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Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

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Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Old 08-07-10, 04:21 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by ctyankee
Intent means more than some prevailing 'standard' of the day. Show me a wide-screen shot from Vertigo where one movie star is staring at another star where the other star's eyes are not in the picture. Additionally, Hitchcock was strongly considering Psycho to be a straight to TV film. Certainly that wasn't the case for the other movies you mentions so why is it so baffling that he would compose it (versus protect it) for the small screen?
It is my strong belief that you are very wrong.
Old 08-07-10, 05:39 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Ditto. First, you can't compare the production of Vertigo to that of Psycho. The only thing relevant to the discussion of Psycho, is the history of that particular film itself. Psycho started out as being considered, albeit very reluctantly and with many roadblocks along the way, for a cheap and fast production for television. However, Hitchcock made many sacrifices in order to make sure that Psycho would be made the way he wanted it to be... as a theatrical film, and that's what Psycho was filmed to be. The film's aspect ratio was 1.85:1, and was shot on 35mm. That's all we really need to know in order to figure out what Hitchcock's intent truly was. He fought and did whatever he good to make Psycho a theatrical presentation, and the way it was filmed shows it.

There's been a lot of debate about this over the years... debate that usually boils down to, "Well too bad he's dead and we can't really know for sure." I think it's sort of a copout to 'agree to disagree' in this way about such a topic, because you piece the story together and it's pretty obvious what the intent was.
Old 08-07-10, 05:49 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by Bob_Bobbson
As for the eye-line thing...that one shot with the top of Anthony Perkin's head chopped off. Janet Leigh is the focus of the shot. Did you check the film to see how long it lasts? I did. 5 Seconds.
This camera shot with Perkins' head cut off occurs five (5) count 'em five times in the scene for a total of a lot more than five seconds. If we're going to discuss this let's not spread misinformation.



That said I don't think the wide-screen issue is as bad as Touch of Evil. That's awful.
Old 08-07-10, 05:59 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Too bad hitch is dead and can't square away this whole 1.33:1 vs 1.85:1 debacle. i am in the camp that believes this film is and always will be a 1.85:1 theatrical film and the Open Matte was for TV only. It's kinda the same thing that Robert Rodreguiz does with alot of his films. 2.35:1 for theatrical and 1.78:1 for home video
Old 08-07-10, 06:06 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by mzupeman2
Ditto. First, you can't compare the production of Vertigo to that of Psycho. The only thing relevant to the discussion of Psycho, is the history of that particular film itself.
Someone else brought up Vertigo and other wide-screen Hitch films into the discussion not I. They did it to share the info that Hitch was a wide-screen guy by this point and it's laughable to suggest that Psycho was a one-off effort by 1960. So, I think it's fair game to ask for similar heads cut for mid-range shots within Vertigo involving two key actors.

:munches popcorn while waiting:
Old 08-07-10, 09:28 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by Lemmy
So, for those of us who have forgotten, or don't care to look it all up...what is the AR that will be on the Blu-ray? I've forgotten. But, truth be told, I'd take this film in either of the aspect ratios I've seen in these samples.
The UK caps were 1.85:1 unless I'm mistaken.
Old 08-07-10, 10:41 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Even if it were filmed for 4x3, you wouldn't see Perkins' face on most TVs due to overscan. There's no debate and nothing sane about using an ancient VHS tape as any sort of reference for a film.
Old 08-07-10, 10:49 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by ctyankee
This camera shot with Perkins' head cut off occurs five (5) count 'em five times in the scene for a total of a lot more than five seconds. If we're going to discuss this let's not spread misinformation.



That said I don't think the wide-screen issue is as bad as Touch of Evil. That's awful.
Noted and edited (Yeah, I sort of dropped the ball and misspoke there). Like I said though, the two of them are having a conversation. When the camera focuses on her during the conversation, it is this shot. When it focuses on him, it is a reverse angle where he can be seen fully. All other shots in the sequence are framed so that the action is composed in such a way that if you were to open the mattes, you would just have a bunch of dead space. In fact, all the shots I saw as I jumped around chapters, through the whole film, were like that (Excessive headroom if opened).

