Those are all very good and interesting points, Spiky...

The big question is how much can/will Sony be able to lose in order to get the "Trojan Horse" out there.

The Sony stockholders don't really care if Sony is paying a sister company to produce product. The bottom line is Sony is losing money and that can't go on for too long because it affects the health/stock price of the company. I believe I read an estimate that Sony would lose 2 billion dollars by selling PS3 at $200 below their costs. That's a big risk and if BR doesn't become the next big media format I don't know where that leaves them... if they lose to HD-DVD they've lost a lot of cash for nothing.

I guess the theory is if the PS3 didn't have the BR drive up front then they could minimize the losses (especially if most people buying a PS3 didn't care about HD at the moment). Then, those who wanted HD content could add on a BR player. But Sony may be too far down the road to reverse course now. It would definitely be a huge blow to Sony to remove BD from the PS3 at this point. It would be tantamout to admitting defeat.

That would assume they sell 10 mil units at that loss. Very possible. But how many games do they sell with those 10 mil units with $10 profit each? And at some point they start making money on the machines, too.

That's the gamble/strategy.

Big gamble in their financial situation. A $2 Billion loss without coming out the victor could cripple the company.

What's their financial situation?

My guess is that a 2 billion dollar loss would hurt, but Sony would keep being Sony. I know that not too long ago, most every division lost money except the video game arm, though.

It's a non-argument. If Bethesda can easily fit Oblivion on a DVD, then there are no legitimate storage problems, except maybe for those who like to utilize numerous CG cutscenes that take forever. Those are pointless anyway in this day and age. Even then I can't see it being a problem. I don't see any game being made for either console that will be bigger than Oblivion, which is absolutely massive.

Since the 360 already offers 720p gaming, which will be the case with the vast majority of PS3 games too, Sony's console offers no real advantage where gaming is concerned.

This explains all the extended DVD rereleases Sony is putting out.

I believe the movie division is still pretty strong. Sony's problem the last decade has been their huge losses in the home audio/video realm. The constant push to dominate with proprietery media has failed so far and companies like Samsung have taken away huge chucks of their TV and electronics business not to mention Apple pretty much killing the Walkman legacy. The Vaio hasn't really been a strong brand either. Blu Ray winning (and all the royalties that go with it) is part of Sony's long term plan to get back on top so they will do everything in their power to defeat Toshiba.

Sony has been pretty smart this time around with Blu Ray though and I think they will avoid all their previous mistakes with Beta, minidisc, memory stick, etc.

Pricing their players at twice the competition doesn't strike me as a smart move.

I always thought minidisc did quite well. It filled the transition period between portable CD players and MP3 hard drive players. I had two and I remember quite a few other people who had them at the time too. CD players were too big so it was the ideal choice before MP3 players came out with a larger capacity and at a reasonable price.

I don't think Blu-ray will make the PS3. I think many people will go out and buy it simply because of the name (given that the first two machines were so popular). £399 is exactly the start price I was expecting (we tend to get ripped off here in the UK). I'll be getting one for the Final Fantasy games (exactly the reason I bought a PS2 combined with the fact that my DVD had broken and a new standalone player was still about the same as a PS2 if not more at the time).

With UMD, it seems like they're still making the same mistakes.

Sure, but Blu Ray is completely different. UMD is another format very limited in where it can be used and even more restricted than most by only working on a single piece of hardware.

Blu Ray is going to be supported by a majority of hardware companies and every single studio but Universal. That is a big switch from how Sony usually does their technology. Starting with mostly themselves and hoping others will want to come aboard. This is how Panasonic beat them with Secure digital since most companies did not want to come aboard with memory stick and Panasonic got everyone on board with them early.

This time around they are reversing things. They are getting everyone on board before they launch the product and not just hoping the format takes off and then atracts supporters.

I agree the $1000 players are an issue, but that is really the norm for a new technology. How Toshiba is pulling off $500 players I don't know, but I would bet someone in the HD DVD group is eating a loss on them to try and gain an early advantage.

They had everyone's support when they were going to have 3 million PS3s in homes in the Spring. That gave them a huge edge. If HD-DVD comes out 6 months before the PS3, and it is getting sales, I would expect most every company that is not owned by Sony to go where the money is. The idea of 3 million units in homes is what brought the support, and right now that is floundering a little.

