720p vs 1080p (or Night vs Day)
 

Last weekend, I showed up to my local Best Buy to check out the new Pioneer BDP-HD1. I made my way back to the Magnolia section where they had the player connected to a Pioneer PRO-FHD1. The guy was calibrating the monitor when I arrived, so I waited until he was done then asked a rep if I could put in my copy of Terminator 2 (I was fully prepared to demo the unit) to see what it could do.

The scene I always demo from that movie, is the big rig chase right at the beginning. I love that scene as it combines fast action with close-ups and fast cuts. So I watched the scene and pretty much fell in love with that display. The image was like looking through a window (I know; overused but accurate).

Fast forward to this weekend, where I strolled to my local electronics store where they had their Pioneer BDP-HD1 connected to a Pioneer PRO-1140HD (again, calibrated a few weeks back when they got the player in). I was actually there to check out how the different types of displays handled the heavy blacks in Unforgiven, but I brought along T2 just in case I wanted to get a different demo. Turns out I really want the PRO-HD1... anyone need a kidney?

Anyway, I decided to check out the PRO-1140HD against what I saw the week before on the PRO-HD1 (to see how much difference there would be between the 1080p of the HD1 and the 768p of the 1140HD).

The difference was like night and day.

The same scene looked blurry and flat. I couldn't believe that I was actually watching the same disc on the same player. Sure, it looked like an HD movie, but not drastically better than what I have seen on my local cable feed. The same scene in 1080p was just absolutely stunning.

So I'm completely removed all the 720p (or 768p) TVs from my search - and I suggest you do as well. If you aren't watching Blu-ray or HD DVD at 1080p, you aren't seeing anything close to the whole picture.

I agree. For my HT and living room, I took 720 out of my mind some time ago. But I put it back in for the bedroom.

But determining this at Best Buy frightens me. Also, I'd say under 30" there won't be much need, 720 should be fine unless you just want to be anal. That's why I changed my mind back for the bedroom, which will never go over 26" for me, if that big.

I'm just waiting for an affordable 1080 to be available for me to upgrade my HT. Currently sitting at $4500, well out of my price range.

I haven't taken the time to see the difference, but you have confirmed what I suspected. Unfortunately, I don't want to drop the money on a 1080p projector just yet, and I can't ever go back to a tv screen that is under 100" (actually, I don't think I could go back under my current 122"). But I do expect to be amazed some day when the price of the 1080p projectors get to a point where I have to make an upgrade.

If Sony keeps driving the FP market down in price we might have affordable 1080p projection in 1-2 years.

I hope so.

"While this isn't the most scientific test, both Katzmaier and I agreed that, after scanning through Mission: Impossible III for an hour, it would be very difficult--practically impossible--for the average consumer to tell the difference between a high-definition image displayed on a 1080p-capable TV and one with lower native resolution at the screen sizes mentioned above [under 50"]. At larger screen sizes, the differences might become somewhat more apparent, especially if you sit close to the screen."

So krdave might still benefit from a 1080 projector, as may some others with larger than 50" displays. Also, the article never mentions the distance they're viewing the TVs at, which is problematic for determining if you're one of the ones that sits closer than they did.

For a projector I totally agree. For a standard 50" HDTV I'm not convinced the difference is going to be that dramatic. It will probably depend on the quality of the display. I did end up choosing 1080i myself when choosing a TV a couple of years ago, but that was more because of the higher cost of fixed pixel displays. I was pretty happy with the image quality of 720p.

Viewing distance is also major. From my normal viewing distance I am completely unable to see a difference in 1080i and 1080p.

I have a slightly older 57" 1080i or 540p Toshiba. It is fine for now. I see a huge difference between DVD and HD-DVD and I know one day all these HD-DVD are going to look better on a better display. I have my eye on the Sony Pearl or its replacement for the theater room I hope to build in the next few years.

100% agree. With my setup, viewing distance and TV owned, switching to 1080p would have a very minimal effect. Sure motion would look a little more fluid but its not a problem at all. I am honestly 100% content with my Pioneer plasma using 1080i. I wont be upgrading until my current set is toast which is hopefully 4-5 years down the road. 1080p, except when talking about very large screen sizes, is really more hype than real noticable improvment. My buddy has a 1080p display and it doesnt look any better than my display, in fact there are times I prefer my display over his and he has a top of the line Sony rear display.

The studios are just hyping 1080p because its the latest thing that separates the best from the rest and its the resolution that everyone is shooting for quality wise. If you have a 55" or bigger set or use a projector then by all means get 1080p, otherwise save your money and settle for 1080i until prices for 1080p come much much further down. The price increase for getting 1080p for anything below 55" just isnt worth it. If you have a quality set, 1080i looks absolutly stunning.

PS..