Sorry for the misinformation. Really, I apologize. I fast forwarded through until I saw that shot, watched it, and then typed up my post. (That's how I got the 5 second count)
Old 08-08-10, 07:25 AM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Saul Bass's storyboards for the shower scene clearly indicate widescreen composition (though they are narrower than 1.85:1, about 1.60:1) -- they can be seen in the "Hitchcock gallery" on hitchcockwiki.com, I am not allowed to post the URL.
Old 08-08-10, 08:58 AM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Here ya go: Alfred Hitchcock Wiki
Old 08-08-10, 09:11 AM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by ctyankee
This camera shot with Perkins' head cut off occurs five (5) count 'em five times in the scene for a total of a lot more than five seconds. If we're going to discuss this let's not spread misinformation.

But really, take a look at the open matte version of this shot. The top of Perkins' head is cut off even in "full frame". If Hitchcock were framing this shot with the intent of showing both actors' faces, he would have given Perkins a lot more headroom.

With his eyes so close to the top edge of the frame, they were very likely to be lost on most theater screens due to variances in theatrical projection (if Hitchcock could have even gotten the film projected in 4:3 at all, which was unlikely at best). And the eyes would certainly have been lost on TV screens (if this were truly intended to be a TV movie) due to the severe overscan all televisions had at the time. Hitchcock was a very technical director and would have known this.

The 4:3 version of that shot is just bad composition. The 1.85:1 version puts the focus on Janet Leigh and makes it much clearer that Perkins' face is supposed to be out of frame. The shot works much better at 1.85:1.
Old 08-08-10, 02:07 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Psycho is one of my absolute favorite films of all times.

I've watched the 4:3 version countless times, and I've watched the 1.85:1 version at least a dozen times. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that Hitchcock intended 1:85:1 to be the correct aspect ratio.

All anyone has to do is watch the entire film, and study the composition of each shot to realize which version looks best overall. You can't cherry pick a few scenes for comparison, you have to examine the film as a whole.

I don't believe anyone who is a fan of this film could honestly say they prefer it open matte.
Old 08-09-10, 08:27 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Sheesh. Why is this even a debate? I'm not sure but I guess around 85% of films shot from the beginning of film history have been shot with spherical lenses fully exposing the image onto 35mm film, which has a frame ratio of 1.33:1 or therebouts. Starting in the early 50's and right up until today these films have been matted at 1:85 when shown in theaters. Psycho is not some unique phenomina in this regard. AND that's not counting super35, and who knows what other kind of crazy digital processes they have these days.

Bottom line, you want to open up the mattes on Psycho then you might as well open up the mattes on 85% or so of the movies ever made.

Someone else can confirm or disprove the 85% number, if that's even possible. But it seems reasonable enough.
Old 08-09-10, 09:33 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by Josh Z
The 4:3 version of that shot is just bad composition. The 1.85:1 version puts the focus on Janet Leigh and makes it much clearer that Perkins' face is supposed to be out of frame. The shot works much better at 1.85:1.
That's a good point. The reason I made that Vertigo challenge is that is not how Hitch composes a shot in widescreen. While filmmakers in the current day will cut off heads left and right, Hitch didn't do that (I don't think he did it once in Vertigo).

Which leaves us with rather sloppy composition in Psycho or something else afoot.
Old 08-10-10, 12:57 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

My question is why is this the ONLY shot that is being used to try and convince people it was meant to be shot in 4:3? Is this the only shot that is "bad" in framing? If so there really is no argument about open matte or not. I believe the film was meant to be 1.85:1 and I don't care if the BD is going to be in 1.85:1, that's the way I want it. Also that particular shot as another poster said, the focus is on Janet Leigh, not Anthony Perkins. Perkins was much taller than Leigh and it would make sense to cut him off in order to get her in frame and give her enough head room as well as still getting Perkins in the shot a little. Could you imagine how much empty space there would be above her head if Perkins' head was fully in frame as well?
Old 08-10-10, 01:45 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by The Monkees
My question is why is this the ONLY shot that is being used to try and convince people it was meant to be shot in 4:3? Is this the only shot that is "bad" in framing? If so there really is no argument about open matte or not. I believe the film was meant to be 1.85:1 and I don't care if the BD is going to be in 1.85:1, that's the way I want it. Also that particular shot as another poster said, the focus is on Janet Leigh, not Anthony Perkins. Perkins was much taller than Leigh and it would make sense to cut him off in order to get her in frame and give her enough head room as well as still getting Perkins in the shot a little. Could you imagine how much empty space there would be above her head if Perkins' head was fully in frame as well?
Because almost every other shot in the movie, if shown unmatted, would make it painfully obvious that the movie is meant to be matted.

