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Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

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Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Old 01-01-18, 02:01 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Adding more fuel to the fire.

Further compounding my distrust of 4Kbluray, is a recent firmware update to LG manufactured computer bluray-r drives which disabled playback of 4Kbluray movie discs. So now it doesn't even read the table of contents on 4Kbluray discs anymore.

If playback of 4Kbluray discs is completely disabled on currently manufactured computer bluray-r drives, then there is no way of checking 4Kbluray discs for manufacturing defects by extracting the undecrypted iso from a 4Kbluray disc on the computer.

If I have no way of checking a newly purchased 4Kbluray disc for random bad sectors due to manufacturing defects, then I'm not wasting any cash on 4Kbluray.


(This was the primary reason why I never really got into collecting laserdiscs. The few laserdiscs I did buy back in the day, were ones that I watched from start to finish and all the special features. There was no easier way to check laserdiscs for bad sectors).
Old 01-01-18, 02:06 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by morriscroy
Further compounding my distrust of 4Kbluray, is a recent firmware update to LG manufactured computer bluray-r drives which disabled playback of 4Kbluray movie discs. So now it doesn't even read the table of contents on 4Kbluray discs anymore.
Citation?
Old 01-01-18, 02:14 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by TheBang
Citation?
https://club.myce.com/t/help-revert-...ssflash/399700

The culprit is the recent 1.03 firmware update.
Old 01-01-18, 02:18 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

(Without going into verboten territory).


The older 1.02 firmware version for that particular LG computer bluray-r drive model, is one of the few models+firmware which could play 4Kbluray discs using the "hacked" keys.

(No citations/links this time. Google it if you're interested in details).
Old 01-01-18, 07:31 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by dvd-4-life
No one has sold me on 4K.

Plus there is nearly nothing concerning the music industry on 4K Blu-ray. I might gather it a look if they improve in this category.
The thing that's keeping me away from 4K is that, like everyone else, I'm getting older and my eyesight is declining, so I'm not going to see the benefits of 4K unless I'm sitting two feet away from the tv. Twenty year ago I might have bern impressed, but any gains in resolution will belost on me.
Old 01-01-18, 08:37 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by morriscroy
The older 1.02 firmware version for that particular LG computer bluray-r drive model, is one of the few models+firmware which could play 4Kbluray discs using the "hacked" keys.
Thanks for the links. I have a 1.02 drive that I bought about 6 months ago, but have not installed yet. I guess I won't be updating the firmware. I didn't realize AACS 2.0 had been bypassed somewhat on a large scale. That's interesting.
Old 01-01-18, 09:01 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by TheBang
Thanks for the links. I have a 1.02 drive that I bought about 6 months ago, but have not installed yet.
(This is purely speculation).

My suspicion is that this particular 1.03 firmware update is a net result of the AACS folks threatening to revoke LG's license to use the AACS intellectual property. Hence closing this loophole which only required a valid AACS 1.0 certificate to read 4Kbluray discs.

Most likely a result of the recent releases of "hacked" keys of many 4Kbluray discs.

Last edited by morriscroy; 01-02-18 at 12:35 PM.
Old 01-02-18, 06:19 AM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
The thing that's keeping me away from 4K is that, like everyone else, I'm getting older and my eyesight is declining, so I'm not going to see the benefits of 4K unless I'm sitting two feet away from the tv. Twenty year ago I might have bern impressed, but any gains in resolution will belost on me.
I'm almost 60 and in the same boat. For me, I absolutely see a difference. The HDR makes things crisper and deeper color while still looking natural. For the few extra bucks on a new release well worth the cake. I'll gladly upgrade any DVD to 4K and have started to replace my HD DVD with 4K or BR. Not enough of a difference to upgrade any BR to 4K. I've double dipped too much.
Old 01-02-18, 12:16 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by TheBang
I didn't realize AACS 2.0 had been bypassed somewhat on a large scale. That's interesting.
As far as I can remember, these particular LG computer bluray-r drives which could read 4Kbluray discs with only a valid AACS 1.0 certificate, were first designed and manufactured sometime in mid-late 2015. Without the AACS folks reading them the "riot act", for the next two years LG largely took the lazy way out and didn't change the design much.

So far the only other manufacturer of OEM computer bluray-r drives which could read 4Kbluray discs, is Pioneer.


