How big is the difference in PCM 5.1?
 

I just mistakenly bought an HDMI receiver that only passes the sound to the tv & doesn't play the PCM 5.1 track. I'm wondering what kind of difference will the PCM make? My upstairs is all large Infiniti speakers, but the basement is medium sized Infinit & Polk speakers. They're definitely not small & are very loud. But will I even notice a difference? The basement is where I wanted it since I can be much louder without waking the wife & kids. With this Sony receiver I had it extremely loud & it was still perfectly clear. But I want to make sure it's even going to make a noticeable difference before taking this one back. I could never really tell the difference between the SACD, DVD-Audio (both used the 6 seperate cables & was PCM or higher bit) & DTS cds or DD 5.1 music. Is this the same, or is the difference much bigger?

There is a definite difference in detail and clarity, as well as separation.

Yes, the difference is huge. If you happen to get a receiver that can accept the PCM track do a comparison between it and the compressed tracks. It returns the loss in sound quality I experienced when I went from uncompressed laserdisc audio to the compressed audio on DVD (especially Pro-Logic tracks).

:up:

Listen to the PCM track on the Black Hawk Down BD and you'll instantly love uncompressed PCM audio.

But is the difference noticeable on any level system, or do you guys have huge, expensive speakers? I got my downstairs Infinitis(fronts) free with the upstairs set, and the Polks are 100 watt ($130 for center, $140 for rear set). The Infinits are comparable in size to the Polks- maybe larger. So, not using $1000 dollar speakers, will I still notice a difference?

It should be noticeable on any speakers. As I said, the biggest difference is in clarity and detail.

I didn't A-B it with the DD 5.1 track on the Blu-ray disc, but the PCM track on Chicago blows away the DTS track on the original SD-DVD release. One of these days I'll A-B Black Hawk Down, Pearl Harbor, and Tears of the Sun.

If you didn't hear any improvement with DVD-Audio or SACD over standard CDs, you may find the same with uncompressed PCM or the lossless codecs on HD discs. The basic principle is the same, a lossless representation of the original audio master recording. If anything, the difference between music recordings should be much greater than the difference between movie soundtracks.

The fact is that many people's hearing is simply not sensitive enough to discern subtle difference in audio formats. As we get older, we lose the ability to hear frequencies that our ears used to be able to receive. There's even a cell phone ring tone available now that people over 30 can't hear, which teenagers use when they don't want their parents or teachers to notice them getting calls.

There's also the fact that 95% of all "audiophile" science is complete bullshit, and that even people with self-proclaimed "golden ears" can't reliably identify the differences between two different recordings in double-blind testing. The majority of the time, simply increasing the volume will fool a listener into hearing a dramatic improvement in audio quality.

So take all that for what it's worth. If you're really concerned about this and can get a better receiver for a comparable amount of money, go for it. But if you honestly couldn't tell what the fuss was about DVD-Audio or SACD and it would cost you a bundle to upgrade to a higher-end receiver, set your priorities accordingly.

I can hear a difference from regular cds & SACD, it was SACDs & Dvd-Audio that sounded the same as DTS cds & 5.1 music. If anything I thought DTS cds sounded fuller than the SACDs. Which is why I was wondering if it was really alot better than regular DTS. This reveiver is 110 watts/channel & it looks like the other HDMIs are like 80/channel. Will they still be as loud?

How close to the maximum do you crank it? :)

I could tell the difference between different mp3 encodings on good quality PC speakers (Yamahas). I could tell a slight difference in quality when I switched my old Yamaha receiver with a new Harman Kardon one. I could not, however, tell much of a difference between DD+ and DD-Lossless tracks, or DTS and DD+.

But we all know you should be able to hear the quality of PCM on TV speakers, right? :)

but how does BR's PCM track compare to the SACD version? - :D

Right, but that's only because you refuse to have a 5.1 setup because you want to be a good neighbor. ;)

This is all very true and one reason why SACDs never had a chance. I like to think I can tell the difference between SACDs and CDs, but I wonder if I could really pass a double blind test myself. In most cases I like the classical SACDs more for the surround mix more than anything.

I've done a lot of A-B testing with regular DVDs and HD DVDs and when you do the A-B thing the differences in video and audio are pretty easy to see and hear. However, this doesn't change the fact that most movies I have watched in regular DVD have been very enjoyable and when drawn into the film I really had no complaints about the sound or video. When I watched Corpse Bride again in HD DVD I really don't remember enjoying it more than when I watched it on regular DVD or at the theaters.

Wanting the best possible audio and needing it I think can be two different things.

It's too bad my Sony player can't downgrade the PCM to 5.1 over optical. I have my only analog inputs taken up by the HD-A1, and I don't have HDMI on my receiver.

I have yet to find a decent switch box for 5.1 analog inputs, and the difference in output level from HD-A1 and BDP-S1 would likely result in the need for separate settings on the receiver for each player.

PCM 5.1 downgraded to 2.0 and decoded by Dolby Pro Logic II is already awesome and better than the discreet 5.1. I can imagine how awesome the full 5.1 is.

No, but you probably won't be able to hear the difference.

The maximum wattage your receiver pushes has no bearing on the loudness of your speakers, their efficiency determines that. Efficiency is usually listed as something like 90dB @ 1W, which means when driving your speakers with 1 watt of power, the deliver 90 decibels of sound at a distance of one meter*. Everytime you double the wattage you experience a +3dB gain.

So if you were driving your speakers at 65W, doubling the power to 110W would only increase the volume +3dB. Your 80W reciever will have a maximum volume level about 2.5dB lower than your 110W receiver.


*Everytime you double the listening distance from your speaker you experience a 3dB loss.

Well, not NO bearing. The rest of your post details it well, but obviously the power of the receiver matters. The real problem is that the rating printed on the marketing material is usually pointless, and needs to be modified to compare receivers to each other.

There is a flaw in this logic. CDs are already uncompressed.
Therefore there will be a larger difference with movie soundtracks, for sure.

Fidelity is much more important in music. Your ears aren't as sensitive to differences in dialogue or sound effects.

However, don't forget that most movie soundtracks also include music. ;)

I am in the same boat as you, or at least I will be when I take possession of my Pioneer Elite BDP-HD1 tonight. I am waiting to upgrade to an HDMI 1.3 A/V receiver later this year.

The best switch box for 5.1 analog inputs I've seen is the Zektor HDS4.1, but it is a little pricey at $259. http://www.zektor.com/hds41/index.html

The difference in output level between our two players might prove too much of a hassle anyway, as you pointed out. I'm not sure my receiver, a Pioneer Elite VSX-49Txi, even has the ability to save two different settings.

Not only that, but CD audio is really not much better than decent Dolby Digital or standard DTS. They can match CD's dynamic range and come very close on sound quality. CD (16/44 PCM) is not great audio. Bumping to 24/96 PCM is a huge step.

Wouldn't it be possible to use simple Y-splitters, such as a mono-stereo adapter, to use the receiver analog inputs for two sources?:
http://www.monoprice.com/products/pr...ormat=2&style=

I was hoping to take this approach when I get a BD player someday since I am not about to replace my otherwise functional receiver to get HDMI audio inputs.

So far as different output levels are concerned, the A1 analog output can be adjusted as to timing and volume matching each speaker. If the Sony BDP-1 can do the same, the only difference ought to be overall volume, a simple thing to adjust at the receiver depending on which player one is using.