The dude on that blog thinks he's right, so he was very selective in only getting shots that support his opinion. Hell, even a few of the shots he picked have massive headroom with open mattes.

Old 08-10-10, 02:06 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by Bob_Bobbson
Because almost every other shot in the movie, if shown unmatted, would make it painfully obvious that the movie is meant to be matted.

The dude on that blog thinks he's right, so he was very selective in only getting shots that support his opinion. Hell, even a few of the shots he picked have massive headroom with open mattes.

Yes and we all know how Hitch wouldn't compose for headroom above the actor that was the focus of the shot in his undisputed widescreen releases ... right? Said less sarcastically ... Hitch was the master at creating tension by having actors NOT at eye level to each other and used a variety of techniques to accomplish that and get both faces in the shot. If you wish to watch a virtual waltz of different eye levels watch the dance that Scottie and Gavin Elster (two tall men) do in Elster's office in Vertigo. It should be required viewing for every Hitch 102 class.




Old 08-10-10, 02:09 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

You are still wrong.
Old 08-10-10, 02:13 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by ctyankee
Yes and we all know how Hitch wouldn't compose for headroom above the actor that was the focus of the shot in his undisputed widescreen releases ... right? Said less sarcastically ... Hitch was the master at creating tension by having actors NOT at eye level to each other and used a variety of techniques to accomplish that and get both faces in the shot. If you wish to watch a virtual waltz of different eye levels watch the dance that Scottie and Gavin Elster (two tall men) do in Elster's office in Vertigo. It should be required viewing for every Hitch 102 class.




The amount of headspace in all four of those shots you used is much closer to the 1.85:1 framing of Psycho than the open matte framing.
Old 08-10-10, 04:22 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by droidguy1119
The amount of headspace in all four of those shots you used is much closer to the 1.85:1 framing of Psycho than the open matte framing.
What? In the 1.85:1 framing of Psycho, you would be lucky to fit Vera's hairline or forehead above her head in the shots we've discussed.

In the 1.85:1 Vertigo shots posted, in all shots Kim Novak's full head would fit above her head in the frame, sometimes twice. It's not even close.

Old 08-11-10, 01:28 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by ctyankee
Yes and we all know how Hitch wouldn't compose for headroom above the actor that was the focus of the shot in his undisputed widescreen releases ... right? Said less sarcastically ... Hitch was the master at creating tension by having actors NOT at eye level to each other and used a variety of techniques to accomplish that and get both faces in the shot. If you wish to watch a virtual waltz of different eye levels watch the dance that Scottie and Gavin Elster (two tall men) do in Elster's office in Vertigo. It should be required viewing for every Hitch 102 class.




That's all well and good, except that, in the most recent example posted, there aren't two people in the shot. There's only one person.



Do you have examples of Hitchcock framing single-person shots with this much empty headroom?
Old 08-11-10, 01:47 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by ctyankee
What? In the 1.85:1 framing of Psycho, you would be lucky to fit Vera's hairline or forehead above her head in the shots we've discussed.

In the 1.85:1 Vertigo shots posted, in all shots Kim Novak's full head would fit above her head in the frame, sometimes twice. It's not even close.

Sorry. To clarify, in 3 of those shots it looks like Stewart is the focus of the shot, not Novak, because Stewart is speaking, or at the very least the focus is split between both of them and Hitch frames to fit both of them. The Psycho shot being referenced, as has been mentioned, Janet Leigh is the speaker/focus.
Old 08-11-10, 04:40 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by Josh Z
That's all well and good, except that, in the most recent example posted, there aren't two people in the shot. There's only one person.



Do you have examples of Hitchcock framing single-person shots with this much empty headroom?
Sure do.




Old 08-11-10, 07:36 PM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

UK dvdbeaver review: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare6/psycho.htm

should be the same disc right?
Old 08-12-10, 12:04 AM
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Re: Psycho 50th Anniversary BD

Originally Posted by riotinmyskull
UK dvdbeaver review: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/DVDCompare6/psycho.htm

should be the same disc right?
I hope so. This looks awesome.

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