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External add-on HD-DVD player for the Xbox 360 for <$200

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External add-on HD-DVD player for the Xbox 360 for <$200

Old 10-12-06, 04:37 PM
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Actually, I'm pretty sure the Neo Geo was more expensive after you adjust for inflation.
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Old 10-12-06, 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Spiky
To be fair, people are leveling criticisms partly because it is the most expensive mainstream (meaning: expected to be at the top of the market) console to date. Even adjusted for inflation it's the most expensive.
I don't know about which is the most expensive, with or without inflation, but I'm pretty sure Panasonic and EA thought the 3D0 was going to be the second coming of Christ. That came out for around $700 with a demo disc and one controller. I bought it when it dropped, didn't take long, to around $400.

The demo disc contained part of an episode of Batman: The Animated Series and Two Stupid Dogs ....
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Old 10-12-06, 04:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Suprmallet
Actually, I'm pretty sure the Neo Geo was more expensive after you adjust for inflation.
I'd argue that the Neo Geo was not nor was it intended to be a mainstream console.
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Old 10-12-06, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I'd argue that the Neo Geo was not nor was it intended to be a mainstream console.
Exactly. And no consumer thought the 3DO was going to be a big hit. The Atari 5200 might break my little theory, but that was a long time ago when games were still new.
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Old 10-12-06, 05:08 PM
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If Spiky was only talking about intended for mainstream systems, then we can exclude the Neo Geo.
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Old 10-12-06, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Spiky
Exactly. And no consumer thought the 3DO was going to be a big hit. The Atari 5200 might break my little theory, but that was a long time ago when games were still new.
I thought it would. Thats why I bought it. It still was one of my favorite machines BTW.
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Old 10-12-06, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Spiky
To be fair, people are leveling criticisms partly because it is the most expensive mainstream (meaning: expected to be at the top of the market) console to date. Even adjusted for inflation it's the most expensive.
True and whats debatable is that the extra amount of storage BD has to offer has not been proven to be a huge benefit verus the extra cost associated.

Im willing to bet that for at least a few years, most games will fit on a double layer dvd.

Upgradable hard drives and downloadable content might be the future. Larger discs might not.

Basically, for gamers, is this jump in technology worth it to pay for the most expensive gaming system?? I think that remains to be seen. The 360 is a worthy competitor and its based on DVD technology.
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Old 10-12-06, 07:56 PM
  #258  
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Originally Posted by Spiky
Have any of you ever been to a business class? Sony is trying to make money, not take on several million individual consumers and try to annoy them. They believe that BD is a big part of their future money-making capability. That is why it is in the PS3, and why they fought so determinedly against Toshiba/HDDVD.
Actually, that was exactly my point. I know it's about business.
They're using the PS3 to get Blu-Ray into homes. When I say "shove down their throats" I'm referring to giving the consumers who want to purchase a PS3 no choice in which player is in the console. The 360 and PC proves that anything larger than a DVD-9 isn't needed to play HD games for now and for quite a few years.
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Old 10-12-06, 09:23 PM
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Quite a few years? Sony says that Ps3 is "future-proofed" with Ps3. I have a 360, and i love it, but i think the ports, and capabilites that are included in the Ps3, will make it win the console war, along with game content. People are complaining about the price, but wait till 2010 (atleast) when Sony makes the console "slim" and drops the price, while the 360 remains the same.
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Old 10-12-06, 09:26 PM
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Originally Posted by DthRdrX
Probably because Sony didn't have the same financial involvement in DVD's success like they do Blu-Ray. Remember, DVD was picked over Sony's format(MMCD) a few years earlier.
Actually, a number of MMCD features, and thus patents, were folded into the DVD standard before the spec was set. Thus Sony gets a share of DVD licensing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvd#History
http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#6.1
http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/about/about.html

It's not on the same level as BD is, but Sony was involved in DVD and actively for its success. Hell, they incorporated it into their next-gen video game system, the PS2.

360 games [fit on a DVD]. Won't most of the games be direct ports available on both consoles?
There's no such thing as a "direct port" unless it's a really old video game that can be emulated on a newer system. The video game systems have completely different architectures in them that require significant development time. A lot of releases get developed and released on multiple platforms concurrently, but one version isn't just a port of the other. Also, there are a number of titles that may only get a single platform release. Sometimes it's because the studio that made it is part of the company that makes a particular video game system, particularly Nintendo and their properties like Mario and Zelda. Sometimes it's just because the studio doesn't want, or can't afford to, release it on multiple platforms.

