The dubbing on Bava's Black Sunday isn't bad - I wasn't particularly distracted by it. That's the only one I can think of however, and I'd still obviously rather have the Italian language track.

I like to consider myself very open minded, and I don't think a dub can't be better than the original soundtrack. However, like John, I've never heard one that is. Could you, for my benefit, provide an example?

I love the English Dub of Mad Max over the Australian original mix. Both for nostalgic reasons, and I think it sounds pretty good that way after trying to give the original language mix a listen.

The person who listed Argento and similar films as prefering the 'dub' to the 'original' doesn't completely count. Since the films were shot without sound, and then dubbed into numerous languages for various countries. So all versions are dubbed. And usually the english dub sounds best on these films, since the main stars are usually english and speaking in english on set. While other stars are speaking in their own language.

While I always prefer to watch films with their original soundtracks, I'm not totally opposed to dubbed versions if they're the only show in town. I am sometimes curious to see how English dubs sound (i.e. on The Crimson Rivers and Empire of Wolves), but that's part of the beauty of DVD - being able to sample both (usually.)
Of recent films, I'm really glad I saw The Fox & the Child with its original soundtrack, as the Kate Winslet dub doesn't sound too hot from what I've heard of it. But I would've gone to see it in that version had the original one not been possible; I don't let dubbing get in the way of a film I want to watch.
I thought the English dub on Inside was OK, and the one on Demy's A Slightly Pregnant Man is just about servicable. But there are some really terrible dubs out there that stand out - the first UK R2 of The City of Lost Children had a dreadful English dub that was the only included audio option.
I think there is also sometimes a tendency to think that dubbing is a uniquely Anglophone phenomenon. Most of the French cinemas near me only play films in French - so either local product or dubbed films. Some of these dubs are OK, but Lost Highway in French? Do me a favour...

Dazza.

Its completely subjective...there is no right answer to this question.

Dubs are great in animated films.

The problem with this is many of the international productions do not have a true original language track. Watching Bava's BLACK SABBATH in Italian its clear that most of the cast is speaking English...in many of these films the actors are speaking in whatever language they were comfortable most with with approriate dubbing to be done later. Eastwood was not speaking Italian in all those Leone films....not much here for a purist position I think.

Just to add to Carcosa's point above - 1900 is a prime example of such a production...

Dazza.

Yes, which is why it was considerate of Paramount to include several audio tracks. Listening to De Niro and Sutherland dubbed would be too distracting for me, so I always choose the English dub.

I just have to add that Julie Walker made the very same point a few posts before and I didn't see it until now.... -smile-

I tried to watch the dub of Old Boy and barely made it 5 minutes, then skipped to the tongue scene to see how that went. Obviously, it was hilarious.

A dub can turn something so intense and emotional to a complete joke. I do think dubs on (some) anime can be great, Cowboy Bebop comes to mind, but it just isn't very good to completely detach a language from a performance.

Probably because all animated films with any voice work are dubbed regardless of the original language. ;)

Perfect example of how subjective all this is and possibly just how much some people are so certain that dubs are all bad, that they'll have that thought running through their heads while watching it and come to that conclusion without even being fair.

Just to test out how it would do, I showed the dub version of Old Boy to some friends of mine some years back. Not only did no one have any problem watching it, they commented on how well they thought it was dubbed. And if you were to talk to them about the movie, they would talk about it as strongly as anyone who saw the Korean version with English subtitles and enjoyed it that way. None of these people were stupid, ever had problems with subtitles, etc... Just regular people with jobs, lives, and a love for watching movies.

And this thing that only dubs on animated films are great is B.S. Some of the best dubs I have seen are on live action films. Considering how difficult it is to actually do, it is even that much more impressive than any animated film when it is well done.

That whole "dubs are only good for animated films" defense is typically repeated by some who are fans of anime dubs who try to find a "legitimate argument" to defend their love of dubs since elitists keep brining laughable moral issues as to why all dubs are evil. So such a reason is created so that they can gain acceptance from elitists.

I seem to find this absurd level of hate of dubs only on the English language forums and websites on the internet. It's all monkey see monkey do.

Neat!

Yeah, ain't it? :)

Of course it's subjective, practically everything about movies and altering movies is subjective, from Pan & Scan to colorization to different edits. Would you consider someone who defames all "Full Frame" versions of films as not being fair?

