Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Direct, or indirect as Jay noted above, it's still a personal attack and shouldn't be allowed.

But there seems to be a willingness to let that stuff slide, especially when it's someone with a right of center opinion being attacked.

I was recently indirectly called a sexist on the Politics board. I called that comment/accusation stupid (it was pretty absurd, so I said so) and then I was rather vociferously taken to task by our newest Mod for doing so.

I said SPECIFICALLY that the comment/accusation was stupid, and the Mod jumped all over me for it in a lenghy public diatribe.

What the hell is going on here? Has this really become, "DVD/LIBERAL TALK," with no moderate or, heaven forbid, conservative voices welcomed?

Liberals are allowed to make personal attacks, but moderates and conservatives aren't even allowed to defend themselves without being lectured about how inappropriate that kind of defense that is?? (Even when the defense is 100% within the rules and the attack was in violation of forum rules!)

There really is a SERIOUS problem here.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Anybody else that often votes for Conservatives/Republicans (at least locally) disturbed when bigoted beliefs are categorized as being conservative?

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

It's not being categorized as conservative that's the problem. (Although I'm left of center on some issues, so I consider myself fairly moderate overall, but if you want to call me a conservative I don't see that as an insult, just ever so slightly off the mark.)

It's being categorized as being racist or sexist that's the problem. That's a personal attack, and is against forum rules. Period.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

When you try and make it all about a liberal bias by the mods/admins, you're are most definitely categorizing the misogyny and bigotry being called out as being conservative.

So if that's not your intent, you may want to find another angle other than political bias. :lol:

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Politically correct bias, then?

Look, you cannot tell me that there isn't a bias there and the moderation is allowing personal attacks to continue, despite such attacks being violations of forum rules.

And, I'm sorry, but I'm not seing any real bigotry anywhere on this board. I've seen true bigotry, and what goes on here isn't even close to being that.

Comparing Hillary's cackling laugh to the Wicked Witch, for example, is not sexist. It's a fairly accurate comparison. Guys take a lot worse abuse here than that.

I think the true sexists are the ones who think women are LESS THAN. IF you really think they need special protection and can't take a little, "Ball busting," then you're the sexist. See how that works?

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Actually I can having seen the mod warnings and suspesions that have been handed out since I started reading/posting here. At least politically biased, which has been the only example if bias given so far.


Beyond that statement being very telling, it's also worthless. You don't get to define bigotry.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Neither do you.

I just refuse to be politically correct. I'm not worried about offending people if what I'm saying isn't really offensive. I have never said that women or minorities are, "Less than," in any way (other than women being less than physically - men are bigger, faster, and stronger, but other than that women are the equal of men in every important way).

That doesn't mean that men and women are the same (they're not), that doesn't mean that blacks and whites have the exact same life experiences and can completely relate to each other (they can't, unfortunately - because of the racists on both sides).

So if I say a black man can't be Bond because his life experiences would be different than the Bond we've come to know, that isn't a racist statement, just a statement of fact. If I say that a black Bond can't go undercover as easily and go as easily unnoticed in a place like, say, Moscow or some Nordic country as Bond could, that's not a racist statment, just a statement of fact. If I say that a black Bond would face some ugly racism and face some ugly, nasty racial epithets that a white Bond wouldn't it's not racist, just reality.

But when I post things like that I'm told I'm a sexist and a racist, which is utter and complete nonsense.

Just because a black man is the intellectual equal of a white man doesn't mean he isn't different in some important ways (life experiences, attitudes because of those life experiences, obstacles he's had to overcome, etc).

Oh, my - I dared to post about differences! I must be racist, right??

Bullshit.

I know for a fact that many black people are the SUPERIORS of many white people. I wouldn't trade my supervisor at work for ANYONE. Oh, by the way, SHE is a black woman who is 5 years younger than me, and I have more respect and admiration for her both as a person AND as a supervisor than anyone in the building (a building that employs 2,500 people). I see her as my superior in just about every way possible (at least every way that is truly important).

Oh, but I forgot - that's impossible because I'm a fucking sexist racist.

Like I said, those accusations are bullshit.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Yet another very telling statement. In other words, if it's not offensive to me, what's the problem?

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

I think this is reference to this post, which you later called stupid:
I do feel that is a problem post. Did you report it?