It is really annoying that there are only two manufacturers of 4Kbluray computer drives.

LG drives have their own technical "diseases" which are really annoying to deal with for anybody who is not aware of them.

Pioneer manufactured internal bluray-r computer drives seem to be a lot harder to find. So LG bluray-r drives end up being easily available, and also their "rebadges" (such as ASUS, etc ...).
Old 01-02-18, 02:20 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
The thing that's keeping me away from 4K is that, like everyone else, I'm getting older and my eyesight is declining, so I'm not going to see the benefits of 4K unless I'm sitting two feet away from the TV. Twenty year ago I might have been impressed, but any gains in resolution will be lost on me.
I'm in the same boat, having received my AARP card in August, now getting very close to 'get off my lawn' territory.

I continue to marvel at the PQ and AQ available to me on 1080p Blu-ray discs on my 60" plasma. Some might say that ignorance is bliss, but kiss my ass, I don't care. I have almost 800 SKUs on Blu-ray and that's where I'm staking my claim.
Old 01-03-18, 08:42 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

(This may sound really really fuckin stupid, but I'll mention it anyways).


To preemptively close off any obvious avenues and further temptation to jump onto the 4Kbluray OCD compulsive collecting treadmill, today I consciously decided to update my LG bluray-r drive to the dreaded 1.03 firmware.

So far there are no known easy ways to "downgrade" back to the 1.02 firmware, using off the shelf tools which are easily available online (such as devilsclaw). Apparently it appears this 1.03 update changed more than just the firmware, where other flashable memory areas in the drive were also modified.

At lunch today I also deliberately maxed out my monthly discretionary budget (which I allocate for recreational stuff such as dvds, blurays, etc ...), and purchased two Pioneer internal computer bluray-r drives which are NOT capable of playing 4Kbluray discs.

Apparently the local computer store still had one LG bluray-r drive with the "good" 1.02 firmware. Hopefully that one will be gone by next month, and newer LG drives with the updated 1.03 firmware will only be available. (Also hopefully I won't have to shop at another computer store in town). There are reports of some online retailers (such as amazon, etc ...) which are already selling newly manufactured LG bluray-r drives with the dreaded 1.03 firmware (purportedly with an early December 2017 manufacturing date).


This is a semi-futile way of attempting to "reverse engineer" my OCD.
Old 01-03-18, 09:02 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

My guess is that once retailers no longer have any "good" 1.02 firmware LG bluray-r drives left in their inventories, the prices might very well spike up on the third party markets (such as ebay, etc ...).


Perhaps similar to what happened to older classic Plextor dvdr drives (with the Sanyo chipset), after Plextor stopped manufacturing them back in 2006-2007. Apparently there is still a market for them, where crazy folks are willing to pay over a $100 for a second handed classic Plextor dvdr drive.

Last edited by morriscroy; 01-03-18 at 09:30 PM.
Old 01-04-18, 10:03 AM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

(More ranting about LG computer 4kbluray drives).

Another thing which is really annoying is how long it takes to extract the entire iso from a 4Kbluray disc even with no decryption.

Depending on the combination of LG drive model + firmware revision (there are several valid combinatins), there are anecdotal reports of extracting the undecrypted iso from a two-layer 4Kbluray disc (approx 66 gigabytes or less) taking anywhere from 45 minutes to over an hour. From my previous experiences with checking normal blurays, this 45 minutes figure sounds about right if the 4Kbluray drive is spinning at the same speeds I'm familiar with. (A 46-50 gigabytes sized normal bluray disc usually takes around 30 minutes to extract the entire undecrypted iso).

There are also anecdotal reports of taking over an hour to as long as two hours (or longer), to extract the undecrypted iso from a three-layer 4Kbluray disc (approx 100 gigabytes or less).

If it is taking 1 to 2 hours (or longer) to even extract the undecrypted iso from a 4Kbluray disc (whether two or three layers), then I have to question why would I even bother checking 4Kbluray discs on the computer in the first place. It would be easier to find manufacturing defects by just watching the actual 4Kbluray disc movie + special features in the same 2 hours time period.


(Some background).