That article tested the difference between 1080p and 1080i output for BD, mainly. That doesn't mean anything. They don't even seem to mention that the Samsung player converts to i and then back to p. And I think they only really tested this on 2 of the 1080 TVs, since only those take a 1080p signal in the first place.

PS,
The choices are 720p and 1080p, not 1080i and 1080p. CRT is the only tech that uses interlaced and it is going away. Your Pioneer plasma is 720/768p, not sure which model you have.

I have a Pioneer PDP5060 and I use it exclusivly in 1080i. Not sure what your talking about. I havent used the 720p setting even once since I purchased it and noticed the huge difference between 720p and 1080i. Again I dont know what your talking about. My Pioneer has 1080i and it kills the 720p setting quality wise. Of course my plasma is 720p as its not 1080p but it has 1080i and that is the only setting I use.

PS..

PS,

Plasma is a fixed pixel display, meaning that there are only so many pixels on the screen - which will give you your native resolution. Your TV is 1280 x 768, so your native resolution is 768p. So even if you are feeding your display a 1080i signal, you are still seeing 768p.

1080i is an input for you, not an output. Fixed panel TVs can only display one resolution, everything else is the processing. I believe the 5060 is a 1366x768 panel, but I can't find the specs quickly. Most people do tend to prefer the 1080i output of upconverting DVD players and HDDVD/BD players, even on 720/768 TVs.

I presume you have set 1080i on your sources, not the TV. TVs generally auto-sense the input and process accordingly.

But none of this means much to a comparison of a 7xx TV to a 1080 TV, which is what joshd started the thread about.

(apparently I type slower than josh ;))

Of course its an input. Both of the DVD players I use have 1080i output and thats what I use. I dont watch TV. Bottom line is 1080i input to my TV looks much much better than 720p. And like I said above my TV playing at 1080i lookks absoultly stunning and I dont see much of a difference bewteen my set and my friends Sony 1080p, I actually prefer my TV picture alot of the times.

My entire point was to not buy 1080p if your going to buy a TV smaller than 55" because you can get a TV that looks almost the same for much cheaper. The difference between 1080p and an input device playing 1080i on a 720p (Is that better?) is very minimal and not worth the price difference.

And since I dont respond directly to Josh anymore ill just say this. Of course Plasma's have a set number of pixels, lol. The day Plasma TV's can magically change the number of pixels it has will be a very intersting day indeed.

PS..

Your TV can't "play" at 1080i - only at its native resolution of 768p. The input resolution is irrelevant to the subject at hand (which is why I used a common source). The difference was the display resolution - which I saw a huge gap in performance from.

Ok its now apparant to me that I can no longer even comment inside a thread that Josh started as he will feel absolutly obligated to be, well himself. Your nitpicking at people correctness in use of thier terminology could be almost as annoying as your blind bias toward Sony.

This really will be my last responce to you as I will avoid ever single thread you make or post you make to avoid having to have any type of discussion with you.

I made it perfectly clear I was refering to a device inputting 1080i on a 720p display. Again I made this perfectly clear in my last post so please Josh. Your pathetic attempts at trying to look smart are just that pathetic.

Once again Bye Bye to you. Its just sad that I have to avoid threads now altogether in order to keep away from your pathetic comments aimed at me. Too bad you couldnt just take a hint and not respond to me like I so obviously said I wasnt going to with you for the betterment of these boards. People dont want to read BS comments like these between people. Too bad you couldnt leave well enough alone but that is just another redeeming quality about you, lol

PS...

Do 768p sets stretch 720p signals into that extra space?

Why is this such a common resolution when it's essentially non-standard?

:lol:

lol, god what is it with some people on message boards. It really boggles my mind. Do people just wake up some days and say, you know what, I feel like being an ^&%#$@ on a public message board.

Like I said, I specificially sai I was referring to a 1080i device playing on a 720p display. Its right above Josh's post so think whatever you want BigDaddy. Your opinion means literally zero to me.

PS...

By the way BigDaddy why did you end up going back and erasing your entire messege but the smily face?

Yup. 720 isn't part of the "VGA Standard", and the closest to it is XGA (which i 1024 x 768). That is a 4:3 resolution (even though it is used with 16:9 displays) so if you convert that to 16:9 its 1366 x 768 (or sometimes 1365 x 768). I'm not sure if that was ever named or not. If anything, you can blame LCD for forcing the weird pixel sizes.

LCD typically uses 1280x720, right? I thought 1366x768 was primarily used for plasmas.

Nope. Plasmas were originally the 720 users. I think you'll have a difficult time finding a 720 LCD. Most use 768. At least, Sony, Samsung, and Sharp all use that size - not sure about the rest.

Edit: I believe LCD RP use 720.

The signal will be scaled up to 768p, but this doesn't usually involve "stretching" in the sense of altering the picture geometry.

Either way, it'd probably be too small to notice.