B5Erik

So here's where the intolerant views of those supporting James Gunn as vehemently (and antagonistically) as they have have gotten this board...

And it's not just that thread, not by a longshot. Apparently, anyone who supports keeping James Bond the way he was originally written by Ian Fleming, and the way he has been portrayed for 56 years on the big screen, is a racist. Insulting the character of those who don't want Bond to change is standard operating procedure for a half dozen or more people here. And there is a lot of mean spirited, belittling, condescending stuff posted by the people who clearly lean left in the Sexual Harassment in Hollywood thread. Those are just a few of the problem threads from the last month.

PM's reposted anonymously with any names removed. There IS a major problem here, and I'm glad I'm not the only one who sees it.


Houston, we have a problem.

Does anyone here care to fix it?

Or is DVDTalk going to end up either like a ghost town or a small community of people parroting the exact same opinions? Because if the problem isn't fixed it's going to end up as one of those two possible results.


I'm posting this here as a wake up call to those who care about DVDTalk, and I'm really, REALLY hoping that someone with some authority or influence takes it to heart. Almost all of the great posters who made this forum what it was are gone. They saw the writing on the wall years ago. (I went through some old threads when I re-watched Buffy and Angel, and saw some incredible discussions with amazing board members - members who are no longer here.)

Do you really want to see this place go down in flames? Because on this four engine plane two engines are out and a third is on fire.

fumanstan

I'll recap some of what I responded with in the Guardians thread:

1) I agree that some of the jabs and accusations are out of hand. As I said in that thread, I think some of the insults at you that were politically motivated were out of hand and uncalled for. You seem to have ignored me pointing that out to you previously, so again... I am defending you in that regard. I also stay out of the Politics forum because I dislike the back and forth there.

2) I think its extremely rude to share private messages publicly without consent, as I also said. That said, I hope people who share your opinion openly share their opinions themselves. As someone that has a shit ton of posts here and also many years as a member, I care enough to post about these things.

3) Perspective is a funny thing. I know the moderators have stated before they've gotten equal complaints from "the other side" regarding action not being taken and letting certain members tip toe the line as to what is acceptable. When it comes to politics, people always seem to feel like they're the ones being targeted. I'm not taking a side on this, just playing neutral and making an observation.

4) This probably doesn't help if you feel the moderators are biased, but use the report to mod feature. Explain your case. I don't think I noticed any moderators being guilty in the Guardians thread for attacking you, but simply voiced their own opinion on Gunn and Disney. That doesn't mean they're biased, just that their personal opinion may also not agree with yours. That's ok. If I'm wrong, examples would help.

B5Erik

So a handful of people take the time to send me PM's laying out how bad things have gotten because there are another handful of people aggressively trying to beat down any opinions that they don't share, and the reaction is...

Meh. Problem? What problem?

Don't you think that for every one of those PM's I got that there are at least a couple other board members who feel the same way but don't think of sending a PM or have so given up that they don't bother?

Those comments are real. There is a real feeling among several board members that it's pointless to post when you know a handful of people are going to jump on you and tag you as an Alt-Right racist, misogynist, homophobe, etc. It's more trouble than it's worth for some people.

Is that really not a problem?

fumanstan

So despite starting off my response with "I agree that some of the jabs and accusations are out of hand." you feel like my reply amounts to me believing there's not a problem? I feel like you don't actually care about the content of my post because I haven't fully agreed with your belief that there's a forum wide epidemic happening.

As I mentioned in #3, I'm fairly neutral as I have no doubt that there are more posters put off by the before mentioned behavior, I just happen to think and know that there are also liberal or left leaning posters that feel just as strongly that others get away with equally insulting or offensive content. Both are annoying to me, which is why I support you when it comes to posters insinuating that your responses about Gunn were politically motivated, and feel like any of those responses should be reported to moderators. If it were me, any of that kind of content and response would get warnings immediately and leave the politics of individual posters to that forum.

B5Erik

Do you not get that personal attacks on one's character are the worst kind of attacks and insults possible?

Accusing someone of being a racist (Bond thread, among others), sexist/misogynist (Ghostbusters reboot thread), and a flat out liar (Guardians thread) is really going nuclear. Those kind of accusations stick, warranted or not. And there have been NO repercussions.

Now, maybe I did gloss over some of your points as you mentioned - in large part because your overall tone is, "Meh, no BIG problem." Yes, you're acknowledging that there is a problem and some people are out of line, but then dismissing it as no big deal.

fumanstan

Sounds like there's little reason in continuing this discussion with you then if you're dismissive of my response because I disagree with your opinion on the severity of the problems.

B5Erik

You misunderstood. I was explaining why my response looked that way, not necessarily accusing you of doing anything wrong.

You are correct in that I did shortchange you for part of your response, and that's on me.

