Nosferatu : The Ultimate DVD Edition 11/20/2007!
11-21-07, 09:35 PM
#101
Originally Posted by PatrickMcCart
Criterion's lavish 2-disc edition of Pandora's Box has four musical scores and a commentary, plus documentaries. New HD transfer, too. It retails for $25 cheapest. If Kino had the rights, they would have included one score, converted the old PAL transfer, and probably only include text extras. For the same price.
11-21-07, 11:25 PM
#103
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Okay, I just watched the new KINO disc and I thought the picture quality looked fantastic all around. I cannot compare it to the MOC disc, as I don't own that one.
However, that being said, I swear to god that the scene with the Count rising from his coffin onboard the ship is cropped...just like the Image disc I sold off a few weeks ago. WTF?!!!??!?!? Can anybody else please confirm this? If KINO's previous DVD had a properly framed image for this scene, what the hell happened here?
However, that being said, I swear to god that the scene with the Count rising from his coffin onboard the ship is cropped...just like the Image disc I sold off a few weeks ago. WTF?!!!??!?!? Can anybody else please confirm this? If KINO's previous DVD had a properly framed image for this scene, what the hell happened here?
Last edited by KingSausage; 11-21-07 at 11:28 PM.
11-22-07, 08:51 AM
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I can't wait to see it. My copy is en route to me and I won't have it until probably Monday. I'm glad the Kino version has English intertitles. I think they did a great job of duplicating the style of the Gerrman originals (as well as the credits) with METROPOLIS. I'm pleased that my initial concern about the potential ghosting (reference THE CAT AND THE CANARY) is apparently unfounded.
Some additional early reviews of the Kino DVD...
http://digitallyobsessed.com/showreview.php3?ID=9755
http://www.combustiblecelluloid.com/nosferatu.shtml
Some additional early reviews of the Kino DVD...
http://digitallyobsessed.com/showreview.php3?ID=9755
http://www.combustiblecelluloid.com/nosferatu.shtml
11-22-07, 09:22 AM
#108
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Originally Posted by PatrickMcCart
Criterion's lavish 2-disc edition of Pandora's Box has four musical scores and a commentary, plus documentaries. New HD transfer, too. It retails for $25 cheapest. If Kino had the rights, they would have included one score, converted the old PAL transfer, and probably only include text extras. For the same price.
Most "extras" on typical DVDs don't seem to have that much value to me but Criterion's are usually a cut above most studio releases. In this area Eureka seems to offer more for the bang for the buck than anyone (other than Warner Bros maybe). Too bad they don't have NTSC releases.
11-22-07, 12:31 PM
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Finally DVD Beaver comparison
Look that:
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRe.../nosferatu.htm
No edition is fine enough. Interlaced, so have ghosting.
MOC is soft detail. Kino have 2 versions on two discs, with just different subtitles, instead of use DVD technology to add two versions change only the intertitles scenes.
Kino having two versions used strangelly a option of one a little bit sharper than the other. STRANGE......
MOC have bether compression.
Unfortunatelly DVD Beaver forgot the scene of Orlock's head while rising from the coffin, but was available in other comparison from Nosferatu, from the earlier DVD of Kino and Image Entertaimentealises from years ago.
Kino is more cropped on sides than the MOC. This makes me conclude that bthe digital HD finished digital restoration work have a wider frame area than thos bad DVD editions. DVDs always scrow-up those details ...
If I was paranoic I would say it's a conspiration to lend fans to buy all editions!
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film2/DVDRe.../nosferatu.htm
No edition is fine enough. Interlaced, so have ghosting.
MOC is soft detail. Kino have 2 versions on two discs, with just different subtitles, instead of use DVD technology to add two versions change only the intertitles scenes.
Kino having two versions used strangelly a option of one a little bit sharper than the other. STRANGE......
MOC have bether compression.
Unfortunatelly DVD Beaver forgot the scene of Orlock's head while rising from the coffin, but was available in other comparison from Nosferatu, from the earlier DVD of Kino and Image Entertaimentealises from years ago.
Kino is more cropped on sides than the MOC. This makes me conclude that bthe digital HD finished digital restoration work have a wider frame area than thos bad DVD editions. DVDs always scrow-up those details ...
If I was paranoic I would say it's a conspiration to lend fans to buy all editions!
11-22-07, 01:16 PM
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Apparently, there was something amiss with the MoC screencaps Gary posted initially and he's replacing - and adding - to them. Some discussion on what went wrong at the Criterion forum here.
11-22-07, 09:52 PM
#111
Suspended
I got my Kino set in the mail today from Amazon.com and watched it tonight.
