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Sony CEO Sees 'Stalemate' in Disc Fight

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Sony CEO Sees 'Stalemate' in Disc Fight

Old 11-09-07, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by GatorDeb
Right, I'm referring to BD holding more than HD-DVD. So I guess the answer to my question and what it comes down to is that movies are not big enough yet in order for BD to be superior, so when it comes to quality, both of them are the same quality right now.
In the case of video quality, I'd say yes. Audio quality, like matome mentions, BD has more space so more lossless audio can be included. But this is a big YMMV when listening to audio tracks. Not saying it's not needed, as I want it too, but depending on the mix, you won't hear the benefits as much. Video quality is the big concern, and as to your original question, I'd say yes, both BD and HD DVD are basically the same in quality.
Old 11-09-07, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Grimfarrow
The problem is that most of you are way too zealously biased in this format war to see that, frankly, you guys are 1% in the total market for new media. Sorry, these companies WILL "fuck you in the ass" by abandoning you BD and HDDVD fanatics in a blink of an eye if a new format can be worked out that will capture the rest of the 99%. Who cares about angry fanboys when you have the mass market to capture? And the new format doesn't necessarily have to be disc-based either. But at this rate it most likely won't be either the HD DVD or BD that you all so treasure.

Seriously, you early adopters are used to getting screwed over by new tech anyways. And you will do it again despite it all - these companies know it.
Well, I can't argue on the intentions of companies who want to make money. However, I have benefited a lot just by seeing some of my favorite movies in HD. I can't explain it, but it's worth $15-$20 a disc. It's like watching the movie for the first time, and seeing things never observed in SD DVD.

Every new technology needs early adopters. We give the companies feedback on what works and what doesn't. Like the HD DVD Combos for example. Or load times (still slow but improving). And even as trite as the cases--some HD DVD cases had the insane snapper on the side.

If there were no early adopters, you wouldn't have new products at all, and would still be coveting your deteriorating VHS collection.
Old 11-09-07, 04:26 PM
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I really don't care about getting "fucked in the ass" by the corporations because I only paid $130 for my HD DVD player and I was in the market for an upconverting player anyway...so I feel my loss, even if HD DVD dies tomorrow, is 0.

I'm not spending money a lot of money on movies anyway at this point, but I have picked up a few movies with all these deals for players and selling the player....so there you go..
Old 11-09-07, 04:26 PM
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Which I don't disagree, but the extent to which fanboys of both sides have waged the format war is absolutely sickening. This thread is a perfect example of it. ALL companies are arrogant and go for the bucks - that's what companies do. Just because you are an early adopter of a specific format does not give you the license to puff up your self-importance above J6Pers. It just means you are willing to be a guinea pig to the corporate media/tech conglomerate's little war that ultimately could mean nothing within weeks, if they both decide to scrap both formats and go for a unified one.
Old 11-09-07, 04:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Grimfarrow
Which I don't disagree, but the extent to which fanboys of both sides have waged the format war is absolutely sickening. This thread is a perfect example of it. ALL companies are arrogant and go for the bucks - that's what companies do. Just because you are an early adopter of a specific format does not give you the license to puff up your self-importance above J6Pers. It just means you are willing to be a guinea pig to the corporate media/tech conglomerate's little war that ultimately could mean nothing within weeks, if they both decide to scrap both formats and go for a unified one.
Hi five for somebody finally saying this. Those who want to shit on Sony and talk about their arrogance need to turn their eyes towards the "other" companies and realize that they too do the same thing. It's all about making the dollar and none of us are going to touch that. As a matter of fact our wallets (and purses) are as if they had a vacuum attached to them sucking them dry. I just have to look at what I enjoy, and at this moment I enjoy both formats, and spend my money there. In the end none of us on this board will be winners just people who have spent money on technology. I am thankful however that these movies in high definition cost nowhere near what laserdiscs did back in those days.
Old 11-09-07, 05:22 PM
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Just because we're talking about Sony does not mean "other" companies aren't doing the same thing. But we're talking about Sony here. If you want to start a Toshiba or other company thread, then do it. But this thread is about Sony. Nothing wrong with that.