Did you then show them part of the movie in the original language with subtitles for comparison?

That's an unprovable statement. There very well be someone who enjoyed it even better than they did, and they may have enjoyed it even better had they watched it subtitled the first time through. There's no way to know for certain.

Are there any that you think are better than the original language track? For example, do you think watching Oldboy dubbed is a better experience than watching it subtitled in its original language?

How many different language forums/sites do you frequent? How many different languages do you know, and do you still listen to a film dubbed into English if you know the original language?

Even if the disdain for dubbing is strictly among English-speaking cinephiles, that doesn't mean it's without merit.

However, it seems like there's at least some in Europe who dislike dubbing:
http://www.ac-versailles.fr/etabliss...E/Doublage.htm
translated:
The dubbing is severely fought by [some] moviegoers and critics. Indeed, it has the disadvantage of destroying the climate sound closely linked to the original language and gives a voice to foreign players. Meanwhile, countries like Belgium or Switzerland who are bilingual or trilingual look at only subtitled films. The subtitling is magnified souevnt translation or summary of the subtleties of dialogue.

Between two imperfections, which to choose? The debate on the dubbing remains open.

^
Yeah, I always find it funny that America is so often criticized (or self-criticized) for dubbing (99% of the quotes on IMDB: "Stupid Americans can't read!"), and places like France that are "the height of culture" (my sarcastic quote) routinely dub English-language movies and TV. It happens (almost) wherever there's a viewing population that generally speaks only one language.

Are we really back to this again? Dubbing is not the same as pan and scan and colorization.

The main purpose of me showing the movie to them was for them to see it. It wasn't a prank or something. Discussion of the film was what then took place.

In any case, they all own the film now, so I imagine they have listened to it in Korean at some point.

How so? They all gave the movie high praise just about as anyone I've heard who spoke highly of the movie and saw it in Korean.

If you read earlier posts, then you have the answer to your first question. In regards to the English dub of Old Boy, I think it is very well made dub. I have some small issues here and there with it but I do think it's very solid. Not quite as good as the Korean in my opinion, but still a very strong effort and I would have no qualms if I were to show the movie to someone and they were to tell me they did not want to read subtitles.

This is another great thing about having well made dub tracks. While I myself have no problems with subtitles (in fact most of the films I have seen and own are subtitled), I do like to enjoy a well made dub. There are those that do not like reading subtitles however and in those cases if it is a film I really do want to show, then having a quality English dub would make everyone's life easier. They can sit back and enjoy the film and I won't have to worry about a bad dub ruining things or me having to force subtitles upon them if they don't want to.

I only participate in a very small handful of forums. I have visited some European DVD review websites because of certain links I was given or me just surfing around trying to find out information on certain releases, etc...

Generally the reviewers in Europe are more fair in judging dub tracks. I usually see a good, and even equal, amount of focus reviewing the quality of the sound mix on the dub tracks as much as the original tracks. So even if the reviewers do not like the particular dub track, they will still provide a review and information on the technical side during playback to assist those who would be interested in knowing about those tracks.

Whether or not I understand the spoken language of the film does not change my view of dubs. I still will test out the dub to see if I like it especially because most DVD releases do not credit the cast and crew of the dubs available. If I do, then depending on the situation I will watch the film the first time out with the dub or in the original language.

Yes, it does. The majority of it is pure hyperbole and does not serve those readers who would be interested.

That link is to a very simple article talking about dubbing and very quickly touches upon different aspects and topics on it. The part you quoted was from a small section presenting possible "pros and cons" in an objective view of the issue. Something that I notice you are not practicing because you fail to highlight the previous article's point on the "Advantages of Dubbing".

Translated by me (not Bablefish):

Some appreciate this method which avoids subtitles. It appeals to the general public insofar that it avoids reading subtitles and allows the audience a great opportunity to follow the action and plot. Also, the lower portion of the picture is not partially covered by the subtitles. One obtains a better understanding of the film.

Dubbing takes a fundamental aspect of a movie -- the performances of its actors -- strips it out and replaces it with completely different actors who were not present when the film was being made and had nothing to do with the film.

Now that we live in the digital age, it's possible for film studios to import a movie from another country and digitally replace all those "foreign" actors with friendly English-speaking American actors instead. Why would anyone want to watch Oldboy with all those Korean people in it, when the studio could erase them and paste in John Stamos and Alicia Silverstone instead, right?

