VHS?! LD, good sir!

LOL I said "AT THIS POINT." Criterion has a group of dedicated buyers (I'm one of them) that buy on DVD and many (including myself) are happy to move to Blu Ray - that's why the numbering is the way it is, which is what the original discussion was about. I don't see someone buying a PS3 and decide to exclusively begin collecting Criterion Blu Rays and not their DVDs whether they are a serious film fan or not.

Pro-B, one minute he'll be criticizing Criterion. Stating that nearly every Criterion DVD release has a better alternate version overseas then the next he'll be championing them as the beacon of hope amongst a sea of struggling independent distribs.

I am a bit confused. I addressed your post precisely because, as I thought, you apparently believe that anyone without a Criterion disc in their collection and a brand new PS3 isn't likely to begin collecting these releases (there are actually people in this very thread who apparently prior to the Criterion announcement have never owned or had any interest in the distrib's output, yet they plan on testing them). Why? Is there a generational barrier of some sort? There are plenty of members on other forums, very young ones, with PS3 who have never ever owned a Criterion DVD and they are set to experiment with their Blu-ray discs. This is why I addressed your post - it was so dismissive it wasn't even funny. And no, this isn't a personal post.

I am simply appalled that some of you continue to believe that Blu-ray is a format where age and film-preference stereotypes are the two norms. I don't know if you are fluent in a language other than English but if you are take a look at some of the other big forums. The PS3 is being used by plenty of non-gamers.

It seems to me the only insulted person here is you, given how you reacted when I disagreed with you. And I certainly wasn't micro-analyzing your post. I wanted to point out that things are not as black and white, and as confined, as you seem to believe. If they were, and you were correct, I am most certain Criterion would not bother releasing Blu-ray versions of their films to sell only to those who already own their DVDs, and are looking to possibly upgrade. There is a whole new generation of film enthusiasts out there and while you and I may not fully understand their interest in cinema, or gaming, to pretend that they do not exist and won't be willing to collect the films you and I apparently like is quite naive.

Pro-B

Luke, I see you frequent the Criterion forum all the time. And I see that you participate in the discussions there. So, you should know very well whether or not what you have written above is true. Or, whether or not it has any relevance to Criterion's Blu-ray output.

A better alternative does not necessarily equate significant improvement. Take for example window-boxing. I've seen you participate in threads where the issue is being addressed. And you know that people are split on it. For some it is worth avoiding Criterion's SDVDs because of it, for others it isn't. The same goes for the color-timings on their Studio Canal releases. Add to the mix their Fellini discs, etc.

And yes, regardless of their past record, they remain the most respected independent distributor for a reason. They also offer a variety of world cinema titles which no other independent distrib could match. Most importantly, they have always been willing to evolve. As you could see, there are plenty of reasons why one would want to champion them.

Take care,

Pro-B

I'm not going fight. Maybe I flew off the handle. We'll leave it at that. But I agree with this statement. Yes at "some point" new film enthusiasts will be purchasing the blu rays only. We aren't there yet. But yes message boards like this and your postings can only help get the word out there about these great titles.

My whole explanation for the numbering system was that Criterion is keeping the numbering because of the current collectors. It makes them happy.

How do you feel about the numbering? Because that's how this whole thing started.

You can't possibly think ALL Criterions (in print) will ever be re-released in Blu. The future film enthusiast may at some point have to track down some standard def DVDs.

:) It is not about fighting, no worries. I get passionate about what you mentioned because there were so many opportunities that were missed along the way from LD to VHS to DVD. This time around, if you really care about seeing timeless cinema as it was meant to be seen by its creators, the pieces of the puzzle are in place. There are very, very few excuses the studios could come up with, especially the independents, when it comes to proper treatments that all you need is proper education and encouragement. This wasn't the case with VHS and DVD - as an enthusiast you could have been perfectly educated, knowledgeable, and informed of the market and you would still be confined within a very tiny niche where quality is questionable at best. DVD started a few things right but there wasn't enough tech-muscle there.

I really do not want to rewind and go back into old arguments but for once we can have it right (I mean it from the bottom of my heart). I know there are a lot of people on this forum who dislike me and believe that I have/had different motives to be so passionate about what is happening now and where we could head but suffice to say this is a once in a life time opportunity. Some of the kids probably do not realize it because it all happened for them so easily - with DVD the road was very clear and it could only get better.

It would have been a mistake to start the entire collection from scratch. There are simply a lot of films that they would not have been able to work on. Best case scenario, they would have had two different collections with two different numberings. Which would have destroyed their current fan base and alienated many. This is the right thing to do - gradually begin to release whatever you could on Blu-ray. You have to be inclusive not exclusive of film enthusiasts.

I don't want to use cliched statements but I really do not keep track of the numbers. I hope people appreciate and support Criterion for what they provide to the community, not for their desire to keep the collection numbers intact.

