Travis McClain

I'm familiar with the character, but haven't seen the film so I have no idea how prevalent the fantasy/supernatural elements were in the movie. If you feel that they're played off as little more than part of the "legend" of Jonah Hex and no more fantastic than, say, the story of a hanged man who becomes a vigilante, then go for it. If, however, you feel it makes more sense for the Sci-Fi/Fantasy Challenge, then go ahead and defer till then. The Wild Wild West movie from the late 90s clearly is more appropriate for the SF Challenge than ours, if that helps establish any guideline for tone.

I'm still cobbling together the checklist ideas, but I think one mark for the U.S. presidency should be sufficient. I know that for ages the subject of history was taught in the U.S. almost term-by-term, but the truth is that the presidency--despite my personal adoration of the office and its history--should not dominate the subject in general. Also, because of the length of so many qualifying titles, I'm angling for a fairly streamlined checklist that promotes maximum diversity, but minimal scheduling hassle. I don't think anyone wants to feel like they've got to squeeze in four three-hour movies a weekend during a summer month just to keep up.

davidh777

Correct, 1776 does have future presidents, most prominently John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. Washington .

History Channel movies would be a good resource:

Travis McClain

I just watched Jonah Hex for my comic book-themed Make-Your-Own Challenge, and I'm gonna go ahead and say this one really isn't appropriate for this challenge. It's not necessarily the supernatural elements that seemed out of place, as Western lore is ripe with tall tales of men returning from the dead to hunt down those who've wronged them and mystical healing powers of Native American medicine men, etc. But the stylized action is more like a video game than a Western, the technology shown is reminiscent of that shown in Wild Wild West and it's all tied together by a rock-heavy score that just doesn't contribute to an aesthetic that feels right for this challenge. If anyone who's seen it wants to argue the point I'm open to being persuaded, but it just seems too much of a stretch.

davidh777

I didn't put that one on my iPod so I could save it for the challenge

Travis McClain

This is the first challenge I've hosted outside the TV on DVD* Challenge in January, where the in/out rules were much easier to define, a checklist seemed contrary to the viewing habits of participants and counting made no sense. For this one, though, things are clearly different. I got to thinking some more about this, and I want to consult everyone about an idea:

1 checklist item for "Wrong What, Right When" - a movie set in a distinct historical era, but about events that are simply inaccurate, implausible or outrageous

OR

1 wildcard for your viewing list, to be used as you please

If we go with the checklist option, then viewing something off-kilter becomes more "mandatory" for those who bother with checklists. But I also know that sometimes checklists help validate picking titles that participants might otherwise avoid. I'll leave it popular consensus (which can also tell me this is an entirely unnecessary act of pandering and should be scrapped).

davidh777

Actually Jonah Hex is my own fault. Subcinsciously I guess I'd started thinking of this as the War/Westerns challenge again and figured Hex was a Western. But a little while ago I was thinking that something like Desperado would *not* qualify because despite its Western feel it's clearly present day. I haven't seen Hex but given current parameters I wouldn't expect to count it.

Who knows when if ever I'm going to watch that turd, but counting it in a challenge would make me feel a little bit better about it.

Travis McClain

I actually liked it. I wish it had been played more as a straight Western, of course, but I thought Brolin and Malkovich were perfectly cast. And Megan Fox was there purely as eye candy, and that's one thing she does unquestionably well. Still, I thought the animated Jonah Hex short that was included with Batman: Under the Red Hood was better.

Ash Ketchum

What examples can you give for "Wrong What, Right When"? The first thing I think of is the typical caveman movie where humans and dinosaurs co-exist, e.g. Harryhausen's ONE MILLION YEARS B.C. (1966). Then I think of something like SHANGHAI KNIGHTS (2003), the Jackie Chan/Owen Wilson thing where they're in London in the 1880s and there are cars in it, long before cars were invented, and a young Charlie Chaplin who declares he's going off to California to make movies, at around the time Chaplin was barely born and years before movies were invented.

On a related note, what about time-traveling films that use historical figures like BILL AND TED'S EXCELLENT ADVENTURE?

Travis McClain

I'd say both of those fit the nature of "Wrong What, Right When." Another might be O Brother, Where Art Thou?, which conflates and amalgamates several historical people, places and events to create its setting. Basically, the idea is that you get a feel for a time and place that is recognizably historic even though the content is clearly not rooted in reality in the least.

I thought about those, but I think they're better suited for the Sci-Fi/Fantasy Challenge in July, where "Time Traveling Movie" is a staple of the checklist. I would, however, accept one such film as your "Wrong What, Right When" selection. Just no more than that one per list. Sound reasonable?

Ash Ketchum

More questions and some suggestions:

What about films based on mythological figures and folk heroes? I'm assuming Robin Hood and the Trojan War are acceptable, but what about films based on Greek and Roman myths, e.g. JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS and various Hercules films, and Arabian Nights, e.g. anything with Sinbad, Aladdin or Ali Baba?