This thread is an example of a somewhat civil debate. We haven't had that many closed threads here, and most of us are level-headed. However, we don't need some people coming in here, telling us what we should or shouldn't be talking about. That just increases the tension level.

Most of us are either dual-format or HD DVD, if we go by a poll which was recently posted. So, this is probably why you might see the posts about Sony more often. It does not mean other companies are innocent.

However, I do urge you to research Sony's history of making their products proprietary, and mass producing them on the market, hoping to control it. They've done it with MemoryStick, with the special-sized adapters which are unique to Sony's power products, and many other items. It's just not about Blu-ray when you look at the entire picture. We're talking about a history of attempting to control the consumer so they have to pay outrageously high prices for their products.

Last edited by DVD Polizei; 11-09-07 at 05:24 PM.
Old 11-09-07, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dylonius
... Now I'm not saying that HD DVD makes me feel all warm and snuggly and loving, but in my opinion, they have a much less F U attitude. I think they understand business a little better and are applying that to making HD DVD more consumer friendly (cheap) and more accessible.

I just can't help but think Sony's elitist attitude and pride has clouded their judgment on what is best for them in a consumer driven market. They haven't lost yet, but i would like to see that happen to them. Bring on the Betamax!
problem is, Sony was right in the sense that HDMs in a DVD world should be the province of elites who want and demand the quality and more importantly are willing to pay for it.
Everything would have been hunky dory if things just went 'the way they were supposed to'- you kick the new format off by catering to the elites- numbers grow at a small but manageable size as far as production capacity- and higher prices help manage debt incurred in the R&D phase. Then as more and more people are sloooowly acclimated to HD via new displays and the prevelance of cable and the digital switchover- then Bd can afford to the start lowering the price barriers and letting the mainstream consumers in and commoditizing the technology.
that's what was 'supposed' to happen (from their point of view).

But Toshiba didn't relish losing the next gen royalties- so they devloped a quicker simpler alternative. It had no business working as good as it did- but it does- and costs considerably less to implement because rather than chasing pure tech specs, the primary concern seemed to have been that the format model make efficent use of current industrial hardware and know how.

this dove tails into a question another poster was asking about the size difference between them. Bd was intended to make use of the Mpeg2 codec that is used on DVDs. that codec NEEDS space and high bit rates- and if that was the only codec that would ever be designed, then Bd would be without a doubt the superior solution. What happend between conception and birth is what always happens with technology- it improved. New codecs were developed and refined and (as is emblematic of the HD DVD format as a whole) these are simply more efficent at compressing and don't absolutely require that extent of space.
Bandwidth might be another matter...but in limited cases and applications and circumstances.

its like two trunks and two different people packing them. One person has a smaller trunk but is a better packer and gets all his luggage in. The other packs a little sloppier and uses up all his room, or else he changes bags at the last minute and frees up more room, etc.

anyways getting back to the idea of HDMs and 'elites'. I own both formats- and while I enjoy seeing the enthusiasm that massive sales bring- I don't look forward to sharing the technology this early with the newest version of the "I hate black bars" majority. "why is this so grainy, i thought it was suppsed to be HD?", "This is soft...stay away!" "Don't buy that disc, its not good HD!"

I actually sympathize with Sony more than some of my posts would seem to indicate. I just have never felt that their business model was realistic- or flexible enough to roll with problems that were sure to come up (and have).
I think it is ultimately inefficent which is why I don't expect it to be the last format standing- but I would never, EVER, suggest it just "go away" so that the other format can have an easier time of it.
That would be seriously asking for trouble.

Last edited by Paul_SD; 11-09-07 at 05:30 PM.
Old 11-09-07, 05:53 PM
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But by the very fact of Toshiba getting into the market, meant they presented a more cost-efficient way of delivering HD content to movie fans versus a more expensive alternative (why was this path chosen in the first place).

Do you think Sony would have really lowered prices that much over time? I don't have as much enthusiasm as you do, Paul. We'd have BD movies selling at a premium, for $30 or more and maybe even as much as Laserdiscs if Sony was left alone to their own devices.