So, with that said, there may be some PS3-exclusive titles that take full advantage of BD, as well as a multi-platform title that takes use of the extra space on the PS3 version.
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Old 10-12-06, 09:38 PM
  #261  
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Originally Posted by DthRdrX
Worse comes to worse I figure they'll just use multiple discs if needed for games. PC players have been used to it for years.
Video games have had to use mutiple discs in the past as well. PSOne had a few multiple-disc titles, and the Gamecube managed a few of them due to the system's comparitively small disc capacity. Its definitely not preferred by gamers though.

With Sony we have a company who knows certain CD patents are ready to expire and are desperate to find something to take their place, hence the corporate push towards Blu-Ray.
Patents only last for 20 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_patent

CD came out in 1982.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc

Based on that, I'd say the patents for the CD ran out at least by 2002.
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Old 10-12-06, 09:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
Patents only last for 20 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Term_of_patent

CD came out in 1982.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compact_Disc

Based on that, I'd say the patents for the CD ran out at least by 2002.
There ya go. Thats exactly why they are pushing a new format. Sony has well over 100 patents in MPEG-2 and want something to take CD's huge place in the industry.
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Old 10-12-06, 10:01 PM
  #263  
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
Actually, a number of MMCD features, and thus patents, were folded into the DVD standard before the spec was set. Thus Sony gets a share of DVD licensing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dvd#History
http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#6.1
http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/about/about.html

It's not on the same level as BD is, but Sony was involved in DVD and actively for its success. Hell, they incorporated it into their next-gen video game system, the PS2.


There's no such thing as a "direct port" unless it's a really old video game that can be emulated on a newer system. The video game systems have completely different architectures in them that require significant development time. A lot of releases get developed and released on multiple platforms concurrently, but one version isn't just a port of the other. Also, there are a number of titles that may only get a single platform release. Sometimes it's because the studio that made it is part of the company that makes a particular video game system, particularly Nintendo and their properties like Mario and Zelda. Sometimes it's just because the studio doesn't want, or can't afford to, release it on multiple platforms.

So, with that said, there may be some PS3-exclusive titles that take full advantage of BD, as well as a multi-platform title that takes use of the extra space on the PS3 version.
Yep, Sony played nice back then to get their names on the dvd patent pool, added dvd to PS2. They still made more on the CD patents though. Completely different from Blu-Ray.

As for direct ports of games, you know exactly what I mean. If a game comes in at one size on the 360 it is not going to be much different on the PS3 unless the developer puts the extra work in. Most won't. Maybe 2% of the total games will take advantage of the PS3's full features.
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Old 10-12-06, 10:06 PM
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Originally Posted by UncleCaveman
Quite a few years? Sony says that Ps3 is "future-proofed" with Ps3. I have a 360, and i love it, but i think the ports, and capabilites that are included in the Ps3, will make it win the console war, along with game content. People are complaining about the price, but wait till 2010 (atleast) when Sony makes the console "slim" and drops the price, while the 360 remains the same.
In 2010 I bet Sony is hyping their PS4. Telling a customer their purchase will be future-proofed is akin to saying don't feel bad about spending 500-600 dollars on our product.
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Old 10-12-06, 10:07 PM
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360 HD Drive article
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Old 10-12-06, 10:09 PM
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That's a pic that was taken last night.
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Old 10-12-06, 10:11 PM
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Originally Posted by DthRdrX
There ya go. Thats exactly why they are pushing a new format. Sony has well over 100 patents in MPEG-2 and want something to take CD's huge place in the industry.
Yes, it was called SACD. Came out right around then.
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Old 10-12-06, 10:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Spiky
Yes, it was called SACD. Came out right around then.
One more example of Sony trying to replace their CD patents. Thanks.

SACD failed however. Blu-Ray can cover many markets for Sony. (gaming/high end music/movie market)

BTW, I dug up an article that talks about this issue.

Game over for Sony?

Last edited by DthRdrX; 10-12-06 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 10-12-06, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by DthRdrX
There ya go. Thats exactly why they are pushing a new format.
Of course the interest in royalties from the format it going to be part of the consideration in including it. However, BD also provides more storage space on the media, which every next-gen system aside from the 360 has had for the past decade and longer.