And going further, what about films based on Chinese/Japanese folk tales, like Momotaro, the Monkey King, Madame White Snake, et al. These tend to be more in the realm of fantasy than historical dramas, but they're based on classic Chinese and Japanese texts and there are a couple I'd like to view for this.

Now, here are some suggested checklist items, with examples provided:

Western outlaws and lawmen (anything about Wyatt Earp, Jesse James, Billy the Kid, et al)
Prohibition/Depression-era crime (anything about Al Capone, John Dillinger, Bonnie & Clyde, Dutch Schultz, etc.)
Ancient history (THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, HELEN OF TROY, TROY; anything Biblical)
European History (anything about Queen Elizabeth I or Marie Antoinette; the Crusades, Knights-in Armor, Vikings, the Renaissance, Napoleon, etc.)
Asia (THE GOOD EARTH, HERO, CURSE OF THE GOLDEN FLOWER, tons of Chinese/Hong Kong films about Chinese history; samurai films about historical figures; colonial India, etc.)
Africa (ZULU, ZULU DAWN, STANLEY AND LIVINGSTONE, KHARTOUM, THE MOUNTAINS OF THE MOON, many others)
The New World (history of the Americas): CAPTAIN FROM CASTILE, PLYMOUTH ADVENTURE, KINGS OF THE SUN, AGUIRRE THE WRATH OF GOD, POCAHONTAS, THE NEW WORLD, APOCALYPTO
Biopics:
Scientists/inventors/businessmen (THE STORY OF LOUIS PASTEUR, MADAME CURIE, THE MAGIC BOX, TUCKER THE MAN AND HIS DREAM, THE AVIATOR)
Authors/writers/poets (THE BARRETTS OF WIMPOLE STREET, THE LIFE OF EMILE ZOLA, JULIA, THE HOURS)
Musicians: (RHAPSODY IN BLUE, NIGHT AND DAY, AMADEUS, THE MUSIC LOVERS, THE BUDDY HOLLY STORY, BIRD, RAY, WALK THE LINE)
Painters/artists: (LUST FOR LIFE, SURVIVING PICASSO, BASQUIAT, FRIDA)
Generals/military leaders (PATTON, MACARTHUR, LAWRENCE OF ARABIA, EL CID)
Revolutionaries (JUAREZ, VIVA VILLA, VIVA ZAPATA, CHE!)
Presidents (ABE LINCOLN IN ILLINOIS, NIXON)
Conspiracy history/blacklist/Red Scare (I WAS A COMMUNIST FOR THE FBI, THE MANCHURIAN CANDIDATE, THE FRONT, JFK)

Just some thoughts...

caligulathegod

We had a discussion on mythological films last year, but I can't remember how it went. I think we excluded them. There might have been (an admittedly culturally biased) exclusion allowing in religious films like 10 Commandments, if I recall. I'll see if I can find the section in last year's thread.

caligulathegod

Ok, re-reading last year...it wasn't clear about myth films. There was a checklist item about religious films:
MinL is running this one, so this is just my opinion. Myth films probably shouldn't be included as the films are more fantasy oriented. Religious films, even though they might contain fantasy elements, are included as they are intended to be representations of "history". Old Testament and New are easy. I would include films about Buddha, Abraham (they exist), Confucius, etc. or stories centered around historical depictions of religions and religious figures. Harryhousen et al might just be too much for what's intended here. It's only a month from the Sci-Fi/Fantasy Challenge, anyway.

Travis McClain

Regarding mythological/folk hero content, I think the most prudent policy is to focus on the specific tone of the film in question. For instance, one can scarcely imagine studying Ancient Greece without a thorough discussion of the art created then. In fact, this was a sticking point for many who balked at Troy: by divorcing the chronicled historical events from the mythological, the film failed to satisfactorily represent the legend.

The most important thing to ask is, "Is this a film that makes sense for the Sci-Fi/Fantasy Challenge?" If the answer is yes, then avoid it here. I would consider 300 a litmus test. Anything more fantastic in tone than that is definitely out. As it is, the most glaring deficiencies of that film are its video game-style aesthetics, its obviously made-up costumes and creatures and the fact that it outright ignores or invents story elements. And yet, for all its shortcomings, it's hard to definitively say that it belongs in the SF Challenge more than this one.

So, yeah, I do think there's a valid place for mythological-based content, but not a blanket in/out ruling. This challenge is hard to have exacting rules, because even though most of us were taught in school that History is about learning names and dates and repeating that by rote, the truth is that it's a field of interpretation and exploration. The very nature of the discipline allows for competing notions of what events and people matter in the first place, and then what their significance really is. Films are works of art, and their nature is to help us explore life. Naturally, there are infinite ways in which the discipline of History and the medium of film can intersect.

I would say that most participants should be able to satisfy their "Is this in/out?" questions pretty easily, though.

"Does this film take place in a distinctive, recognizable period?"
"Is the tone of the film appropriate to the subject matter?"
"Does this film appear to be a plausible representation of a valid interpretation of the events/people depicted?"
"Is this film better suited for another challenge?"