But my point still stands - attacking someone's character and integrity is the worst thing you can do to someone online (short of anything illegal). And that's what we've seen here.

B5Erik

In direct response to a pair of my posts...
That's just one example. I don't have time to dig up all the others that I've seen (not just towards me), but there have been several recently.

Sonic

I was the one that said that. I was the one that made that general comment and statement to those who strongly oppose a black James Bond are racist. Yup. I stand behind my comment 100%.

I'm not the only one that feels that way...many out there as well:

Jay G.

As an aside, i doubted the legitimacy of the quoted PMs in the OP over in the Guardians of the Galaxy 3 thread, but a mod has asserted they're legit, with one of them being from them. We're trying to get that thread back on track, so I'm going to state here that I was wrong about that, and I'm sorry.

Trevor

I think all those PMs prove is that people incapable of real conversation aren’t posting anymore. Good riddance.

PerryD

I will state first that I support Gunn and believe that Disney should have allowed him to publicly apologize and keep his job. However the tweets themselves out of context are quite damning and don't appear to be jokes in the way jokes are normally set up, so I wouldn't be able to compare them to Family Guy or normal stand-up comedy. Plus I feel that supporters have been misleading and disingenuous, like 10 years instead of 6 years, Disney knew about the tweets when there is no indication they did, and that Gunn had previously apologized about the pedophile tweets when there is no record of that either.

The problem I have with threads like the Gunn thread is that the most offensive posts (those labeling someone as racist or a troll) could be quickly dealt with, the poster warned and the post deleted. But instead the mods pile on. Reporting the posts has no effect. Here is one example:

at this point, dex14 with his moderator hat should have told GhostLee that the alt-right comment was unacceptable, and ask to bring the discussion level down a notch or two, instead, he stokes the flames with these responses to the above posts:

DVD Polizei

Define a real conversation. While you're at it, define what a discussion is as well.

Jay G.

Anyway, I stay away from the Political forums specifically because of the politicalization there and the divisiveness. I didn't come to DVDTalk for that. That said, I'm glad it exists, because it provides a place for people who want those discussions to go, and for mods to shunt such discussions to when they crop up in other forums.

Also, I tried to stay away from the new Ghostbusters threads due to the political talk that was in them. I ended up posting a review in the Ghostbusters review thread well after its release, after it was on video. I believe I rated it as fairly mediocre. I didn't get called sexist.

While it'd be nice if all other discussions could stay politics free, when movies involve things such as race, gender, sexuality, etc. issues, either in their content or in certain behind-the-scenes things such as casting, discussion of that is going to naturally arise while discussing those films. It's not easy to keep it segregated, even though the mods try (the GotG 3 thread has had a separate "political" thread for a while now). Also, I have seen bad actors from all sides of the political spectrum. It's not just "liberals ganging up on conservatives," although I'm sure the conservatives that feel they've been attacked most vividly remember those moments.

It's a difficult situation, and there's not an easy answer to eliminate this problem. GotG 3 recently got political because some people outside of DVDTalk made it political. The discussion started to reflect that. Discussion of race is going to bring up racism, discussion of gender is going to bring up sexism, etc. Active moderation can help, but it can sometime be a tough call when something goes "too far" and either needs to be moved elsewhere, or discipline is needed. Also, if there's an argument involving more than 2 people with 2 main sides, and one side outnumbers the other, that's not inherently a problem, even if the side in the minority may not like it. I've been the lone dissenter a few times.

DVD Polizei

But there is an easy answer. Tell the people who accuse others of racism (or ANY other politically-charged and motivated agenda), to put that stupid shit in the politics forum. Period. Because that's the only place it belongs, separated from the rest of reality, as it contaminates the other forums.

But hey, maybe DVD Talk owners have this right and I'm completely off my rocker.

Maybe they want to spread all this love and tolerance outside the politics forum, demonstrating how widely accepting everyone is in there, and finally proving that DVD Talk will be the one true beacon of sanity and compassion that the internet needs.

GoldenJCJ

I’ll put in my 2¢. I think this is spreading forum wide. Politically I lean left but I’ve also got a lot of right leaning views. I don’t fit into any particular mold that this forum has created for its users. It seems that in many of these threads you have to be on one side or the other, and if your views skew a little then people pounce on you for being “inconsistent” or call your opinion “unreliable”. And I think that’s a problem right now with this country in general, this forum is just a microcosm of that larger problem. There can be no views that agree a little with column A and a little with column B, it has to be all or nothing as far as views are concerned.

In the Gunn thread I gave my (IMO, neutral) view that all parties were at fault but then saw a bunch of posts about how posters couldn’t believe others were siding with Disney. Throughout that whole thread I haven’t seen one single poster say they agreed with Disney’s decision, only that they understood it was Disney decision to make.But of course, if you’re not 100% in Gunn’s corner you’re allowing the “right wing nut jobs” to win. None of those posts were aimed directly at me so I never pushed my issue.