Sony has been pretty smart this time around with Blu Ray though and I think they will avoid all their previous mistakes with Beta, minidisc, memory stick, etc.

I think Toshiba has been pretty good with thier reputation.They made good products.
Even helping Apple with thier HDD for Ipod to take out Walkman.
For them batling Toshiba is really a tough choice.Anyway NEC is also behind Toshiba so that another hi tech company so toshiba got itself covered in the consumer and the IT section also.

BZZZT.

This is a new revisionist history kind of thing I read a lot. DVD players could be had for a LOT less than $300 at the time of Ps2's launch. It was a nice extra at the time, since many of us wanted the system for games, and it played back DVDs. Maybe quality DVD players were still in the neighborhood of $300, but the PS2 is hardly a quality player.

My first DVD player was an LG (I forget the exact model) and it cost £180. That was a bottom of the line player at the time and it could only play DVDs and CDs. It broke about a year later just outside of the warrently period. PS2 came out in the UK at £299.99 and had dropped to £199.99 at the time I was looking for a new player. I had my eyes on a PS2 anyway (for the Final Fantasy games) so rather than going for another bottom of the line DVD player AND a PS2, I just bought the PS2 which (considering it's made for playing games for prolonged periods of time) has never broken down on me and filled the period while I was waiting for decent quality DVD player to come down in price over here.

It doesn't mean the same thing is going to happen again with Blu-ray. I still think people will buy a PS3 because of the name and the games.

Its funny how on one forum, you will read a statement like this, then on another forum it will be the complete opposite. I don't think there is an industry leader anymore, but just a whole lot of choices.

Of course, if you ask J6P, he will say Sony is the best. Don't believe me, check out this recent study which puts Sony 3rd in brand trust, and Toshiba 18th. Don't believe it represents J6P? They put Bose first. No self respecting person who reads up on audio/video stuff would ever buy Bose or trust a single word they say. Only J6P would.

Sony probably believes they can ride this brand trust all the way to the bank with the higher price of their player. Toshiba may be cutting their price to combat a bad public image. Or maybe that survey is crap. Only time will tell.

I think your reliance on that study is not very logical. They surveyed households around the nation. At last check, Nintendo doesn't make products outside of video games. Sony makes TVs and DVD Players while Microsoft makes computer stuff. I'd be willing to bet there were alot of homes that don't even know what a Playstation 2 is, but still gave Sony high marks based on their knowledge of other products.

BTW, you make fun of Bose and J6P, but if you read any of the Home Theater Forums around, you'd also see that most people into audio/video say the exact same thing about Sony junk. :lol:

I read AVS Forum. You come accross the occasional Sony hater, but not often.

Don't know which threads you're reading, Josh. Sony's audio stuff is much maligned on the web. Their TVs are very good, just mostly overpriced. Frankly, neither of these companies (Sony, Tosh) has an iota of trust from me.

At this point, for BD/HD-DVD, I'm still waiting on Denon. Sony, Tosh, Samsung....c'mon, give me a real company with a release announcement. Pioneer maybe, but their track record on DVD is very mediocre.

To Deus:
Minidisc did excellent in Japan and decent in Europe. It failed repeatedly in the USA. Apparently we're all idiots. Cassette and CDR both beat it out. And now MP3 has made sure it is never coming back. So, with most people on this forum being in the US, you'll find a different outlook than at home.

Another nail in the coffin of Blu-Ray...

I actually believe that is Sony's thinking. They seem to think that they can do no wrong, but have on several occasions. I can most definately see the PS3 and BR being a huge success for Sony. But I can also see the opposite.

And I don't really think Toshiba has a bad public image, they simply don't have the general name recognition of Sony. Actually, the first DVD player I bought was a Toshiba, and it still works better than any others I have bought. Okay, that has nothing to do with this, but it got me thinking....and my 32" tv is a Toshiba as well. :lol: Wish it had more than 1 S-video input, but it is pretty old.

You don't like Sony? Buy Panasonic. Buy Philips. Buy Pioneer. Buy Samsung.

You don't like Toshiba? Tough.

You want a HD-DVD player? Buy a Toshiba.

You want a BR player? Tough.

*Looks at calendar*

You want an HD-DVD player? Tough.

You want a BR player? Tough.