You may think that's a swell idea, but what you're watching is not the original film.

Fixed.

All three are alterations of the original film, for the purposes of making the film more appealing to certain markets. The only differences between them is in precisely how they alter the original, and possibly in whether or not you feel it's "fair" for someone to object to one of these types of alterations on principle.

If that was the main purpose, why didn't you show it in the original language, since you claim none of them had a problem with subtitles?

I already stated why you made an unprovable statement, you just cut it when quoting. Your judgement is both subjective and anecdotal.

No, I don't, because you keep avoiding answering it. I would like an actual example of a film whose dub you enjoyed over the original language, since Old Boy is apparently not one.

You apparently have no qualms against showing it to people who don't mind subtitles either.

Why do you like them though, when you apparently don't even have a reason to even sample a dub, since their main purpose is as an alternative to subtitles. I personally have watched tons of foreign films on DVDs, and I couldn't even tell you what the majority of the dubs sound like, since I never bothered to even listen to a second of them. I understand why they're made available, just as I understand why 4:3 and colorized versions of films are made, I just decide they're not for me.

That's just apologia of the exact same type that has been used for decades for 4:3 frame alterations, colorization, and even editing of films. They're all about making the film more assessable, and altering films to the individual's tastes, instead of the individual viewing the film as it was originally meant to be seen.

For example, to reformulate your statement to supporting 4:3 alterations:

There are those that do not like black bars however and in those cases if it is a film I really do want to show, then having a quality 4:3 version would make everyone's life easier.

Are these European forums in English, or foreign language? Which language? Which forums?

You at least seem willing to acknowledge that there are European reviewers who don't like dubs. Whether they still review the dub or not is more a comment on their professionalism than on the merits of the dub.

So you're saying that if, for example, you know French, and you're watching a French language film, you may still watch the film dubbed in English [i]as a first viewing of the film?[i] Can you give an example of a film with which you've done this?

No, it wouldn't. A majority opinion doesn't make a correct opinion. Otherwise, your opinion would clearly be wrong since it's the minority in this forum.

This is completely separate from the above point, although you attempted to link the two. Bad criticism exists for everything, from individual films to the other forms of film alteration. Mention colorization, and you'll get a lot of "pure hyperbole" as well. Just because the majority of people can't successfully argue their opinion doesn't mean that opinion is wrong though.

I didn't quote the part that was "pro" dubbing since I clearly wrote that my point was that there are some in Europe who don't like dubbing, which clearly meant that there are some that do. My quote was to support my statement of "some." No manipulation or "non-objectiveness" was intended. From a purely objective point of view, my quote supported my argument, nothing more.

Again, to support my assertion that there are some in other countries that don't like dubbing any more than some of us:
http://www.animeboard.at/index.php?s...ic=12948&st=20

Translated:
I have unfortunately not many compared possibilities which is dubbed in German compared to Japan is concerned. D:

But mostly I like the Japanese synchro simply better. For example, I randomly times a bit from the German by Synchro Peacemaker Kurogane and Fullmetal Alchemist seen (or heard).
Woah. No. Who is looking for votes, please? And why are the people in FMA so unfeeling?. I kommts so incidentally, as if there were in Germany only one dubbing studio. (Or are there really only one? I do not know.)

And then...
I look only subs, I have until now still not a good synchro found, neither the language nor the emotional well synchronstimmen .. (English or German ..) the company is competent on the road someone offers 10 euro and asks whether he wants to synchronize a film, he says, it will be the animesynchron stiommen. :lol:. natürlcih you can for 10 euro from any dahergelaufen synchronsprecher not expect much;)

http://www.animeboard.at/index.php?s...ic=12948&st=60
Is all the same to me because the series with Sub `s will anyway regard. Because the Japanese are correct are good simply too psycko around on German to synchronize.

I don't agree with this reasoning at all.

For example, take anime, like Spirited Away, for example. Spirited Away, like most anime, was fully animated first, and then the original language track was recorded to sync with the animation. This is the exact same post-sync method that any "dub" has to go through, so the original track and dubs are on equal footing in the case.

With Spirited Away, I actually watched the dubbed version in theaters, because I wasn't going to let the fact that it was dubbed keep me from enjoying it in a movie theater. I had already seen the film on Japanese R2 DVD. In comparison, the English dub for the film is very, very well done. It wasn't distractingly bad like the dub of Princess Mononoke can be. With Spirited Away, I'd be hard pressed to determine which track is subjectively "better" according to my own judgment. However, I'll still more than likely watch the original Japanese track.