Originally Posted by DthRdrX
Yep, Sony played nice back then to get their names on the dvd patent pool, added dvd to PS2. They still made more on the CD patents though. Completely different from Blu-Ray.
I don't see how the PS3 utilizing the next-gen media format BD is "completely different" from the PS2 utilizing the then next-gen media format DVD. Obviously it would've been cheaper for Sony to have stuck to the CD format for PS2, especially as you have helpfully pointed out they made much more money off of CD patents. So Sony went with DVD despite making less from licensing from it and it costing more, because they felt the extra memory of a DVD was worth it. This time around, they feel that BD for games is worth it, and are investing appropriately in it. And it's their commitment for BD games that is making BD a requirement on the PS3 systems, unlike the 360 which doesn't have to worry about ever supporting HD DVD games.

Originally Posted by DthRdrX
As for direct ports of games, you know exactly what I mean. If a game comes in at one size on the 360 it is not going to be much different on the PS3 unless the developer puts the extra work in. Most won't. Maybe 2% of the total games will take advantage of the PS3's full features.
Even with the same levels and characters and such, that doesn't mean the storage requirments will be the same. The extra space provided by BD could mean less compressed or downgraded graphics, or simply less development time trying to cram too much onto a smaller capacity disc.

Originally Posted by DthRdrX
SACD failed however. Blu-Ray can cover many markets for Sony. (gaming/high end music/movie market)
Does BD even have an audio-only spec? I don't think it does.
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Old 10-12-06, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
Of course the interest in royalties from the format it going to be part of the consideration in including it. However, BD also provides more storage space on the media, which every next-gen system aside from the 360 has had for the past decade and longer.


I don't see how the PS3 utilizing the next-gen media format BD is "completely different" from the PS2 utilizing the then next-gen media format DVD. Obviously it would've been cheaper for Sony to have stuck to the CD format for PS2, especially as you have helpfully pointed out they made much more money off of CD patents. So Sony went with DVD despite making less from licensing from it and it costing more, because they felt the extra memory of a DVD was worth it. This time around, they feel that BD for games is worth it, and are investing appropriately in it. And it's their commitment for BD games that is making BD a requirement on the PS3 systems, unlike the 360 which doesn't have to worry about ever supporting HD DVD games.


Even with the same levels and characters and such, that doesn't mean the storage requirments will be the same. The extra space provided by BD could mean less compressed or downgraded graphics, or simply less development time trying to cram too much onto a smaller capacity disc.


Does BD even have an audio-only spec? I don't think it does.
I would assume some companies plan on using Blu-Ray for audio, or else I don't see why some recording companies paid to be supporting members. I'm not sure about audio only ala cd, but they can do audio/video. I'm all for an HQ music discs that we can get.
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Old 10-13-06, 12:16 AM
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Originally Posted by DthRdrX
I would assume some companies plan on using Blu-Ray for audio, or else I don't see why some recording companies paid to be supporting members.
The record companies release music videos and concert videos from bands.
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Old 10-13-06, 12:47 AM
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BD has one thing over SACD. It can offer video at the same time as high-rez audio like TrueHD. Hopefully the audio studios will use one of these 2 new formats for audio.

Interestingly, one audiophile studio finally decided to switch from CD to SACD Hybrid completely. They did this about a month ago. Chesky. Now I may finally buy something from them. It isn't completely dead, yet.
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Old 10-13-06, 12:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
Does BD even have an audio-only spec? I don't think it does.
Don't think so, either. Which, despite what I said one post up, may be a problem for an idiot studio like Sony/BMG. They have so much classical music, it would be awesome if they would step up.
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Old 10-13-06, 01:09 AM
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Originally Posted by DthRdrX
In 2010 I bet Sony is hyping their PS4. Telling a customer their purchase will be future-proofed is akin to saying don't feel bad about spending 500-600 dollars on our product.
Absolutely true. There is no future proof technology item available today for 4-5 years down the road. Most of the stuff we have now will work fine then, but the next big thing will go in a direction they aren't thinking of yet.
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Old 10-13-06, 01:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Spiky
BD has one thing over SACD. It can offer video at the same time as high-rez audio like TrueHD. Hopefully the audio studios will use one of these 2 new formats for audio.

Interestingly, one audiophile studio finally decided to switch from CD to SACD Hybrid completely. They did this about a month ago. Chesky. Now I may finally buy something from them. It isn't completely dead, yet.
Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab has released some excellent hybrid SACDs in several different genres, from jazz (Miles Davis and John Coltrane most especially) to classical to rock.
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