The primary reason I was willing to buy a lot of dvds and blurays in the past (in an OCD "Alan Smithee" compulsive buying style), is that it only takes around 11 minutes to check a dvd disc or a normal single-layer bluray disc on the computer, for any manufacturing defects. (Most of the dump bin stuff I purchased a lot of, were mostly lousy C-list or D-list action or sci-fi movies).

Normal two-layer bluray discs usually took around 20-30 minutes to check on the computer for any manufacturing defects.
Old 01-04-18, 02:48 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
The thing that's keeping me away from 4K is that, like everyone else, I'm getting older and my eyesight is declining, so I'm not going to see the benefits of 4K unless I'm sitting two feet away from the tv. Twenty year ago I might have bern impressed, but any gains in resolution will belost on me.
Same here. Most of my DVDs look "almost as good as BR" unless I get up close and personal. I'm still upgrading favorites and generally purchase on Blu for new(er) releases but don't see ever going 4K. And that's in spite of owning a 4K compatible player (which I purchased for its region free capabilities - not 4K). Admittedly, most of my viewing is of "classic" TV shows, the vast majority of which do not have a BR release at all, much less 4K.
Old 01-04-18, 04:50 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

One important thing to consider with DVD vs BD is that a lot of titles were 4x3 letterbox or 4x3 fullscreen on DVD but 16x9 on BD.

Never compared to see how much it matters, but fullscreen stuff on DVD is listed as 1:33 on DVD but 1:37 on BD.
Old 01-04-18, 11:54 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by rw2516
One important thing to consider with DVD vs BD is that a lot of titles were 4x3 letterbox or 4x3 fullscreen on DVD but 16x9 on BD.

Never compared to see how much it matters, but fullscreen stuff on DVD is listed as 1:33 on DVD but 1:37 on BD.
Titles that were fullscreen and 4:3 letterbox on DVD are always my "guilt-free" upgrades as the picture quality is always a significant step-up on Blu-ray.

Looking back at a few of the original Sony DVD titles that were released back in 1998 such as Revenge, Stripes, Body Double, About Last Night... etc. are still surprisingly very good-looking DVDs after twenty years, at least on the 16:9 anamorphic side of the disc.
Old 01-05-18, 10:30 AM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by orangerunner
Titles that were fullscreen and 4:3 letterbox on DVD are always my "guilt-free" upgrades as the picture quality is always a significant step-up on Blu-ray.

Looking back at a few of the original Sony DVD titles that were released back in 1998 such as Revenge, Stripes, Body Double, About Last Night... etc. are still surprisingly very good-looking DVDs after twenty years, at least on the 16:9 anamorphic side of the disc.
It's weird how there's such a varied effect on early disc encodes. The original Austin Powers DVD was 16x9 but playing it not to long ago, it looked barely better than VHS.
Same with the Lord of the Rings extended DVDs. My literally could not watch them, and bought them digitally right then and there so we could continue watching.

But there's plenty of others that I put in, and while you can tell they're older, they're still okay to watch.
Old 01-05-18, 11:53 AM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by milo bloom
It's weird how there's such a varied effect on early disc encodes. The original Austin Powers DVD was 16x9 but playing it not to long ago, it looked barely better than VHS.
Same with the Lord of the Rings extended DVDs. My literally could not watch them, and bought them digitally right then and there so we could continue watching.

But there's plenty of others that I put in, and while you can tell they're older, they're still okay to watch.
It was probably dependent on what was used as the video master. A lot of those early non-anamorphic DVDs probably came from laserdisc masters.
Old 01-05-18, 11:58 AM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by orangerunner
Looking back at a few of the original Sony DVD titles that were released back in 1998 such as Revenge, Stripes, Body Double, About Last Night... etc. are still surprisingly very good-looking DVDs after twenty years, at least on the 16:9 anamorphic side of the disc.
Originally Posted by milo bloom
It's weird how there's such a varied effect on early disc encodes. The original Austin Powers DVD was 16x9 but playing it not to long ago, it looked barely better than VHS.
Same with the Lord of the Rings extended DVDs. My literally could not watch them, and bought them digitally right then and there so we could continue watching.

