Qui Gon Jim

Not bad, just not necessary to a game. If I want to watch a movie, there are plenty out there.


I disagree. By adding in unproven technology at this point in time, they are driving the cost of the machine way up. This could also cause some hardware issues down the line since BD is a completely unproven technology. What happens if all these launch PS3s shit the bed in three years? And don't think that won't happen and that Sony won't try to sweep the problem away because many a PS2 owner would disagree.

PS2 incorporated DVD well after the technology was launched. It was well on its way to "perfected" and it didn't have a sales-crippling effect on the price of the console.

Besides ALL that, games really don't give a screw about multiple discs. Only now are PC games more and more common on DVD. Plus, as has been pointed out again and again and again, multiple discs are a perceived value over single discs.

Sony would have been smarter waiting till PS4 to update the preferred media and left PS3 as a DVD based system.

They are gambling that PS3 will make them a fortune on BD licenses. We'll see.


But anyone that wants a PS3 HAS to pay for that extra, unneeded space. Sony is a big company. They have many (I think too many) masters to serve. This is a company who produces CD burners, writable discs and then cripples thier CDs so they can't be copied. They produce DVD burners and DVD movies yet treat all their customers suspiciously.

Why is it so hard to imagine that "Put BD in PS3" came down as a mandate to the PS group and they did a collective "WTF??" when they figured out how much this rig would cost. It will be the people in the PS group that will be "shamed" if PS3 is a failure, when it will truly be whoever made the decision to force BD down everyone's throats.

I like my ps2. I have had tons of fun playing it over the years. I have never had any of the widespread trouble with my console. I'm lucky. I don't own an X-Box. I had a PS1 on day one. I think some of the PS3 games look incredible. I think the price is absolutely a lead anchor around the neck of success for this console. Not one, NOT ONE, person I have talked to "in real life" thinks that $600 is a palatable price. When people see this on a shelf (sometime near next christmas) next to a cheaper Wii (with a game) and whatever 360 bundle there is, how the hell do they think they will sell?

Now for a long time, when people were counting HD-DVD out, I said "price price price" and some of the diehard (then) BD Supporters thought price was no issue. Well it has been, and will continue to be.

PS3 will be the cheapest BD player. That does NOT in any way guarantee its success as a gaming machine. Personally, I think it will be this year's Sega Saturn.

Jay G.

In your opinion such video and audio aren't necessary. However, some others have pointed out that others do enjoy cutscenes and the like, and that for certain genres and markets it might be more necessary than you think. BD, through its increase storage capacity, gives the developers the option of deciding whether or not such things are needed, compared to DVD where space issues make it much less of an option.

I don't get this "unproven technology" label. the PS3 itself is largely "unproven technology." Just like the PS2 before it, even if it did have a disc technology that was slightly older. Sony also released the PSP with the "unproven technology" of the UMD just recently, and I haven't heard of any huge problems with those.

It's unknown how much the price of the DVD drive added to the cost of the PS2, although at the time of its release only a handful of standalone DVD players were cheaper, and those were from cheap brands like Apex. The fact that the Xbox went DVD as well meant that there wasn't a price difference between the two systems, which meant that neither had the price advantage, but Sony probably could've shaved $100 off the price of the PS2 if it had stuck with CD-ROM.

Did you mean "games" or "gamers" don't give a screw about multiple discs?

That's because there was a huge installed base of PCs with CD-ROM drives, and only now has DVD-ROM become more prevalent. However, there has been quite a long period where PC games were released on both CD and DVD, due to the differences in individual PCs. From experience in retail, these separate releases did cause problems and confusion, even among a demographic that knows that one has to investigate the system requirements before purchasing. The PC market has to deal with an extremely diversified set of hardware, and while they've largely made this work, it's not without its numerous headaches.

For video games, the idea is to have one unified system, where every game made for that system will work on any machine of that system. If the game doesn't work, it's for different system. This is how the video game market is designed, and with few exceptions how it works out. In this market, you can't modify a video game system halfway through its lifespan so that newer games won't work on older versions of the same system. The consumers would protest loudly, even if some of them are used to the same treatment on PC. Different market, different rules.

For movies maybe. For games, having to switch discs to keep playing is perceived as a hassle. Otherwise, PS2 developers would've stuck with putting games on CDs and just produced more multiple-disc titles for the "perceived value."

That's the gamble that Sony has taken, that the PS3 will benefit from the added memory of the BD more than it will lose out due to the short-term increase in cost and price. However, it's a bet that plays out according to the way most past video-game systems have been developed, with the 360 actually the odd man out by not increasing the media memory capacity.

Helping to promote their own new media type is a factor no doubt, but it wasn't the only factor.

No, they have to pay for the drive that can process the media with additional space. Whether or not it is needed is up to debate. And again, it's the same as when consumer HAD to pay for the DVD drive in the PS2 or Xbox, instead of either system offering a lower-cost CD option. It's because if they had, then CD would've been the de facto standard for the system, with DVD just being a movie-playing option, like the one Gamecube that could play DVDs. Either they bite the bullet and make the next-gen media the standard, as Sony has, or they stick with the older media and hope the limited space doesn't come back to bite them in the ass, as MS has done with the 360.

Sony's unique in that it's the only company that has both divisions that create hardware and divisions that produce content like music and movies. However, the confusion is only when you look at Sony as one giant corp. In reality, the divisions all work somewhat autonomously from each other. Sometimes they work in harmony, sometimes they don't.

It's not hard to imagine that such a thing happened. However, that doesn't mean such a situation is likely, and available evidence points to Sony's Playstation division thinking that the BD would be an added asset to the PS3's functionality as well.