You are correct. I have actually mentioned in a number of threads that it is simply not feasible for them to do so. They own a lot of product through Janus but they also licensed a lot of films through third parties so more or less they are also dependent on other restoration houses.

Have a good week,

Pro-B

Pro-B, you think that people who didn't buy Criterion DVDs are going to buy their BDs? Why? I could understand if they're just now starting to buy movies on any format, but not if they're DVD veterans. Why would Criterion's titles suddenly appeal to them now because they're on BD? Is it because they have the chance to collect them all now, whereas they missed that chance on DVD?

As for the numbering, it's insignificant to me, but they should have had new numbers if any. It was a separate collection on DVD from laserdisc, so why not start a new one on BD? I don't think many mix their BDs with their DVDs anyway.

Cool, I think in some ways you are the ultimate optimist around here about Blu Ray. LD worked pretty well for what was available to 2% of the market. Loved the LD days. But at the time I was seeking out current foreign films and Hollywood classics. Your experience was probably different.

DVD has achieved wonders in penetration and titles. Never would have imagined that in the early 90s in my wildest dreams. Maybe the ball was dropped sometimes on the source material, but overall I can't complain too much.

Blu Ray is a chance to get it right, but I'm afraid it will always be something. (DNR? 16x9?) I have faith in Criterion though and I'm happy to buy there offerings whenever they interest me. I'm showing my support by buying all the first releases. I have a couple already on DVD. Don't care for Bottle Rocket though I enjoy all other Wes Anderson films. And I'm not crazy about the aspect ratio revisionism of Last Emperor. And I like Wong Kar Wai's films (except Blueberry Nights) and I'm buying Chungking Express blind. I know I will love it.

And yes spine numbers I can take or leave. I regularly cull my non Criterion collection and pass off doubles to some of my best friends who aren't as enthusiastic about presentation as I am. For some reason though I never can get rid of Criterion doubles to anyone and just leave them next to the new edition. I don't even have close to all of them. Maybe around 160. Anyway, maybe that's why I am comfortable placing the Blu's next to my existing DVDs in this case.

Whatever path Criterion was going to choose with their Blu releases someone was bound to get upset. Plastic cases vs cardboard. New numbers vs old numbers vs no numbers. Just glad we have the movies.

Not to open this can of worms (and I don't even care for The Last Emperor, personally), but I've often wondered if it's worth having Storaro's signature on the box if it means we lose 17% of the picture and the original framing intent. At what point is "Cinematographer-approved transfer" not a good thing?


Yes, you will. My second-favourite of his and I'm jealous that you get to see it with fresh eyes in HD.

Honestly...? That's what it is in my case. I own a handful of Criterion DVDs, but I rented many, many, many more than I actually bought. I do plan on collecting all of the BDs, though.

The entire numbering deal isn't the issue I have with it. I couldn't care less about the numbering itself since I'm not one of those rabid collector's that's gotta have em all. The issue I do have with not starting a new BR collection from #1 and on is the message it sends with them doing it this way without the numbering. For the leap from LD to DVD, they started over since it was two different forms of media. They showed faith in the DVD format to start over, and customers noticed that, it meant a great deal when Criterion did that. To me it just sucks, especially right now while BR is still trying to get a hold on the market for the long term, that Criterion didn't stand up and make the same stand once again, sending the message that BR is here to stay for this generation.

Like I said before though, these first few batches are likely just a trial run, and once it's more obvious that BR is here to stay they'll more than likely start over at #1, no matter if they say otherwise right now. I just wish they had done it already, just to make a statement that they're in it for the long haul.

I wanted them to stand up like that for HD DVD, when they still had a chance to make a statement. I've felt like the market leadership Criterion displayed in the LD days has been completely absent throughout the DVD generation. It just feels like they pulled up to the DVD money trough and let the big studios take the wheel for a while. I remember how sad I was, looking at the Fight Club special edition DVD with four commentary tracks on it, while Criterion was still giving us 4:3 transfers of widescreen titles. Back in the LD days, Criterion was pushing the envelope for features, value and quality standards in a niche format that must've seen them only squeaking by. I can't blame them for chasing a buck and following the DVD boom and I can't think of a distributor more deserving of a big dessert payday for seeing it through... I just felt like we'd kind of lost a warrior when all the other studios were kicking Criterion's ass. I know Criterion can't afford to compete when the majors are actually trying, but I just wanted to see them at least meeting the features I could get elsewhere. Criterion pioneered letterboxed CAV discs with commentary tracks, but when's the last time we've seen them innovate on features? The HDM changeover is a convenient spot for Criterion to re-assert its leadership, but their conservative approach so far has really disappointed me. What happened to the company that was showing us the way forward? Now they're just waiting for the bandwagon to take off.

[/rant]

Just canceled my "Man Who Feel to Earth" pre-order from Amazon. Just Bottle Rocket for me in these crappy cases. Not spending $27 on a blind-buy in a cheap 1999 case.