The fact that Sony did not do what Toshiba did, raises some interesting questions, no? Like maybe Sony wanted as much control over prices as possible? I mean, everywhere I turn I see people posting about Sony, but when you do the research, Sony wasn't looking for a way to be cost-effective. And this tells me, like you have just said, Sony intended HD to be for very few viewers, and absoultely hounding them for the most profits.

Well, the majority of movie studios wouldn't have got on board. It would have been much too small of a segment and way too expensive to make the titles for such a small consumer base. We think HD users are in a small segment now, but just think if Sony was in control of the price and the manufacturing.

I welcome any HD owner, whether they know what black bars are for or not. I don't really care about them. What I care about, is an affordable format. If it means 10 rednecks living in trailer parks have to buy HD DVDs for every 3 average folk, then so be it.
Old 11-09-07, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Just because we're talking about Sony does not mean "other" companies aren't doing the same thing. But we're talking about Sony here. If you want to start a Toshiba or other company thread, then do it. But this thread is about Sony. Nothing wrong with that.

This thread is an example of a somewhat civil debate. We haven't had that many closed threads here, and most of us are level-headed. However, we don't need some people coming in here, telling us what we should or shouldn't be talking about. That just increases the tension level.

Most of us are either dual-format or HD DVD, if we go by a poll which was recently posted. So, this is probably why you might see the posts about Sony more often. It does not mean other companies are innocent.

However, I do urge you to research Sony's history of making their products proprietary, and mass producing them on the market, hoping to control it. They've done it with MemoryStick, with the special-sized adapters which are unique to Sony's power products, and many other items. It's just not about Blu-ray when you look at the entire picture. We're talking about a history of attempting to control the consumer so they have to pay outrageously high prices for their products.
This is the kind of fanboyism that makes this format war drag on. Fine, you have your beef with Sony. Conversely, someone else may have had Toshiba products that failed on them, and consequently they are staunch Blu-ray supporters. But none of these are relevant to the format war because they are PERSONAL BIASES. What we want is for the industry to unite under one format - I could give less crap if it's HD DVD or Blu-Ray, as long as one becomes a standard. Posts such as this only make everyone lose in the end. And believe me, neither Toshiba nor Sony will care in the end that you invested all this time, energy and money on either of these failed formats.

Last edited by Grimfarrow; 11-09-07 at 06:02 PM.
Old 11-09-07, 06:23 PM
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Great. Your personal bias is "I just want one format" Others have different personal biases. Get over it, your opinion isn't any more insightful than the next persons.

And his beef is not with Sony over "failed devices" Its over the indisputable fact that whenver Sony introduces a propietary media format, they jack up the prices beyond the universal standard format. Thats a beef that is lot more relevant than your straw man argument. Blu Ray's whole draw for other CE companies (beyond Sony) is that Sony was going to cut them in on the price gouging and not allow cheapo Blu Ray players.

Last edited by chanster; 11-09-07 at 06:26 PM.
Old 11-09-07, 06:43 PM
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I'm glad all my arguments about ending the fanboy war is having zero effect, as evident from chanster's post above. Well, have fun with your failed format! I will wait out, like 99% of consumers, for the next media format, which at this rate should come out in less than 3-4 years, if you guys keep it up like you are now.
Old 11-09-07, 07:28 PM
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I think for the long haul BD was the choice that I was leaning towards because of a few factors: 1) I liked the higher storage capacity because that would be great once drives for computers come down in cost 2) the extra headroom it has for future tech because the technology will need that extra headroom 3 or 4 years down the line and 3) The potential for future storage capacity.

I think all of us must have lots of music on our discs and would hate for a hard drive failure sometime down the line. I put mine on a separate hard drive, but it would be great if I could just put it on a few discs. I also have a ton of photos that I've scanned from family photo albums that I would like to put on discs, but the idea of burning like 10-15 discs is not something that I want to think about. So I liked the fact that so much data could be put on a BD.

I think the technology for High Def is going to become even more complicated as time progresses so I like the extra bit rate head room available plus the storage capacity on BD.