Something similar happened with Cowboy Beebop. A friend of mine who's a big anime fan, learned Japanese in college, and actually went on to live Japan for a few years mentioned when the Cowboy Beebop movie came out that he preferred the English dubbing of the series to the Japanese. That may be, but I had already watched the entire series in Japanese without once giving the English dub a listen, and listened the the movie in Japanese as well. By that point, I was so used to the characters voices in Japanese that I would've rated the English track poorly simply because the voices wouldn't match what I though they should sound like.

However, my preference is not because I automatically view dubs as "inferior," but different from what the director originally intended for the film. Subtitles themselves are a compromise on this vision, but it's one that's, too me, less intrusive on the original work.

As for whether dubbing will always be "fake, unauthentic and contrived," it's important to remember that pretty much every film has some degree of dubbing in it, via ADR. The amount of ADR in a film can vary, from 10%-90% to sometimes being the full film. However, the majority of us usually cannot separate out the "fake" ADR from the production dialogue in a film. Of course, ADR usually has the benefit of the original actors voicing the exact same dialogue, while being supervised by the director, but it's still dubbing.

http://filmsound.org/QA/ADR-Discussion.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dubbing..._.2F_post-sync

Except that two of the three will always be worse than it's original state. A dub has the potential to best it's original track. That is a key difference.

Read what I said the first time I wrote about that. You'll find your answer there.

I did?

Here's the entire statement you made along with what you quoted from me:


Quote you quoted from me:

And if you were to talk to them about the movie, they would talk about it as strongly as anyone who saw the Korean version with English subtitles and enjoyed it that way.

What you followed with:

That's an unprovable statement. There very well be someone who enjoyed it even better than they did, and they may have enjoyed it even better had they watched it subtitled the first time through. There's no way to know for certain.

What I quoted:

That's an unprovable statement. There very well be someone who enjoyed it even better than they did, and they may have enjoyed it even better had they watched it subtitled the first time through. There's no way to know for certain.



So what part am I missing?

So no, you have not stated why I made an unprovable statement. You are simply telling me I have made one because it seems you cannot fathom how anyone who does not have anything mentally wrong with them can enjoy a dub. Apparently to you, dubs are only for stupid people. So if you show a dub, only a stupid person would like it. And if I claim that the people I showed it to were not stupid, then how can they like it?

Your entire point of view is insulting.

Yes I did answer it and I repeat the same to you; What would it serve to you? Answer: Nothing. Your entire replies to me are laced with this agenda of trying to either find a hole in my opinion or just saying that there is one.

What's amazing to me though is how incredibly black and white you are about this issue. Since you believe all dubs are worthless you didn't ask a more productive question about what I said. Why not ask me what was it that I liked or disliked about the Old Boy dub? Since I said it's not better, you ignored it and persist with this agenda of proof that will be what my whole argument is hinged upon to you which is actually worthless to you because you believe all dubs are all bad without even hearing them. So what will I get for telling you any dubs I think are better than the original track? You taking a paragraph and making 16 separate quotes on it that I am supposed to respond to each one? Spare me.

I don't understand the purpose of this comment in reply to what you quoted.

It's like you think you are catching me with my pants down on something.

There are voice actors in those dubs. There are writers who wrote the script to those dubs. There are directors who directed those dubs. Those are what you are listening to. Like any work that tells a narrative and a story, those are what makes or breaks it. Therefore, like anything that involves writers, directors, and actors, there are those that are well made and those that are not.

Now why doesn't this fact surprise me? So then if you haven't even listened to the majority of the dubs made available to you, why are you even having this discussion with me? As I said before, you replies are tinged with agenda rather than a civil discussion based from experience or even one where you are curious about where I am coming from.

The hell? What is this? Am I under interrogation? Do you want the history of the websites and who created them? Do you want me to also provide the dates and times I visited these websites? Do you want the people's email address and locations? Are you going to cross examine them afterwards?

Get real.

No, the ones I speak of are not in English. The forums and websites are all different ones and what I speak of is the general impression I got compared to the one I get from reading English language DVD websites.

Is it now? Ok. Let's take your statement "made" in the spirit of my previous statement:
There are those that do not like black bars however and in those cases if it is a film I really do want to show, then having a quality 4:3 version would make everyone's life easier.