One thing I would urge participants to do is just poke your head around the web and see if you can glean a cursory understanding of the content. Maybe you want to watch 300 but have little idea what the actual battle at Thermopylae was. Spend a few minutes on Wikipedia (or, better still, check out The History Channel's outstanding Last Stand at Thermopylae special). At least that will give you some context for what you're viewing.

I'm not much of a micro-manager; it's not really my style as an individual largely because I despise being micro-managed. If anyone thinks my somewhat ambiguous approach to this challenge isn't helpful, I'll become more exacting but I think, given that we're all adults here, that as long as no one is trying to pass off a list that shows Doctor Zhivago, Lawrence of Arabia, The Bridge on the River Kwai and Braveheart as one night's viewing, and that doesn't try to include Black Dynamite as a film about the 1970s, we should be alright.

Trevor

That's only about 13 hours. Piece of cake!

Ash Ketchum

And no fast-forwarding allowed!

Ash Ketchum

Yeah, some of the things I was thinking of definitely hew more to the Sci-fi/Fantasy Challenge. But then you've got films like the Steve Reeves version of THE TROJAN HORSE, which is straight Greeks-vs.-Trojans warfare, with nary a God to be seen or heard. And in terms of Arabian Nights, the 1944 version of ALI BABA AND THE 40 THIEVES has no supernatural elements at all, but posits the 40 Thieves as a band of rebels opposing Mongol rule of Bagdad and is set in a very specific time and place. So it really is a case-by-case basis.

caligulathegod

Yeah, those sound eligible.

Travis McClain

Alright, I've tinkered and come up with a checklist that I think should be open enough to allow maximum choice while still nudging participants to try different things. We've still got plenty of time for me to revise this if there's a problem.

Check List

I've streamlined most categories to five requirements, and you'll see that they're not specific in most general categories. The reason for this is that I think it's sufficient that you pick five unique settings (decades, centuries, countries, wars, etc.), rather than dictate what those five should be.

Secondly, I've expanded the General checklist to include a film about women's history, a film about minorities and a film about LGBT rights. These are tremendously important topics that have been explored in film and I feel they should be represented in any Historical Appreciation Challenge. From Joan of Arc to Malcolm X, from Harvey Milk to Geronimo, there are numerous stories told on screen about the people and events that have shaped our collective story. I hope these checklist items will inspire you to explore some of them.

I looked hard at the checklist to find a way to insert the aforementioned Samurai films, but ultimately I elected to omit them this year as a specific checklist item--though they are perfectly welcomed to be viewed. This year, I would ask our pro-Samurai friends to be content with checking off various setting-specific marks (such as century, country, etc.). I'll try to do better with integrating them next year.

Lastly, I have expanded the Western checklist to include films based on a novel, told from a Native American perspective, told from the perspective of outlaws and about cross-country travel. I think those should be fairly popular themes within the Western genre, and it brings the Western sub-checklist up to ten items.

davidh777

Thanks, MinLShaw! Looks fun and not too schoolteacherish.

I might suggest a little language tweak to "during one of five decades" or something along those lines.

Travis McClain

Glad you like it!

Good catch! Fixed.

Ash Ketchum

LGBT...LGBT...I don't have much in that category that I know of. Let's see, I've got THE TIMES OF HARVEY MILK taped off PBS a couple of decades ago, but that may be it. That's gonna be a tough one. I saw a samurai film about a gay relationship at the New York Film Festival some years ago, but I don't remember the name of it and I don't have it on tape or disc. Hercules and Hylas supposedly got it on, but I have to save JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS for the sci-fi/fantasy challenge. NEXT STOP GREENWICH VILLAGE (1976), Paul Mazursky's autobiographical film about growing up in the 1950s, has a gay character in it. Would that count?

Hong Kong films are full of gender-bending, but it's not quite the same thing. THE EAST IS RED about the man-turned-woman Asia the Invincible (played by Brigitte Lin) takes place hundreds of years ago and has been shown at lots of gay and lesbian film festivals. I'd like to use it, but it's filled with fantasy touches. For women's history, I've got Hong Kong and Chinese films about "the lady general Hua Mulan." So I have no need to ask about the Disney Mulan, which I would reject anyway on account of its talking dragon.

What famous people have been outed since movies were made about them that I might have films about in my collection? Y'know, like Alexander the Great...?

The Man with the Golden Doujinshi

I'm sure there's a billion indie movie to help out with that one.

davidh777

Using the 300 rule, it sounds like Spartacus: Blood and Sand would qualify? Similar to 300 in tone and subject matter but without the funky creatures and villains--on the other hand, it's not based on a historical event.

I watched a couple episodes last weekend and might watch some more if I can get "credit."

Travis McClain

Here's a starting point of LGBT historical fiction/non-fiction films on Wikipedia. Plenty of other suggestions on that page, too, including several bio pics. I'm sure others can expand on these.

Travis McClain

I haven't watched, but it seems like it'd be fine as it depicts a specific historical setting and its tone isn't completely outrageous.