Also I keep hearing people complain about players becoming obsolete. I'd like to know who is actually using a DVD player that they first bought today? Maybe 5%. I certainly am not. It has problems playing newer discs, it has problems with DVD-RS and other media. So I find it absurd that people are complaining about the first HD players that they first bought. Technology gets better, everyone knows that. Look at the Toshiba players, they had abysmal loading times and have lots of problems with combo discs, but they still came out with new players and people bought them.
Old 11-09-07, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
When did Sony admit they were at a stalemate with HD DVD in the past. I'd love to get that link from yah.

Both sides coming up with a new format? Oh yeah, that'll go over just fine. I'm SURE consumers will be so ready to jump on new totally new format bandwagon after being fucked in the ass.

As I've said earlier, I hope both Sony and Toshiba can work something out, because they will need each other if there is no clear consumer demand for one specific format.

If more
If things stay as they are, Sony and Toshiba are better off teaming up to produce combo players that are spec compliant for both formats and let the studios decide which format they wish to publish a movie on in a title by title basis.
Old 11-09-07, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Grimfarrow
I'm glad all my arguments about ending the fanboy war is having zero effect, as evident from chanster's post above. Well, have fun with your failed format! I will wait out, like 99% of consumers, for the next media format, which at this rate should come out in less than 3-4 years, if you guys keep it up like you are now.
Thanks for the insightful comment.
Old 11-09-07, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by RocShemp
If things stay as they are, Sony and Toshiba are better off teaming up to produce combo players that are spec compliant for both formats and let the studios decide which format they wish to publish a movie on in a title by title basis.
This would be ideal. I hope it happens. I hope that HD DVD has gained enough momentum by the end of the year to make Sony come to the table and discuss two formats, co-existing. It can happen. If Sony wanted to put extra features on BD, that would be fine with me. But at least provide an HD DVD version.
Old 11-09-07, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Grimfarrow
I'm glad all my arguments about ending the fanboy war is having zero effect, as evident from chanster's post above. Well, have fun with your failed format! I will wait out, like 99% of consumers, for the next media format, which at this rate should come out in less than 3-4 years, if you guys keep it up like you are now.
Old 11-09-07, 08:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
This would be ideal. I hope it happens. I hope that HD DVD has gained enough momentum by the end of the year to make Sony come to the table and discuss two formats, co-existing. It can happen. If Sony wanted to put extra features on BD, that would be fine with me. But at least provide an HD DVD version.
Two formats ideal? Why? I think what would be ideal is for both formats to tank and a 3rd neutral format to arise. Neither side should benefit from this hi-def pissing contest.
Old 11-09-07, 08:39 PM
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Because Sony is never going to cave-in to a 3rd format. It would be a disaster anyway, as I've stated earlier. Consumer confidence in HD would probably go out the window and sales would stagnate, resulting in a doomed format.

If Sony wants to make their own, let'em. But offer both formats.

Why do I say this? Previous experience. Sony never offered CF or SD slots on their cameras until recently. They were exclusively MemoryStick. Now, they offer memory slots for just about every media format. Why? Because consumers demanded it, and they knew if they didn't support other media formats, their sales were going to other camera manufacturers.
Old 11-09-07, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DVD Polizei
Because Sony is never going to cave-in to a 3rd format. It would be a disaster anyway, as I've stated earlier. Consumer confidence in HD would probably go out the window and sales would stagnate, resulting in a doomed format.

If Sony wants to make their own, let'em. But offer both formats.

Why do I say this? Previous experience. Sony never offered CF or SD slots on their cameras until recently. They were exclusively MemoryStick. Now, they offer memory slots for just about every media format. Why? Because consumers demanded it, and they knew if they didn't support other media formats, their sales were going to other camera manufacturers.
How many cameras do you know of that offer more than one memory slot? It was their own camera so they had the right to use their own memory. I don't see the big whoop in this or any reason to hate on Sony for this.
Old 11-09-07, 11:15 PM
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Wow...I thought Blu-ray had won? At least thats what they keep telling us every 3 weeks. I also kept hearing "Spider-Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Man," for the past 9 months...and that barley sold more then Transformers, to a format that has only 500k players compared to the 3-4 Million Blu-ray does. This admission, to me, clearly shows they dug themselves deep into a hole, went from #1 in the video game console market to dead last...just for this movie format.
Old 11-09-07, 11:41 PM
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Just for clarrification: I did not post this thread for the sake of blasting Sony. That is why I decided to leave my commentary out of the first post. I was more interested in reading the reactions given past statements.