However, there does need to be room in the conversation for people to argue that criticizing a woman for her voice, especially for being "shrill," is sexist:
https://debuk.wordpress.com/2016/03/...of-the-shrill/

I also don't see any sort of public "diatribe" from a mod on your responding post.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

There is no delimiter for what's "really" offensive. If people are offended by it, then to them it's offensive. You don't get to say their offense isn't real because you don't share it.

Also, if people find your statement racist, sexist, etc, they can say so. It doesn't matter if you don't perceive them as so, they have different experiences and have their own opinions that they have the same right to voice as you do.

They shouldn't be calling you racist or sexist. But honestly, considering you're going into discussions of race and gender and suggesting that the acting roles people can play should be restricted based on those aspects of a person, claims of sexist or racist thinking shouldn't be unexpected.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Two more of the type of personal attacks I posted about.

Explain to us what you mean by "very telling".

Could you mean,"This tells me what kind of person you are." or , "This tells me all I need to know about you".

Explain what you mean by "very telling" if not that.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Way to hone in on one sentence and take it largely out of context while ignoring the substance of a rather substantive post.

My point there is simply this - there are people who are going to be offended by just about anything you post if it is on a subject that they find sensitive.

If I say that the average woman is smaller, slower, and weaker than the average man some people will be offended by that statement, and call it sexist, even though it is factually accurate.

That's what I'm talking about in that comment that you quoted. If people are offended by a statement like that then that's on them. You can't change facts just because you don't like them. And getting upset because someone dares to post those facts doesn't make those posts offensive. In other words, just because someone is offended that doesn't make the comment truly offensive.

Hillary Clinton DOES have a laugh like the cackle of the Wicked Witch of the West. She just does, and it's not sexist to say so. It's just what she sounds like. If you don't like that take it up with Hillary and get her to stop. But by now that point (along with the abrasive personality) is moot since she isn't going to run for office in the future.

But if a man can be called out for having an abrasive personality and/or an annoying voice then so can a woman.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

There was no part of the rest of your post that wasn't invalided by the line I quoted. If you don't like statements like that detracting from the rest of your post, I would suggest not including them.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Unless you know someone you have no real basis, not enough of a basis, to accuse them of racism or sexism.

As I noted in my post above, I work for a black woman who is five years younger than me, and I respect and admire her more than anyone else that I work with. Period. I view people as individuals.

But people posting here don't know that. They jump to wild conclusions because they want to, because it makes their disapproval of certain points of view that much easier. It makes it that much easier to attack opinions when you assign them to someone that you simply dismiss as racist or sexist.

It's lazy and not very thoughtful (literally, not much thought is put into a personal attack like that - it's reflexive).

Guess what, in the real world a black man can't be a white woman's brother. Just not gonna happen. And in the movies such a thing is ridiculous (when was the last time you saw a black man adopt a white girl? Fant4stic). And that move, a totally PC move, killed the family dynamic of the comic. In the comic they are one big family. Is it racist to say that changing that dynamic was stupid? Is it racist to say that a black man can't be a white woman's brother? It shouldn't be since the statement just reflects reality.

But there are people here who took offense to that statement (and several people made it and were lambasted as racists for doing so).

Just because someone doesn't like a particular fact of life doesn't mean that the person bringing up that fact of life is a racist or that it's a racist comment.

Saying that a black man SHOULD never be able to adopt a white girl would be a racist statement. But merely saying that it just doesn't happen isn't.

And that's why I say that if some people are offended by statements like that then I'm not going to worry about it. I don't support holding people down or treating them differently just because of the color of their skin or the country of their family's origin. That kind of thing is bullshit.

But saying that a black James Bond would have significantly different life experiences than the Bond that many of us know and love isn't a racist statement. It's a statement of fact, not a value judgment on whether it's right or wrong that such a situation is (unfortunately) still a fact of life in 2018.

Calling that view, "Racist," is lazy and disingenuous.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

That, my friend, is laughable.

See my post above. Some people find all sorts of unoffensive stuff offensive. That doesn't make their views legitimate.

You cannot expect everyone to be politically correct just because some people are offended by comments that may be politically INcorrect. Some facts of life are politically incorrect, but they're still facts of life and they shouldn't be ignored or considered to be verboten subjects just because they aren't fair.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

I saw your attempt to redefine what is a personal attack. I have no response other than waiting for the mods and admins to make their call.

But I would suggest people stop taking statements not directed at them personally if they don't feel the statement applies to them. When people post about others being racists, homophobes, or misogynists, you will not see me rushing to defend myself.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

In your opinion.