Criterion is now renting films from their website which can be streamed. $5 and you could apply that to the purchase of the DVD and BD.

http://gizmodo.com/5098608/new-crite...film-festivals

Can someone kindly direct me to the Criterion forum. I did a search for Criterion, but can't seem to locate it. Thanks in advance.

Then they'll crop up on ebay by the hundreds. Success!

Google "criterion forum" and voilà!

http://www.criterionforum.org/

Thank you. I thought it was a forum within DVDtalk.com.

Like the new website! And there's a Citizen Kane essay from their LD days . . . imagine streaming LD commentaries! Maybe?

And hey I haven't tried it. I'm not even sure if Criterion licensing would allow streaming to me since I am in China right now. But there is an option for full screen on the streaming movies right?

Maybe it's a love/hate relationship then. I always saw you as one that put down Criterion.

I need pics of this packaging.

My opinion is that LD was nothing but a closed system that excluded those who weren't willing to pay the high price-tag. It was not a successful medium regardless of what is being said by those who managed to benefit from it. At best it was a semi-acceptable alternative for a few of us. Thus, I hope that Blu-ray stays as far away from such a market mentality as possible. The manner in which the studios, major and independent, have treated it thus far tells me that they are not willing to develop it as an LD-replica.

I agree with you. Anyone with a properly functioning head could see that your words are true. But times have changed and DVD's run is nearly over. In another thread I mentioned that I see BD overtaking DVD in about 3 years. Once that happens I think that DVD would have roughly 2-3 years left before the studios restructure the market. Only external factors, such as the economic woes we currently face, could reverse the studios' plans to reinvigorate the market with a new revenue-generator.

Maybe, maybe not. I for once believe that with a few very minor exceptions the studios had a terrific start with HD. In 99% of the cases discussed online DNR has not been an issue of concern. In fact, I would go as far as claiming that the overwhelming majority of the critics at AVS for example have absolutely no idea what DNR alteration is - they have lumped a number of different practices under DNR's umbrella and have mostly used it, DNR, for a very specific reason. But this is a different topic. Anyone claiming that proper evaluation of a restored (or unrestored) HD print is possible simply by analyzing screen caps is a charlatan! Ask anyone in the industry who actually has access to the film labs where finalizing is done for a clarification on whether or not this is indeed the case. This being said, yes, there are tiny details that will always be susceptible to manipulation -- color timing, contrast boosting, etc -- but the basics with HD are intact. And that is all that matters at the moment.

I think that a lot of these BDs will be treated as double-dips by those who already own Criterion DVDs (Drexl, I hope this answer your question). If people were willing to upgrade their earlier non-anamorphic Criterion discs (Amarcord, SALO, etc) I don't see why they wouldn't be enticed to follow the same route. Unless, of course, you believe that all Criterion collectors are only interested in SDVD. This is what I assume justified Criterion's numbering stance - the collectors would want the best presentation of a said film with the proper number on it, not the best presentation of a said film on SDVD with the proper number on it. If Criterion, and I for that matter, have misread the collectors then I am certain they would rethink their strategy. Something tells me, however, that they know very well how to read the market.

Absolutely, I agree with you 100%. There are too many critics out there who like to criticize for the sake of criticizing. I am shocked to see that someone would discard a film based on the package it comes with. Especially nowadays, when there are so many alternative ways to shape or design a cover to one's liking. (This comes from someone with very specific views on how a cover should look like).

Pro-B

I am sorry you've gained such a perspective. I know that there are plenty of sites out there, some of them with a strong readership, that provide a type of support Criterion simply does not need. They are good enough to prosper on their own. And I certainly have never praised them without a reason.

I always welcomed ambitious distributors who aspired to match Criterion's high standards. And when they outperformed them I made sure to recognize them. Masters of Cinema, RHV, and Studio Canal are great examples.

Pro-B

That's a shame, because The Man Who Fell To Earth is light years beyond Bottle Rocket. I'm not a fan of the packaging, either, but it wouldn't stop me from owning a great movie in what I'm sure will be a great A/V presentation. I had only ordered The Man Who Fell To Earth when the discs were first announced, anyway, but if I had ordered more, I wouldn't have canceled any because of this.

Oh, I agree that those who bought Criterion DVDs in the past should want to upgrade them to BD. I was referring to an assertion that people who never bought them before would now be interested. That's what I doubt, but again, there are cases where it could happen: those who missed out on collecting because they were too young, or those who weren't exposed to world films at the time. People tend to assume that the BD buying sector is entirely made up of DVD veterans, when some of them may be those who are just at the point where they can collect movies for the first time. That's where I was when DVD hit, and why I didn't have a large VHS/DVD collection.

On the other hand, I have read some comments about certain kinds of movies "not needing to be in HD," such as dialogue-driven films. That could hurt Criterion a little, as some people flock to the action and sci-fi titles over human dramas or arthouse titles. I disagree with this notion, and I think that all films can benefit from HD, but I wonder if it won't be a determining factor.