I figured commentary such as this, out of a Sony CEO, is a tell-tell sign that everyone in the industry is starting to admit they fucked up, and are now stuck with two formats until they die off.

The other point that I felt was interesting is the comments made about going back in time to fix the situation. I really think we are seeing some political fighting right now inside Sony, and probably a lot of finger pointing as to who to blame.

I do agree 100% with Stringer about the PS3. The market share SCEI is risking over the HD debacle just doesn't seem worth it.
Old 11-10-07, 12:02 AM
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Originally Posted by dsa_shea
How many cameras do you know of that offer more than one memory slot? It was their own camera so they had the right to use their own memory. I don't see the big whoop in this or any reason to hate on Sony for this.
You're missing the point. You're apparently unaware of how Sony and their MemoryStick suffered, and how they changed their hardware to accept OTHER formats on their cameras.
Old 11-10-07, 12:04 AM
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Just to balance things out (and this is coming from an HD DVD supporter) if Sony is going through a finger-pointing session within their corporate walls, Toshiba must be going through the same issues as well. The recent 90k players sold notwithstanding, I doubt Toshiba has turned up a higher profit than Sony (assuming either has profited at all) at this stage. Both sides must be really hurting financially right now.
Old 11-10-07, 12:44 AM
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Originally Posted by DthRdrX
I figured commentary such as this, out of a Sony CEO, is a tell-tell sign that everyone in the industry is starting to admit they fucked up, and are now stuck with two formats until they die off.
FuckedÖ?

I asked earlier why is it that in the heads of HDDVD supporters SONY is the only company that matters? Panasonic/Matsushita, TDK, Phillips, etc. are just as entrenched in this war. In fact, did anyone from the red camp conclude that it is time for HDDVD to concede after the most recent article about Microsoft not being interested in the war was published? Matsushita alone are a ten times bigger player than SONY is.

I am not in a position to make any definitive statements as I donít have the supporting data the CEOs have access to but some sort of resolution will be achieved in 2008. I donít see how the two formats can co-exist and I have every reason to believe that those who relate them to us, studios and retailers, will not be willing to tolerate the current status quo indefinitely. That is why I have repeatedly pointed out that Q4 will be decisive especially for retailers as I think that the stronger push for resolution will come from them, not the studios.

Furthermore, I donít see stalemate as a possible scenario here (for the record, I sense that there is a great deal of confusion amongst some on this forum which equates stalemate to a draw Ė stalemate, if this is the term Stringer indeed used, implies deadlock, which as of today translates in a solid 2:1 sales advantage for the Blu camp). Why? Because SDVD is a peaked format and another physical format, much to the dislike of Microsoft, will have to replace it. At this point downloading as a viable option for studios and retailers, or a magical third format for that matter, is pure fiction.

Ciao,
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Old 11-10-07, 01:00 AM
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Originally Posted by GizmoDVD
Wow...I thought Blu-ray had won? At least thats what they keep telling us every 3 weeks. I also kept hearing "Spider-Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Man, Spider-Man," for the past 9 months...and that barley sold more then Transformers, to a format that has only 500k players compared to the 3-4 Million Blu-ray does. This admission, to me, clearly shows they dug themselves deep into a hole, went from #1 in the video game console market to dead last...just for this movie format.
This is the disaster for Sony. They (as part of the Blu-ray Group) still can win this war, but it will take time and money and even then Blu-ray may remain a niche product. To get Blu-ray in the PS3 they had to delay its release and raise its cost. It has lost them their lion's share of the video game business and I don't think Blu-ray licensing fees will ever recover that loss.

They were "the" console for two generations and Blu-ray has put them a distant third this gen. Stringer has done a lot of good as CEO and has brought back their CE business overall, but I don't see them saving the video game section for this generation of consoles.

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