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-   -   PS3 and HDMI problems (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/hd-talk/464670-ps3-hdmi-problems.html)

kvrdave 05-07-06 11:48 PM

PS3 and HDMI problems
 
This was posted in the game forum, but I thought it would be good to post it here as well. Undoubtedly it will stimulate some good conversation. :)
---------------------------------------------


Originally Posted by Jimmy 345
Not true. The Playstation 2 may have been a pretty lousy DVD player but it was still far better then a VCR and got a lot of people to switch over.

I agree with that, but DVD to BR (or HD-DVD) is not nearly the leap that DVD was from VHS. It is much more similar to the leap from CD to SACD, with the exception that most of us are better at noticing differences visually rather than audibly. If BR were as big a leap from DVD as DVD was from VHS, then I think Sony would be in great shape. But if the PS3 doesn't have the little things that actually make HD great, it won't matter as much. Here is an example, but hopefully they get it figured out.


San Jose (CA) - Last week, Sony announced to launch its Playstation 3 in November and blamed the delay on technical problems such as the ongoing work to finalize Blu-ray's copy protection technology AACS. At GDC we got a glimpse how far the PS3 may be still away from production, as Sony was not able to run the console through HDMI at 1080p resolution.

One of the reasons to buy an Xbox 360 or an upcoming Playstation 3 is the fact that Microsoft and Sony promise the beginning of a high definition gaming era - a new stage for gaming that will bringer higher-quality audio and video to the screen. On 15 March, Sony conceded that it was forced to delay the launch of its contender because a series of technology delays. The console has been touring the country for more than a year - without being actually demonstrated in detail - and it was our expectation that we will see at GDC a version that would come close to a production unit - as Sony will have to start mass-producing the console in late summer.

In fact, Sony had a few consoles on display at GDC, which were demonstrating video and audio demos. But surprisingly, these boxes were showing hardly any of the PS3's expected capability, including a screen feed that was not delivered through the HDMI interface, but through Sony's "AV MULTI OUT" connector,which has S-Video and component analog ports.

Two different PS3 prototypes were used in the demos; one was a slimmer box with dual HDMI outputs, while the other was a PC case with a video card in the back. Both devices were connected to identical Sony model television sets, which had HDMI ports.

All graphics demos were played on the slim boxes, while the audio demos were played on the larger PC-sized boxes. The graphics demo units were connected to the televisions via Sony's AV Multi-Out connector (black cable in photo), which is an analog connector that can split into S-Video or RCA connectors. The two HDMI ports right below the AV Multi-Out port were unused.

Of course, we were interested in why Sony did not run the units with HDMI. There may be an obvious explanation, but we received some surprising answers from Sony's staff. First, we were told that it isn't easy to get a hold of HDMI-equipped TVs. We found this to be very strange, because after all we were at the Sony booth and all the television sets had HDMI inputs. On the second try, we were told that the reason for not using HDMI was that Sony did not have any HDMI cables and that "they are difficult to find". Matt Butrovich, a former intern with Tom's Hardware and who walked the show floor with us, offered the staff to use one of the HDMI cables he actually had in his car and connect the PS3 with the TVs. Sony officials turned down the offer and we were left without seeing the demos in HD. ( :lol: )

Somehow we feel that there was another reason for not showing the PS3 with HDMI. In fact, the explanation could be as simple as the PS3's HDMI wasn't compatible with the HDMI spec integrated in the TVs. Recently it was announced that the PS3 will use HDMI 1.3, which will use an expansion of the audio channels and offer Dolby TrueHD as well as DTS-HD. Current TVs generally use HDMI 1.1, which do not support these extensions and create significant audio noise when connected to a HDMI 1.3 device.

In the end, we do not know the real reason of avoiding HDMI in the GDC demonstrations. But it certainly highlighted that Sony has still work to do - not only to finalize the AACS spec, but also to accelerate the availability to HDMI 1.3 and to educate customers that they only can run HD video and audio if they have a HDMI 1.3 capable TV.
From http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/03/24/gdc2006_ps3_no_hdmi/

Again, hopefully it gets worked out. I find it unbelievable that they would put in an HDMI that doesn't work with all the HDMI out there today....even on their own tvs.

All I'm saying is that the BR PS3 won't have the same difference from DVD as DVD did from VHS. And if it is a relatively poor BR movie player, I don't think it will help them much with beating out HD-DVD, which is bad for us all as we will have to wait a long time for the format war to end.

digitalfreaknyc 05-07-06 11:51 PM

Sorry...all i could do was read this and laugh.

dvd182 05-08-06 12:33 AM


Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
Sorry...all i could do was read this and laugh.

Nice post, especially coming from someone who consistently bitches about "Blu-ray fanboys" derailing threads :rolleyes:

mbs 05-08-06 12:40 AM


Current TVs generally use HDMI 1.1, which do not support these extensions and create significant audio noise when connected to a HDMI 1.3 device.
If the PS3 will really require a HDMI 1.3 TV (and it isn't backwards compatible with 1.1 sets) for HD gaming, Sony could be in real trouble. Requiring a TV that no one own's today would be suicide.