But there's plenty of others that I put in, and while you can tell they're older, they're still okay to watch.
That's why I almost always put in my DVD copy for a quick screening should a BR upgrade come up at an acceptable price. There's been a few I've not bothered upgrading as the DVD looked "good enough" given the title, how much I like it, and how often it might get watched.
Old 01-05-18, 05:55 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by orangerunner

Looking back at a few of the original Sony DVD titles that were released back in 1998 such as Revenge, Stripes, Body Double, About Last Night... etc. are still surprisingly very good-looking DVDs after twenty years, at least on the 16:9 anamorphic side of the disc.
Unlike the other studios, Sony began using HD masters almost from the get go for DVD. At least the minimum to qualify as HD. They were forward thinking probably because they were in the tech side of the business also. The 4x3 side of those DS discs was probably from the 480 master used for the VHS.

DVDs that were 4x3 letterbox were sourced from the 480 master used from the VHS or laserdisc.
DVDs of older fullscreen movies that had been released on VHS were from the 480 masters used for the VHS
DVDs of fullscreen movies that never had a home video release were from new masters that probably meet the minimum of HD. That' why the dvds of tv shows from the sixties are so great looking. Hardly any got full releases and brand new masters were made for the DVD releases because non existed.
No matter howbad they look now, it's hard to imagine anybody making a brand new anamorphic transfer that's not at least the minimum to be called HD even as far back as late 1990s.

Back to Sony. They set out to make HD transfers for everything in their catalog almost 20 years ago. If you've ever watched a Sony/Columbia MOD DVD, even the most obscure B movie from the 30s, 40s, 50s looks good enough to release on BD from the same transfer.
Old 01-05-18, 06:33 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by rw2516
Back to Sony. They set out to make HD transfers for everything in their catalog almost 20 years ago. If you've ever watched a Sony/Columbia MOD DVD, even the most obscure B movie from the 30s, 40s, 50s looks good enough to release on BD from the same transfer.
I don't think I agree. Although Sony started making HD transfers back in the mid-'90s, the studio also had a policy of liberally applying Edge Enhancement to all its masters until 2007 (the second year of the Blu-ray format). The studio only cleaned up its act and stopped using EE due to widespread complaints about its first batch of Blu-rays in 2006, which all used recycled DVD-era masters that looked very poor in high-def.

Since that time, Sony has had a very good track record with newly remastered material, but still occasionally puts out a disc from a crappy old master. Many of the Sony Choice MOD program Blu-rays have been criticized for poor transfer quality.

Warner Bros., on the other hand, never used so much EE. Most of its old DVD-era masters look at least acceptably watchable in HD (even if they could still benefit from fresh remastering standards).
Old 01-06-18, 06:44 AM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by Josh Z
I don't think I agree. Although Sony started making HD transfers back in the mid-'90s, the studio also had a policy of liberally applying Edge Enhancement to all its masters until 2007 (the second year of the Blu-ray format). The studio only cleaned up its act and stopped using EE due to widespread complaints about its first batch of Blu-rays in 2006, which all used recycled DVD-era masters that looked very poor in high-def.

Since that time, Sony has had a very good track record with newly remastered material, but still occasionally puts out a disc from a crappy old master. Many of the Sony Choice MOD program Blu-rays have been criticized for poor transfer quality.

Warner Bros., on the other hand, never used so much EE. Most of its old DVD-era masters look at least acceptably watchable in HD (even if they could still benefit from fresh remastering standards).
I'm not speaking so much as to the quality of the transfers, there can be brand new 2K transfers that are poor quality, but that the masters used are at least 1080. They are not just using an existing 480 master.
Old 01-06-18, 11:16 AM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by rw2516
I'm not speaking so much as to the quality of the transfers, there can be brand new 2K transfers that are poor quality, but that the masters used are at least 1080. They are not just using an existing 480 master.
I'm guessing a "flawed" 1080 HD master source would probably make for a good-looking DVD but the faults would probably be more noticeable on a Blu-ray disc.
Old 01-06-18, 09:15 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Originally Posted by rw2516
I'm not speaking so much as to the quality of the transfers, there can be brand new 2K transfers that are poor quality, but that the masters used are at least 1080. They are not just using an existing 480 master.
Hardly anybody uses 480 masters on Blu-ray, except in cases where the material originated in standard-def.
Old 01-07-18, 06:41 PM
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Re: Blu-ray and DVD sales - We're number 2, but we try harder

Don't forget about the mid-2000s when Sony dropped the ball and started putting out several movies ONLY in 4x3, and even dropping the 16x9 transfer from discs that originally had both!

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