I do not share that opinion because that is a sexist view!

Women can deal with ball busting just like men can. Women can deal with having their appearances addressed just like men can. Women can deal with having their voices ridiculed just like men can.

Women do not need special treatment. They've been telling us that for 50 years - and they're right!

Women are NOT Less Than.

https://forum.dvdtalk.com/13399632-post19224.html

Groucho ignored the one that YOU said crossed the line (he posted shortly thereafter and said not a word about it. Then Story read me the riot act and gave me a lecture about personal attacks WHEN I DIDN'T MAKE A PERSONAL ATTACK, I ATTACKED THE COMMENT! Clearly (that comment is stupid). I didn't address the person making the comment at all, just the lazy nature of calling me a sexist as stupid.

But Story didn't like me going after a stupid comment, so I got read the riot act. And the guy indirectly calling me a sexist got a free pass - by two Mods.

I followed the rules, the other person didn't, and I was the one who got reprimanded.

WTF?????

You cannot tell me that wasn't due to a bias because Story has been posting nothing but liberal points of view, points of view carried over to me by PM telling me how I was wrong and the other guy was OK.

When pressed on it further (and I'll admit I was a bit testy as a friend of mine at work died suddenly and I wasn't in the best of moods because of that - a fact I forwarded to Story as a bit of context) Story failed to explain why the other guy's indirect attack on my character was OK while my refusal to accept his COMMENT (as stupid) wasn't OK.

There really is a problem here.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

"I will not be politically correct" says the person demanding that people not use terms like racist or bigot or sexist to describe posts that sound racist, bigoted, or sexist, with no sense of irony.

There's a problem in this place alright. It's just not what some think it is.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Jeez, sorry about your friend, B5. That kind of thing can throw you for a loop for sure.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Yes, there is a problem all right - personal attacks are allowed if you are on the left. But if you are in the middle or right of center you cannot even call a comment, "Stupid," even if you clearly are just addressing the comment.

There is a double standard here.

Just because someone posts a comment that reflects reality doesn't make them a racist. I think part of the problem is that the people on the left here misconstrue comments that talk about things as they are as endorsements of those things. I'm not endorsing the fact that a black James Bond would have different life experiences than a white James Bond. I don't like that fact, but it is a fact.

But people act like I'm jumping for joy when I post those comments ("Woo-Hoo, blacks got it tough! They can't get into an Upper Class, elitist establishment in Britain! FUCKIN-A, YEAH!!!!!"). -rolleyes-

Just the opposite is true. It think its all kinds of wrong and, frankly, more than a little depressing. The fact that people assume the worst is far more insulting that anything I could ever post.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

All else aside, my condolences man. That's tough. Last year I found out a childhood friend and her toddler were murdered.

I say this with 100% respect and concern. Make sure you take some time to grieve if you haven't. When bad shit goes down, it's always (always) a good idea to step away from Online for a bit to appreciate the real world stuff that matters.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

He was THE most beloved and popular - and indispensible - member of our entire region. And he was only a couple years older than me. Heart attack and stroke - but he was on the road to recovery and we all thought he'd be (relatively) OK. Then, BOOM. Gone. Everyone was in shock. A lot of people (including me) had to leave work early because it was such a distraction. People were crying, they had grief counselors - it was bad.

So I was extra testy.

Which is why I went off when someone got away with indirectly calling me a sexist and then I'm called on the carpet for calling such an accusation, "Stupid."

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

So you're back to the mods being politically biased again. :lol:

So the concerns of women and minorities are not legitimate unless you say there are? Wow. That's definitely my breaking point for this discussion.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Tell me how not enforcing a rules violation by someone on the left and then penalizing someone right of center for a non-rules violation isn't biased?

So you speak for women and minorities?

If a woman or a person of an ethnic background germane to the discussion has a problem with anything I post I'll be glad to explain my point of view and clear it up.

Short of that you have no standing to be offended on their behalf.

But I have not made any disparaging comments about women or minorities. I have never once said they are less than in any way. Women and minorities are the intellectual equals of white men. That I firmly believe. Got a problem with that?

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

B5Erik, you have my condolences. That just plain sucks, I can't imagine. May you and all who felt the love of your friend feel the comforting presence of the Spirit in their grief today and whenever it pays you a visit.