I take it that there are no component outs planned (so that HDMI is the only way to HD resolutions)?

kvrdave 05-08-06 12:46 AM


Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
Sorry...all i could do was read this and laugh.

You have me confused. Why?

Not, why do you have me confused...I know that. I mean, why did it make you laugh? :lol:

kvrdave 05-08-06 12:50 AM


Originally Posted by mbs
I take it that there are no component outs planned (so that HDMI is the only way to HD resolutions)?


but through Sony's "AV MULTI OUT" connector,which has S-Video and component analog ports.
It does have the component outs, so you could get HD from that. I think the problem comes form the idea of studios downgrading viewing through component to help fight piracy. So if you could only watch BR movies from the components, you won't get the picture that you would expect.

That is just what I think I understand from a poor memory on the subject, and someone with better knowledge should definately confirm or correct that. :)

Burnt Thru 05-08-06 03:59 AM

Heh, TGDaily strikes again! Is there any story they won't print? I remember one of their pieces which quoted a post on AVS as a source, so watch what you type on here, you could be unwittingly writing their next article! :D

HDMI 1.3 (or 2.0, I forget if they've renamed it yet) is backwards compatible with its earlier versions, so this should be a non issue. If you're an audio buff then you should probably be happy (though I'm dubious Sony will have time to add this new standard of connector) since HDMI 1.3 is required to pass the full range of the newer audio codecs - Dolby TrueHD, DTS HD and the rest. ITC (Image Constraint Token) has not been set on any HD DVD released so far, though it's believed both Warners and Universal will turn this feature on at some point, downrezing any signal passed through an analogue connection (such as component or scart). I think they're waiting to hook early adoptors into the new HD discs before fulfilling their CP plans in this way.

darkside 05-08-06 06:11 AM

Sony has not finalized the hardware. I don't think its fair to criticize the PS3 and its capabilities based on the early prototypes Sony is showing right now.

RockStrongo 05-08-06 08:34 AM


Originally Posted by darkside
Sony has not finalized the hardware. I don't think its fair to criticize the PS3 and its capabilities based on the early prototypes Sony is showing right now.

I think this is what should scare most people though. That they havent finalized the hardware, price or even made an announcement. Yet, they are supposed to go on sale this fall. I think Sony is sitting on some problems right now and just not telling anyone.

Grubert 05-08-06 08:51 AM

Isn't that article from March? (rhetorical question)

digitalfreaknyc 05-08-06 09:12 AM


Originally Posted by dvd182
Nice post, especially coming from someone who consistently bitches about "Blu-ray fanboys" derailing threads :rolleyes:

Uhh...check the posts here. I WAS a BR fanboy. People even asked if I worked for Sony.

It's funny because this was BR's war to lose. And thus far, there's not a damn positive thing about it.

chemosh6969 05-08-06 10:01 AM


Originally Posted by darkside
Sony has not finalized the hardware. I don't think its fair to criticize the PS3 and its capabilities based on the early prototypes Sony is showing right now.

Welcome to the real world were people do criticize prototypes of products.

raven56706 05-08-06 10:30 AM

starting to look as Blu Ray wont get on its feet this year....

Sorry but 90% of the HD owners dont own a 1080p tv....... I think Blu ray will lose the battle to the underdog.

kvrdave 05-08-06 11:07 AM


Originally Posted by Grubert
Isn't that article from March? (rhetorical question)

Just wait for my rhetorical answer! -wink-

I looked for newer stuff and didn't find it. I am skeptical of the article, but I am also a little skeptical of not being able to find much more info.

The Bus 05-08-06 11:19 AM


Originally Posted by raven56706
Sorry but 90% of the HD owners dont own a 1080p tv....... I think Blu ray will lose the battle to the underdog.

Then why the need to worry about HDMI? Just use component cables.

Sony's other partners in BR are not dumb enough to limit BR's output to only HDMI.

I see this "news" as more of a concern on how well BR is finalized, not how good BR is or isn't. As far as I'm concerned, both formats are exactly the same, technically.

darkside 05-08-06 11:35 AM

BR will work fine over component and as far as I know they are not using the ICT on any of their BR releases that have been announced so far. No advantage for HD DVD there.

raven56706 05-08-06 12:14 PM

actually not the case... HDMi problems is that you wont get the 1080p from the HDMI.... and the tvs now adays dont have 1080p....

hd-dvd is 1080i through hdmi......

Burnt Thru 05-08-06 01:00 PM

HD DVD has 1080p output in it's spec, it's just that the early Tosh and it's clones don't handle this output resolution.

The ICT issue is an interesting one: there could be quite a few irate customers if Warners switch this on for their more popular titles.

RockStrongo 05-08-06 01:14 PM


Originally Posted by Burnt Thru
HD DVD has 1080p output in it's spec, it's just that the early Tosh and it's clones don't handle this output resolution.

Yeah, this might be available in a firmware update...Toshiba included an internet port in the back to connect it to the net...obviously they are planning to do updates. They need to fix these things if possible...