Now, for this analogy to truly work you have to tell me what is a "quality" pan and scan version of a film. Cause I haven't heard of one.

I seem to acknowledge that there are European reviewers who don't like dubs??

Huh?

Excuse me. Do you think that just because I said I don't have a problem with dubs on principle then that must mean I think in the most simplistic terms of black and white as you do? I already said I watch and have watched tons of foreign films, have no problem with subtitles, have seen good and bad dubs, etc... but yet you find it some sort of revelation that I acknowledge that there are others that don't like dubs?

What kind of a ridiculous realization for you is that considering all that I have talked about prior? You either ignored what I said outright or simply did not read and process what I have stated correctly. Which is ironic coming from someone who is all about the reading of films.

And you're second sentence there is also logically screwed. Who would ever interpret a comment that I said that those reviewers would still review the technical aspects of a dub track, even if they didn't like that track for the purpose of those readers who would potentially be interested in that track, as some sort of evidence of the good merits of a dub?

It's blatantly obvious that whole part was a comment of the poor quality of DVD criticism that exists in the English language DVD review community. So I don't even know what you are on about.

You ask this even though the answer is in the very quote you quoted from me. Ok?

[qoute]Can you give an example of a film with which you've done this?[/quote]

What would it matter to you what film it was? Why not ask me why has it happened in general in the past? And if you would the answer would be to what I just said earlier in this very reply when I answered why I would I like a dub at all. Combined with other factors such as who is in the film in question and then I weigh it with the general mood I'm feeling. No different then going into a restaurant and deciding what to eat from the menu you are giving and just going with your gut if all the choices are good but you need to pick one from now.

Yes, it does mean that the majority of the disdain for dubs that is expressed in DVD reviews is without merit. But you are arguing a straw man here since my reply you quoted had nothing to do with majority opinion vs minority opinion.

A purpose I see that that does nothing except inject a counterargument to an argument that wasn't presented by me.

And again, this random internet surfing and bablefishing random posts is pointless. Who is arguing that everyone at some other place likes all dubs? I didn't even say that about myself. I said that there are good and bad dubs. I also said that compared to their American counterparts European reviewers tend to, even if didn't like the dub they listened to, practice a more professional position by still reviewing the technical aspects of the track just about as much as they would with the original track to serve those that would listen to that track.

No, that's just your subjective prejudice not giving the other forms of alterations a "fair chance." 4:3 alterations need not be P&S, for example. It could be open matte or a reframing of a Super35 image. If all you want is more image, than open-matte is better than the OAR. Even if you're arguing for the best composistion, I know of at least one case where even a staunch WS supporter found the 4:3 version of a film to have the majority of better shots, to his consternation:
http://plum.cream.org/HP/ps.htm
Chris Columbus and his crew persisently (though regrettably, not consistently!) seem to compose the picture for the standard 4:3 proportions of a TV screen, rather than the 2.35:1 scope of the wide cinema screen.... it was a LOT easier to find 4:3 pictures better than the widescreen ones.

Also, there's the plethora of Full-Screen releases. If the FS version is "always worse," than how come so many people seem to prefer it?

With colorization, I know of at least one person on this forum who is a staunch supporter of all colorized versions of films, no matter how subjectively poor others may view them.

You can't argue against 4:3 altering or colorization as always being "worse" than the original anymore than one can say a dub is always worse. Those are subjective determinations and can vary from person to person, and film to film. The argument against altering films doesn't boil down to which is better or worse, but rather, it boils down to which version is correct. The correct way to view a film is the way it was originally presented, in the original aspect ratio, original color, and original soundtrack.

From your original posting on the matter, it appears you cared more about your experiment than your friends' enjoyment of the film. I know that if a friend of mine played me a dub version of a film at his house, I'd probably think he had something against subtitles, but'd be too polite to insist on my preferred version of the film. I may even compliment the dub at the end if it was well done. However, privately, I'd be of the mind that the dub lessened my personal enjoyment of the film.

It's like if you showed them a 4:3 version of the film and then said that they were able to talk strongly about the film after seeing it that way. I'm sure that's possible, and many of us on this forum were probably first exposed to some of our favorite films through 4:3 versions of them. However, that doesn't mean that they enjoyed the film as well as if they had seen it in a less altered form, anymore than any of us would say the 4:3 version of the film is better than or equal to the OAR version.

