, Hell Has No Boundary, Corpse Mania, Killer Snakes, Oily Maniac, Ghost Eyes, Siamese Twins (that's a rare one). I would love it if they include Enchanted Shadow but that's probably another wishful thinking by my part.

Brian T You name some great crime and police Shaw films but my assumption will seem that if Arrow decide to add Crime films to their sets, it would be most likely Men from the Gutter, Danger Has Two Faces, Hong Kong Godfather, This Man is Dangerous or Brothers from the Walled City. As much as I would love to be wrong and for them to add The Teahouse, Big Brother Cheng or the 5 Criminal films that you mentioned, I don't think that they will.

I only bought most of the R1 releases as I never bought the IVL DVDs and VCDs so I agree with rocket1312 that I wish they go and remastered them all. However, I understand the cost and time implication so as long as they are better than those IVL releases, and by looking at the Volume 1 set, I think they are, I'm happy.

It was thanks to COVID and the lockdown that I started delving into the Shaw Brothers filmography more in depth. I was fairly familiar with their Martial Arts films but had no idea about their other type of films. I'm now up to 212 Shaw films and counting that I have watched. I have yet to tackle their Erotica films but I will eventually. I had to acquire most of the films using "other" means and some of them were in terrible shape so seeing them in a pristine manner would be huge for me. These Shawscope releases are big for me and I will buy them as long as they continue to release them.
I was hoping that Arrow will acquire the streaming licensing for those genres that they don't see financially viable (comedy, drama, huangmei opera, musicals) and add them to their streaming service but it seems that's not how they operate. I'm hoping with with the renewed interest in the Hong Kong films, that a streaming service will pick up those Shaw films. It seems like a pipe dream but I can dream...

For those interested in knowing what other films beside their Martial Arts films Shaw made, here is my Letterboxd list that I maintain for the Shaw Brothers filmography. I'm well aware that they made over a thousand films and that list is up to 806 currently. I did not create the list initially but I have been slowly adding them to Letterboxd, which is a long and tedious process using TDMB. An internet contact was kind enough to send me all of the scanned pages from the book Shaw and Screen, detailing every single Shaw Brothers film that was released starting from their Shaw and Sons days. I have roughly over 200 films that I need to add to Letterboxd.
The Complete Shaw Brothers Filmography (in progress)

dex14

Preorders are going up

dex14

20 min trailer reel:

Brian T

Oh I know I'm likewise pipe-dreaming about a lot of those crime titles. I have the old HK discs and those are fine. As mentioned here (and elsewhere recently), I never got hung up on the supposed awfulness of the IVL releases. Because most of them are not that bad.

I wouldn't be surprised if all of those horror titles have been licensed for reissues, either in Arrow boxes, singles or via other boutique labels. A large portion of them were released on North American DVDs back in the day, so there's even some lingering 'history' with them here. And they've all got their moments! Also agree on your Wuxia hopefuls , but I likewise suspect Arrow (and the others) will only pursue the most 'sellable' titles.

These thoughts make me wonder if some folks honestly thought that the IVL releases were 'bad' enough to avoid because simply because they lacked perfect remastering or whatever , or perhaps because of the cut frames or audio alterations (the latter were on a number of titles, but far from everything). Avoiding those releases – the majority of which still stand as the only disc versions some Shaw films have ever had – seems like it would, eventually, leave no choice but to access them via "other means" as the discs went OOP or otherwise became scarce. But if the downloads looked even worse, it's hard to see the point (contrary to that, though, wouldn't people have uploaded most of the IVL discs anyway? Seemed pretty common back in the day to just rip 'n share everything).

Mind you, the IVL discs were always going to have a limited shelf life, so certainly by now the only way to see a massive portion of the library (meaning the non-martial arts and non-action pictures) is by pirating them, unless Arrow decides to start up an all-encompassing streaming option. But like you, I see little chance of that happening. At best, most boutiques would probably just stream stuff already in their disc library, plus a few complementary films in those same genres.

I vaguely recall a Shaw broadcast/satellite channel being available in Asia many years back (maybe?), but I'd imagine interest in it was short-lived, even over there. I remember a coworker back in the day who had some illegal magic box that allowed her to access various Asian broadcast networks over here, but not surprisingly she and her family were limited to whatever movies were being broadcast at a given moment (unlike streaming). I seriously doubt the entire Shaw catalog was being shown on their particular channel, but who knows. Really, to date, the best 'most-in-one' ownership option was the Ziieagle Box from 2010 – 668 Shaw movies in a slick little device smaller than most DVD players – but it had the misfortune of being released solely in a country with archaic censorship laws (and remember, don't kiss your loved one in public there or it's off to the police station with you). Resolution-wise, due to compression the films weren't quite as sharp as they looked on the IVL's DVDs – and sorry, but they did look pretty damned good on those discs – but they were still very watchable. The censor edits, however, ran the gamut from none at all, to a tolerable but still unacceptable second or two, to the downright laughable removal of entire scenes.

Regardless of it all, we're basically limited now to whatever titles Arrow, 88, Eureka or others deem worthy of licensing and can reasonably expect to profit from. Like you folks, I'm cool with that based on what I've seen so far. I hope that the 212 discs in your Shaw library at least include a decent cross-section of films from their other genres, because those are likely to remain the only discs in existence for a lot of them (especially the IVL discs), and the opportunity to find others at this point is exceedingly difficult and expensive (unless one is ok using those "other" means, I suppose?).

rocket1312

I never specifically avoided the IVL discs due to quality concerns (as stated, this was pretty much the only way to see these movies), although the remixed studio with the incessant chirping birds drove me absolutely bonkers. What did prevent me from buying more was simply a matter of economics. They were releasing like half a dozen titles biweekly (or was it weekly?) at their peak. At ~$12 a piece, I didn't have nearly the disposable income to keep up with all of them, especially considering these were also the salad days of HKL and Fortune Star beginning to exploit the Golden Harvest catalog. I also didn't have much access to Chinatown shops. Everything I bought was shipped over from HK.

That said, I DID specifically avoid any region 1 releases that didn't address the problems with the IVLs. Most specifically it was the inability or unwillingness of some of these labels to convert the 25fps pal masters into proper 23.96fps progressive ntsc transfers. When they just took the lazy route (as IVL did), we were stuck with transfers that showed really awful ghosting at times.

As for the horror titles mentioned above, a bunch of those were released by 88 in recent years. I'd be mildly surprised to see them revisited by Arrow given the allegedly poor sales numbers and the fact that most people in the UK who would be interested likely would have already purchased those.

DJariya

I want that Shaw Brothers volume 2 set, but I think I’m going to hold out for a sale. I bought the first set week 1 and paid about $150 plus tax. I’ve seen it on sale for as low as $90 recently. I still haven’t finished completely going through it too. Expensive sets like that I want to make sure I go through it and not make it an expensive shelf decoration.

dex14

I got Vol 1 for around $95 at release. Lowest I've seen Vol 2 is around $120-125, which isn't terrible. But, I am not pre-ordering it, I think it will be lower and I don't want to have a pre-order locked somewhere I can't cancel.

LorenzoL

In Canada, they added Amazon as one of the retailers this year as Volume 1 was only available at Unobstructed View. I’m also going to hold off preordering the set as Amazon is currently listing it for retail at $220 Canadian. Unobstructed View has it for $198 but they are charging $15 extra for shipping.

I’m hoping that the set will go down in price so I can preorder as I also seen the Volume 1 at more affordable price after release. I think the cheapest I saw in Canada was for $140.

If Amazon lowers their preorder price to $190 or below, I will bite.