Hi, friends, away on a wonderful holiday weekend. Hope you all are finding some time to relax.

Just a brief moment to respond a little, as I'm personally being written about here in the third person. Don't know if I'd always do this, but I will this time.

1. I don't see the value in publicly commenting on the specific contents of PMs between members and me, especially regarding moderation, even if it's to clarify or correct. I won't be addressing any referenced PMs here, thanks. Maybe that will change in the future but that's where I stand today.
2. In that Trump thread (Oh, that Trump thread!) I lifted up an example out of many potentials and I neglected to bold everything I meant to bold. It was my mistake, I've corrected it, and I'm sorry about that.
3. In that post, which I wrote to everyone and not just one person, I asked an honest question about how we engage people, and requested that we do do better, all using the word "please." Twice. That, to me, does not in any way get to the level of vociferously taking anyone to task, jumping all over anyone, or reading anyone the riot act - any one person or the community at large. I'm glad to speak with everyone about my modding style, and I'd appreciate it if everyone would please characterize it in an accurate manner.
4. I have no political motivations or bias for how I mod nor for why I accepted the role six weeks ago. As I wrote in my welcome thread, it matters less to me "what" you write and more it's about "how" you write it. Your politics doesn't matter to me, it's whether you can assert your politics with civility or not that I think is important. If you want to see my motivation, check the sentence that's been in my signature for at least 5 or more years: "Choose kindness."
5. I made brats on the grill tonight. They had frickin' blueberries in them. They were awesome.

For more of my thoughts on how we all do better here, I'll point you to my post earlier in this thread.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

-popcorn-

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

I'd argue that even if someone knew someone else personally in the real world, there's still not place for namecalling on this forum.

But people can judge a person's statements to be sexist, racists, etc. It's up to them to determine what that is, and you can argue back your view, etc.

Call you a racist? No. Say that you made a racist comment? Yes. What you consider a "fact of life" may not be the same as others, and whether that should affect fictional movies is an entirely different argument. We're here to have a discussion, not to just shout statements to the void.

...which is how such a discussion should continue. They say it's racist, you counter it's not and/or say that their statement is racist, they come back and retort, etc.

https://i.imgur.com/s53FQYQ.png

Just to re-iterate, I think you've made some points about personal attacks needing to be better watchdogged, but your argument sometimes skirts the line between "that was a personal attack," and "I don't want my opinions challenged."

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Story already responded, but I’ll post my thoughts from last night before I got distracted.

My take on the story comment on Friday 8/31, he was trying to diffuse the situation before it got out of hand, before the thread became a “dumpster fire,” as has been noted here. He picked a couple of random examples, he was not stating that the two examples he chose were the only issues. He was being proactive and addressed a potential issue as the mods have been asked to do in this very thread.

I’ve read back a bit and I don’t have any specific examples of liberals not getting dealt with in the thread in question and I don’t have any RTP emails about the thread in question, so it makes it harder for me to do anything corrective here.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

A black man can't be a white woman's brother? There are hundreds if not thousands of people in this situation and you think it can't happen in the real world? You never heard of adoption? You never heard of a person with kids get married and the other person adopting the kids? You never heard of people having babies by different races? You never heard of mixed race families that have children with different skin tones?

Your statement is wrong and incredibly stupid. Madonna has black son and white daughter along thousands of other people. My best friend, a black man, got married to a white woman and adopted her white kid. They had two other kids so now they have white and black siblings in the real world which apparently you don't live in. My high school teacher has two mixed raced daughters but they don't look mixed. One looks white and other black. This happen in the real world.

James Bond is a fictional character. He doesn't live in the real world where real things happen. His history is fictional and has changed multiple times because he isn't real. A fictional character can have any history and that is a fact. So yes your statement was racist and almost as stupid as your statement that black men can't have white sisters. That was just on another level of crazy. I'm shocked no one else even commented on how dumb it was. There are like a hundred other examples in the REAL WORLD that can be given out. John McCain has a black kid along with the white ones. That one racist senator that knocked up his maid has black kid along with the white ones. Jolie has a rainbow of kids. Jesus Christ there is only one other posters that puts out this level of weird posts that have no bases in reality. The only differences is you actually believe the garbage you post.

I just need to point out that Santa Claus isn't real and can be black also. Black Santa doesn't remove white Santa from existence. The same is true of James Bond because neither are real.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

Of course I have. (In fact, I spent some time going over adoption in that post...)