1. Slow load time
2. HDMI handshake issue
3. BTB via HDMI
4. Clipping via HDMI
5. 1080p support
6. Full Dolby TruHD (if possible)

With that list fixed, this player would be excellent. As for now, the pq/aq is good, but these things are annoyances.

darkside 05-08-06 01:17 PM

I don't think HDMI 1.1 can be upgraded through firmware so number 6 is out. I'm hopefull the other issues can be worked out through the firmware though.

Fok 05-08-06 01:29 PM

guess I'll be sticking with my ps2 for a while then

Grubert 05-08-06 03:56 PM


Originally Posted by raven56706
and the tvs now adays dont have 1080p....


The Westinghouse LVM-37w1 (37") and LVM-42w2 ( 42") 1080p LCDs have 1080p inputs.

mbs 05-08-06 04:43 PM


Originally Posted by raven56706
actually not the case... HDMi problems is that you wont get the 1080p from the HDMI.... and the tvs now adays dont have 1080p....

hd-dvd is 1080i through hdmi......

You seem to be wrong on all accounts:

1. Today's HDMI (v. 1.1) can indeed do 1080p. It cannot do HD-sound, however.

2. There are indeed 1080p sets on the market.

3. All HD-DVD discs are 1080p, there just isn't a 1080p player (yet).

Qui Gon Jim 05-09-06 06:53 AM

Here's the big problem with PS3 and HDMI: It'll cost you another Benjamin for it.

raven56706 05-09-06 07:15 AM


Originally Posted by mbs
You seem to be wrong on all accounts:

1. Today's HDMI (v. 1.1) can indeed do 1080p. It cannot do HD-sound, however.

2. There are indeed 1080p sets on the market.

3. All HD-DVD discs are 1080p, there just isn't a 1080p player (yet).



1)Todays HDMI yes but on the westinghouse tvs that are out, every other tv that is bought from maybe december can do it... but how about the early HDMi people.... they cant do it..

2)yes but the majority are early hdtv buyers... just now the 1080p tvs are coming out.... tell me who is going to change their HDTV to get the PS3

3) HD_DVD players are 1080i and not 1080p...HD DVD is a true high-definition format offering video at 1080i or 720p resolution

darkside 05-09-06 07:17 AM


Originally Posted by Qui Gon Jim
Here's the big problem with PS3 and HDMI: It'll cost you another Benjamin for it.

rotfl
I guess them using a multi out was a sign. Not all PS3s will have HDMI. Hope Sony changes their mind on that one.

joshd2012 05-09-06 07:26 AM


Originally Posted by Qui Gon Jim
Here's the big problem with PS3 and HDMI: It'll cost you another Benjamin for it.

Yet still more capable than a more expensive HD-DVD player.

Burnt Thru 05-09-06 07:31 AM


Originally Posted by raven56706
3) HD_DVD players are 1080i and not 1080p...HD DVD is a true high-definition format offering video at 1080i or 720p resolution

Only the first player and its clones. The format itself supports 1080p. Or do you imagine they're encoding the data on the disc at that resolution for a laugh?

darkside 05-09-06 07:34 AM


Originally Posted by joshd2012
Yet still more capable than a more expensive HD-DVD player.

Not for movies.

raven56706 05-09-06 07:53 AM


Originally Posted by Burnt Thru
Only the first player and its clones. The format itself supports 1080p. Or do you imagine they're encoding the data on the disc at that resolution for a laugh?



i think you need to check because HD-DVD will only be shown at 1080i.

darkside 05-09-06 07:56 AM


Originally Posted by raven56706
i think you need to check because HD-DVD will only be shown at 1080i.

On current hardware. The discs are encoded 1080p/24 and future hardware will support 1080p playback.

raven56706 05-09-06 08:19 AM


Originally Posted by darkside
On current hardware. The discs are encoded 1080p/24 and future hardware will support 1080p playback.


yeah your right... my bad.. but still PS3 is too expensive for what it is promoting....

digitalfreaknyc 05-09-06 08:28 AM


Originally Posted by raven56706
yeah your right... my bad.. but still PS3 is too expensive for what it is promoting....

I don't think anyone is arguing that.

mbs 05-09-06 11:47 AM


Originally Posted by raven56706
1)Todays HDMI yes but on the westinghouse tvs that are out, every other tv that is bought from maybe december can do it... but how about the early HDMi people.... they cant do it..

2)yes but the majority are early hdtv buyers... just now the 1080p tvs are coming out.... tell me who is going to change their HDTV to get the PS3

3) HD_DVD players are 1080i and not 1080p...HD DVD is a true high-definition format offering video at 1080i or 720p resolution

1) Their TV cannot do it, no. But their HDMI connection can. HDMI and TV are not interchangable. You said today's HDMI cannot do 1080p. Even HDMI v1.1 can do 1080p (when attached to a 1080p set, of course).

2) You said no 1080p sets were available. I won't argue not many people have them, but there ARE sets available.

3) You are wrong. HD-DVD encodes their discs at 1080p and the next generation players will certainly allow for playback at 1080p. Go read up on it if you don't believe me.


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