The less expensive system is $500, and now that it comes with HDMI, has everything that the more expensive 360 comes with, plus more. Plus, factor in that someone looking for a video game machine that plays HD movies as well, and the more expensive 360 and PS3 come out about even after you add the $200 for the HD-DVD drive to the $400 for the 360.

I think they will sell out. Demand for the PS2 drove the price up to several thousand in the resell market, so there are obviously a number of people where the retail price won't be an issue.

Price is a factor, but it's not the only factor. Otherwise the Gamecube would've mopped the floor with the PS2 and Xbox last generation.

Spiky

Jim,
isn't it easier just not to buy one than to keep arguing tired arguments about its hardware? I don't get the point. Are you upset because you'd like one but the price makes you balk? Are you just interested in a debate this week? Are you trying to prove a particular point about how well it will sell? Do you have some Sony stock you are worried about?

The PS3 is what it is. It has an expensive processor and drive, fact. It's over. Maybe 2 years ago you could have broken into a board meeting with these arguments and stopped it. (or just been arrested )

At this point in history, just don't buy one if the price makes it not worth your money. It's called capitalism, make it work. As you've pointed out, there are plenty of video game options. I believe the last game I had running was one of the Pacmans a couple weeks ago, on MAME. Either that or a Windows Si***** game I stole from my sister. Most entertaining, and definitely in the price range.

(ok, that's a weird censor above. S/B: Sim City)

DJ_Longfellow

Wow, someone has an answer to every question.....I see this thread is starting to drift off topic....sort of.

Qui Gon Jim

Perhaps you can just put everyone who doesn't completely agree with you on ignore. Why the hell would you come to a discussion forum if you didn't, I don't know, want to discuss things?

I didn't bash anything, I offered my opinion.

digitalfreaknyc

That's really funny. The whole time I thought Spiky was referring to Jay and not Jim...since his response is typically the same as mine when I used to read Jay's.

namja

Yeah. If you guys wanna have a X-Box add-on vs. PS3 thread (and how it pertains to watching HD movies), then feel free to start one. Otherwise, let's bring this back to center: about the Xbox add-on. Thanks.

namja
Moderator, DVD Talk Forums

Qui Gon Jim

That's fine. I suggest you warn UncleCaveman and the other Sony schills to keep to the topic at hand then, since it was his incessant need to pimp the PS3 that derailed this discussion (when I think that if you are discussing the add-on PS3 discussion is a natural part of that discourse).

MOD NOTE:Comments like that are welcome in an e-mail to a moderator but not as a post, especially if you insist on calling people "Sony schills" which you should know by now are a definite no-no. -namja

Fincher Fan

Sorry if this has been answered but I'm skimming over a lot of these posts. How will the audio be passed from the HD drive?

Spiky

Good question, I don't think we know for sure. Assumption has to be...USB into the 360, SPDIF digital output from there. Presumably something will be turning the new codecs into DTS for output.

Supermallet

It's all optical, baby.

DJ_Longfellow

Yep, all we get is Dolby Digital through optical for the Add-On. I guess it can decode all the formats, but converts to the same sound...or soemthing to that matter. A little disappointing, but good enough for me.

Fincher Fan

As long as the audio bitrate doesn't suffer much, I'll be able to live with it for at least the interim.

Qui Gon Jim

Would it be possible to use a SVGA-to-component cable to connect the 360 to a component only HDTV and still upconvert S-DVDs?

RockStrongo

Im no expert, but since component is analog, then I would think not.

Also, would anyone see a problem using a VGA to DVI-I converter??

Spiky

Yes, that is possible. VGA is analog, too, Rock. VGA-component transcoders are very common, and that happens after all the HDCP crap is over.

I don't know much about VGA-DVI, if there are many such devices on the market. But the same rule should apply and it should work fine.

Qui Gon Jim

Now here's the question:
Track down an A1 (not ready to buy for a few more weeks) and take advantage of the advanced audio or get a 360, the add-on and this cable to get HD DVD and upconverting DVD over component.

Decisions decisions....

Spiky

Unless you want the 360 for gaming, get the real player. When I realized that Perfect Dark Zero is no more than just another FPS (unlike its N64 predecessors), I lost interest in the 360 for gaming.

Now, just the 360 add-on to plug into your current computer might be an interesting choice. But that depends on if you are setup with an HTPC and if someone gets the thing working with a standard PC in the first place. We all assume this will happen, but til it does....

RockStrongo

I wasnt sure about that...I assumed that it wasnt just due to the limitation of the 360....I wonder why it cannot upscale via component but can via VGA?? Copy protection or something?

Spiky

Stupid CE companies and MPAA not even understanding their own technology. At least that's my take, but I'm cynical and mean.

Jay G.

The thinking probably went:

HDCP is on HDMI
HDMI = DVI
DVI = VGA

Somewhere along the way they forgot that there were two types of DVI, analog and digital.

DJ_Longfellow

So, if you I got a VGA cable for my 360 and a component convertor, would I lose any quality for standard DVD (trying to upconvert)? My TV only is 1080i. I'm not too concerned, but just curious since I plan on getting the HD-DVD attachment.

Spiky

If you got a good transcoder, it should look very good. Warning, these can be $300 or more. If you search for them, use 'transcoder', not 'converter'.

warcp

Couldn't find an answer:
Does the HD-DVD addon require its own connection to the TV? In other words, will the 360 require 1 input and the HD-DVD another? Or will one pass thru the other?

Fandango

No, it only has a mini usb to connect to the 360, it cannot connect to a TV on its own.