My bad. I thought I had written more. I apologize for the incorrect accusation.

From your original quote:
It's unprovable because you can't speak definitively about everyone else who's seen the film. To take your statement to an absurd level, you're saying that your friends could talk about the film as strongly as the director can, since the director's seen the film in Korean with English subtitles.

It's also absurd because you're comparing two completely different people's opinions of the film. People's opinions and arguing abilities vary widely from person to person. Also, judging the difference between people's opinions and arguments is subjective. So you can't say with any definitiveness whether your friends actually can talk as strongly as someone else who viewed the film differently. Hell, they may not even be able to talk about the film as strongly as someone who saw the film the exact same way.

Aside from being unprovable, it's also completely unproven. You don't provide any evidence of a side-by-side comparison of one of your friends talking about the film compared to someone else who saw it another way. It's just hyperbole on your part, and doesn't belong in a serious conversation on the subject.

Finally, it's entirely anecdotal. You're focusing on a small group of your friends. If I countered with, "I showed a few of my friends the dub and we all found it laughable bad," that wouldn't support an argument against the dub any better than your example supports and argument for the dub.


Now you're just attributing claims to me that I've never made, a straw man that you can easily knock down. Try keeping to the actual comments I've made, instead of making ones up.

It would serve to answer the question of whether you honestly believe what you are saying. Just give one example of a dub you think is better than the original. I promise I will not criticize the choice at all. I am honestly curious as to what your opinion is, since as I've stated before I believe that a dub that's can be subjectively thought of as better, even by me, is possible.

You seem to be confusing me with another poster. I don't consider all dubs to be "worthless" or even subjectively worse than the original language. I also would only consider you giving an example of a dub you prefer as "proof" that one actually exists. It wouldn't prove the argument at hand one way or the other.

So you give equal weight to a soundtrack with actors other than other than the original actors reading lines other than what was originally written for the film under the supervision of a director other than the original one?

Because, contrary to your assertions, I am curious where you're coming from. I'm also of the opinion that one can be dismissive of dubs on purely ideological merits without being close-minded.

You were the one that brought the other sites you visit into the discussion, since you asserted that evidence from other sites supported your position. Since you brought these other sites up yourself, it is only reasonable to provide info on them for verification.

Your general impression could be wrong, or you could've overlooked evidence to the contrary.

You do realize the desire of "proof" of a quality 4:3 alteration is almost exactly the same as John Sinnott's request for "proof" of a superior dub, the request you refused to fulfill. The mere fact that 4:3 versions are still released means that there are people that prefer those versions to the OAR versions. I also supplied one example in the post above of the first Harry Potter film where through comparison of the two, the 4:3 version often comes out ahead.

No, it's that you acknowledge that Europe, far from being this homogeneous group of people that all like dubs, while English speakers overreact, has people that dislike dubs as well, some even to the extent that English speakers do.

Most reviews I've read comment on the English dub. It's debatable how much information really needs to be related about the dub. Here's a review for the DVD of Jet Li's Fearless:
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/25571/jet-lis-fearless/
Both the original Mandarin language track and the English dub are mixed in 5.1. Everything sounded really good, with a lot of power in the sound effects and music. I did notice, however, that at four or five separate times in the Mandarin track, the sound dropped out for about a second, like a quick pause.
All the technical merits of the dub were covered as extensively as the Mandarin track.

I just wanted to be certain I understood it correctly, that you would listen to the English dub of a French film during your first viewing of the film, even though you know French. How about the inverse: Would you watch the French dub of an English film during your first viewing of the film?

Specifics are more interesting, and more true. You could easily claim a hypothetical "oh, sure, I'd do that," or a vague, I've probably done that in the past," but it's far more satisfying an answer to know which films you've done it to, and for what reasons, since I'm sure the reasons change from film to film.

So what's the mood you feel that makes you decide not to watch a French film in its original language?

Yes it did. Here's the full conversation:
You keep trying to assert that disdain for dubs is largely an English speaking phenomenon, and as such, is without merit. I don't agree with either of those assertions.

So you agree that dislike for dubs exists in all cultures and languages?

You:
My examples showed that dislike of dubs exists on other language forums and websites, with at least one person saying that they never listen to a dub, with another labeling all dubs as bad. It seems the "absurd level of hate" exists in other languages as well, contrary to your claim.