This is getting just a tad-bit rediculous. There is only one choice for HD-DVD and many for Blu-Ray. Both of which you can't buy today. Toshiba isn't impressing me when they claim their new laptop may have "slow down" issues playing back HD-DVD, so I'm eager to see how these players are reviewed. Blu-Ray has nothing right now, so we can't judge it yet.

You completely missed my point, namely that even if you have vowed not to buy any Sony products, you have a choice. Whereas, if you want a brand other than Toshiba, you simply cannot buy an HD DVD player.

That is exactly my point. Sony used to have a reputation for quality about 10 years ago. Now, they think they can overcharge people just based on brand name recognition. There are many manufacturers that sell quality products at cheaper prices than Sony. That coupled with the fact that most of the HT community is down on Sony shows that name brand only means something when you are ignorant of the facts.

Second to only Sharp in LCD? Check.
Leader in Digital Camera market? Check.

Damn, Sony is slipping ;)

I thought the new Sony Qualia tv's were getting good reviews, and I know the new Sony Projector got great reviews in Home Theater magazine.

I understand that, but my point was that will all change in the future. Do you think Toshiba will be the only HD-DVD player ever made?

Don't move the goalposts, if you don't mind. We're talking about a person deciding on a purchase now, or during this year at most.

How many HD DVD player models have been announced for 2006? From how many brands?

Hence my comment about their TVs being high quality (and price). Actually, the Ruby (the new PJ) is one product that represents the best price on the market. Course, the market is like 3 items, one of the others also being a Sony.

While I wouldn't dispute that, it is because I don't know any better. Do you have links for that? When I was looking at digital cameras, I never even thought about Sony.

I'd highly doubt Sony is a leader in the US digital camera market. Anytime you make people buy your own inferior proprietary format for something, it doesn't bode well.

As for the LCD market, I'd also like to see numbers on that. With the influx of cheap Korean products it's hard to believe there's a market leader at all.

For cameras, Sony makes most of the sensors used by all manufacturers. But Canon has traditionally shipped more digital cameras than anyone else, with Sony and Kodak following. So not sure what Josh is getting at. Unless it changed in the last half year, I haven't seen recent figures.

Actually, Kodak may have overtaken both of them. My memory is fuzzy and I'm having a hard time finding concrete data on the web. Also not sure if news reports mean USA or Worldwide.

Canon is the leader in market share, while Kodak shipped the most cameras. As Spiky states, it's hard to tell if this is nationwide or worldwide.

I chopped bits and pieces from this article: http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...ras-usat_x.htm

With 2005 earnings of more than $3 billion, "Canon comes into the show on a roll," says Dave Etchells, who runs Imaging-Resource.com, a camera enthusiast website.

It has the No. 1 market share in digital camera sales, according to researchers NPD Group, InfoTrends and Current Analysis. On the best-seller charts, Canon models comprise seven of the top 10 at online retailer Amazon, six out of 10 at Imaging-Resource.com and four of the top five at Shopping.com.

Kodak, meanwhile, lost $1.4 billion in 2005 and is going through a multiyear restructuring as it transitions to sales of digital cameras and equipment and away from a reliance on film, its former cash cow.

Kodak's entry-level digital cameras are wildly popular with consumers, especially at mass-market stores such as Wal-Mart. IDC says Kodak shipped more cameras to dealers last year than any other manufacturer — 7 million, compared with 5 million by Canon. Sony was third with 4.7 million.


Canon had three of the top five best-selling cameras in 2005.
1. Canon PowerShot A520
2. Canon PowerShot Digital Elph SD400
3. Nikon Coolpix 4600
4. Canon PowerShot A510
5. Sony DSC P200
Source: The NPD Group

I was looking at a chart from a few years ago (damn dates). Sorry.

But with regards to LCD, I was referring to quality. In sales they are actually at the top of the list.

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,124836,00.asp

I still would say Sharp is a better LCD TV.

Then I guess this was correct after all:

I hope Sony wins this thing or some people are going to have aneurisms.

How about the RCA HD-DVD player that walmart is selling here. Ships 5/18/06. Also $498.

For some reason the direct link isn't working.

The URL is www.walmart.com /catalog /product.do?product_id=4790609.

Or you can search for HD-DVD in the search box

RCA's player is a rebadged Toshiba, from everything I've read.