However, there is no way that Michael B. Jordan could be Kate Mara's brother - (if they wanted to go that route they'd need actors of at least somewhat mixed ethnic backgrounds to make it work) - except by adoption, which completely changes the family dynamic that was originally presented in the comic book. Secondarily, as I noted before, it may be wrong, it may be unfair, but a single black man is extremely unlikely to be approved to adopt a white girl, so adoption becomes a bit of a fantasy.

But they went the adoption route, and that really changed the family dynamic of the group in Fant4stic (when compared to the source material). And that is what people bitched about.

Notice I'm not endorsing these facts of life as a good thing. I'm not stating these things with glee. We are just not yet to an enlightened time when such things are considered backwards and primitive thinking.

My point, however, was that the change they made to the family dynamic in Fant4stic hurt the movie. It made a change for the worse from the source material. It didn't work. But why did they do it if it didn't improve on the source material? It certainly looked like a move to be inclusive and politically correct. It wasn't a move based on better storytelling. And that's the issue a lot of people have - that these changes aren't made to tell a better story, but to score points among their peers for being inclusive and politically correct. Anyone who knows the political climate in Hollywood knows that's true. So are those offensive statements, or just honest observations of how things are?


Oh, and yet again one sentence is taken out of context to allow for outrage.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

I'd argue that adoption plays better to the family dynamic. The Fantastic Four is the family they made rather than the family at least some of them were born into.

Is it any less realistic than a teenager engineering the means to teleport to another dimension, a man who can stretch his limbs like Silly Putty, a woman who can turn invisible and generate force fields, empowering someone to engulf himself in flames without getting burned and also fly, become a rocky behemoth with superhuman strength?

That's okay, but a successful, respected scientist adopting a daughter of a different race? That's a bridge too far! (Nevermind the fact that any such concerns had already been explained away by having Sue be adopted as a baby from Eastern Europe.)

Or Josh Trank wanting to work again with an actor he'd had already had a terrific experience with.

I feel like I've heard this before.

https://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/imag...36071509_1.jpg

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

"political correctness" -rolleyes-

This should be required viewing before people spout off on this dumb idea.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

And yet again with the personal attacks on character. (I don't have any idea who's picture that is, but I'm sure it's a pretty damned bad person - making that nasty personal attack.)

So Sue was adopted as a baby from Eastern Europe? That's pretty damned far removed from the source material, which is the problem a lot of people had. The source material was so radically changed that it didn't resemble the Fantastic Four except in name and the powers of the team members.

I also had a problem with how young they made the characters (as did a lot of people) and how they portrayed Ben Grimm. But those gripes didn't seem germane to this discussion.

I guess it's considered wrong around here to prefer movies stick to the source material as closely as possible rather than making unnecessary changes.

By the way, the future isn't black and white, it's varying shades of mahogany brown. And that's probably a good thing, since we can't have discussions like these without people getting angry and attacking someone (on personal level) who posts what is perceived to be a politically incorrect statement.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

I'd like to add again that these are FANTASY movies, and in particular, ones that depict the world as we WISH IT COULD BE (superpowers, super-cool gadgets and spies). They are wish-fulfillment fantasies, so to hold them to real-world standards isn't tenable.

If we want a world where black people can live without any prejudice, why not start in the movies?

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised by B5 since he believes the birther movement wasn't racist.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

I feel the recent discussion of specific arguments and such for specific movies is a bit off-topic for this thread, and any talk of Fantastic 4 should move to an F4 discussion thread, for example.

However, the recent posts are an example that we can have discussions like these without personal attacks.

BTW, this bit:
That's a picture of James Damore, who wrote the infamous "Google memo," who defended the offensive statements he made by saying, basically, the same argument you made, that they were "just honest observations of how things are." He wasn't saying you are James Damore, but that you're making the same argument he did.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

I disagree with the premise that only people who look mixed can be mixed. As Baron of Hell said, sometimes they just don't.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

It also ridiculous to go on about how movies "should stick to the source material" if they are not going to be set in the time the source material is written. So much of the inherent racism in the source material makes far less sense when a movie is set in the present day.

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

These are biological twins:

https://cdn.cnn.com/cnnnext/dam/asse...xlarge-169.jpg

http://thumbpress.com/wp-content/upl...hite-twins.jpg

Re: Houston, We Have A Problem...
 

^ liberal propaganda! /s