I stated my opinion in the Bond thread that I didn’t think one particular actor should be cast as Bond and I gave my reasons for it that weren’t racially motivated. I understand the reasons on BOTH sides of that debate but, again, this is an all or nothing society so if you have other reasons why a black man shouldn’t be cast as Bond you’re a racist, which to me, is the most laughable, juvenile argument you could resort to. As I’ve stated in that thread, I’m not that big of a Bond fan to begin with so I tend to ignore the petty bickering.

I do wander into the Trump thread in the politics forum from time to time and have been known to pile on Trump for his idiotic decisions but I also did my best not to call out or attack certain members who may not agree. I know a handful that were there, and while there was certainly some trolling behavior, I wouldn’t necessarily call them trolls. And let’s be honest, there was trolling behavior on the other side as well.

Maybe one reason why things have gotten so politically motivated in these various threads lately is that the threads themselves have political currents running through them. The sexual assault thread and the James Gunn thread are two that immediately come to mind. It’s hard to discuss those issues and leave out politics because politics is a large part of it.

hdnmickey

There are blunt posts about racism, sexism, and the calling out of lies because those threads contain those things. If anything is getting out of hand here it's that the racists and MRA folks think they can post their shot here without anybody pointing of their views for what they are. Which of course is the primary MO - shitting on minorities or women, and then playing the victim when their views are called out for what they are.

DVD Polizei

DVD Talk isn't the place to air out your own personal and politically jaded theories in life. Go to an AA meeting for that. Or start one.

Once again, we're having the same discussion (i.e. "you're a racist an hate women")s, and the same problems are still here...but now...it's spreading.

If Cancer isn't the proper term, I don't know what is.

And I suspect this thread will be closed shortly, to avoid talking about this very real problem...

B5Erik

Are you even halfway serious?

Wow.

Racists and MRA folks. Primary M.O. - shitting on minorities or women. Just. Wow.

Houston, we REALLY have a problem.

Josh-da-man

Yeah, this is a very "political" time we're living in. Things like lady Ghosybusters, black James Bond, #MeToo, gay/trans characters, women in Star Wars, and female Doctor Who are going to be political whether we like it or not.

Both ideological sides are deeply entrenched and at war with each other.

Fifteen years ago, Michelle Yeoh being cast in a Star Trek series as a captain would have had the nerds masturbating in the streets. Now they're going berserk because she's a minority woman taking a position a white man is entitled to have.

B5Erik

And this is why I went off last night.

There are people who are attacking the character of those who don't walk in lockstep with their point of view, and attacking them in the absolute worst way possible. I mean, it really is going nuclear to attack the personal character of someone (calling someone a racist, or sexist, or homophobe, or a flat out liar, etc). Once you destroy someone's personal reputation you have forever silenced them, which almost seems to be the goal.

It's fair to go after a position or an opinion and strongly disagree with it, but attacking the character of the person posting those positions and opinions crosses the line. Way over the line.

hdnmickey

If you can read through that Ghostbusters thread and not see the obvious MRA level misoginism, there is certainly a problem. Just not the one you are complaining about.

B5Erik

But what about people who aren't firmly on either side? It seems like they get incorrectly lumped in to the right leaning side if they aren't posting in lockstep with the left. I voted for Johnson in the last two Presidential elections, support legalization of marijuana, and cannot stand Trump, but I'm called a racist, homophobe, sexist, Alt-Right Cernovich supporter (when I literally had never heard of him before the James Gunn firing). Oh, and I'm called a liar, too! (Unreliable, inconsistent liar.)

Who the hell has a problem with Michelle Yeoh? I don't. I love her. Hell, she's one of the reasons why I like the third Mummy movie! She's one of the reasons why Tomorrow Never Dies is one of my favorite Bond movies! (A Bond girl that kicks ass? Yes, please!)

Didn't they kill her off in Discovery? I don't know, because I hated the first episode and didn't want to pay for the rest. (I hated the changes made to Star Trek on Discovery - just like I don't want changes to Bond. I'm not a fan of unnecessary change just for change's sake.) But, if anything, had she been a regular on the series - as a Captain, that would have made me MORE interested in the show.

B5Erik

You know, it IS possible to be against an all female Ghostbusters team for reasons other than sexism. Not everyone opposed to the concept was an, "MRA," type.

But you have, basically, lumped everyone opposed to the idea in with the sexists and MRA folks.

And that's just a small part of the problem.

hdnmickey

Which in my experience is only a problem when those choosing to take part play the "do as I say, not as I do" game. Calling anybody that disagrees with them a "SJW" a pussy that "swallowed the wrong pill".

Their real "problem" is that those with the ability to change things are no longer going to succumb to their pressure to keep the things run by white men. I think most of us remember that success of the women rights and civil rights movements had to be forced on people for a reason.