The good stuff: The film is longer, with short scenes here and there I have never seen before, not even in the latest Kino. The clean-up job is tremendous and allows to see detail where there wasn't before and rediscover whole scenes in a new light. The tinting/toning is optimal, mostly because the luminosity variance of the film has been corrected for the most part. (Some fluctuations remain.) What little surface artifacts have survived the wet gate process and the electronic removal are very subtle and don't hinder the viewing. The image is very stable and the clean-up job on the original German intertitles is superb. The two versions (English intertitles and German intertitles) are different transfers that are comparable but have slight variants. The picture is the best it's ever been. The speed is 18 fps and the playing time is the same as the PAL version, whatever that means. I didn't find combing or ghosting a problem, although ghosting is present, which raises the eternal question: Why can't they make a measly 18 fps fit into 60 interlaced frames per second without a hitch? The documentary on Murnau's early years leading to Nosferatu and the occult aspects of the film is well-made and interesting.
The misgivings: I am teed-off by one major omission. The film is only very slightly pillarboxed, so little in fact that I had to magnify the image to see evidence of it, which means that it is still horribly overcropped top and bottom. This is evident in the scene where Count Orlock rises from his coffin in the ship. They didn't even try for that one, folks! The top of his head is cut off even in non-overscan mode and the rat at his feet is only visible for two frames. The base of the coffin itself is invisible.
As Alfred Bergman mentioned, this is how it should look (when you combine the top of the older Kino version with the bottom of the old Image version):
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/exu2v5Nqcx0&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/exu2v5Nqcx0&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
Urge to kill... rising... rising...
The Music: It is very nice to hear Hans Erdmann's magnificent original score finally wedded to the film this way but I have grave misgivings. The score has been assembled by Berndt Heller from the two 5-movement suites that were collected from Erdmann's music. The same job had been done 12 years ago by a non-German musicologist named Gillian B. Anderson (see: http://www.victoriasymphony.ca/media...ticleIndex=157 ) who recorded it for BMG and performed it live for many years during projections of the film. This time they gave the job to a German who doesn't give any credit to Anderson and acts as if he discovered everything by himself. The Erdmann themes used are played at a slower tempo and are on the whole less forceful and menacing than the Anderson version. Furthermore, Heller explains in his printed notes that he used non-Erdmann pieces that Erdmann himself appears to have indicated for use. These go from Verdi to Boito to Heller himself (?!) and they even include, during the croquet scene, a piece of music that is simply jarring by its recognizability and upbeat tempo: Bizet's Galop "La Balle" (and not "Le Bal" as written in the end-titles) from his suite "Jeux d'enfants" (and not "Jeu d'enfants" as written in the end-titles) - you might remember from such other-worldly entertainments as the final chase scenes in Felix the Cat silent cartoons. I'm sure another Erdmann piece could have been used, even it had to be repeated, the problem stemming from the fact that only an hour of Erdmann music survives for a 93-minute film. Ms. Anderson had very elegantly solved the problem before by simply repeating the various themes - there are almost 40 to choose from - at the proper occasion, a technique I used myself while synchronizing her score to the Kino disc on my home system, something I did so many times I can swear on a stack of Bibles that the Erdmann music fits the action on the screen frame-by-frame in many scenes where Heller simply decided to use other music out of sheer German pig-headedness and where his selections don't particularly fit the mood.
Another problem with the use of too-familiar music by famous composers is that it takes you out of the film in a way that it didn't back in 1922 when the public performance of any music was considered a rare treat. I will just have to suppose that 1922 German audiences found French composer Bizet's music exotic, if the trouble the production team still has in spelling the names of his compositions even today is any indication.
To add insult to injury, the final "redemption" scene is to the tune of a stock composition by Giuseppe Becce (the man who assembled the Erdmann suites in the 1920's), which is itself based on Nocturne op. 15 by Chopin, as mentioned in the liner notes, although only Becce - and not Chopin - is credited in the end-titles. Chopin being Public Domain, of course. I am miffed!
The good stuff: The film is longer, with short scenes here and there I have never seen before, not even in the latest Kino. The clean-up job is tremendous and allows to see detail where there wasn't before and rediscover whole scenes in a new light. The tinting/toning is optimal, mostly because the luminosity variance of the film has been corrected for the most part. (Some fluctuations remain.) What little surface artifacts have survived the wet gate process and the electronic removal are very subtle and don't hinder the viewing. The image is very stable and the clean-up job on the original German intertitles is superb. The two versions (English intertitles and German intertitles) are different transfers that are comparable but have slight variants. The picture is the best it's ever been. The speed is 18 fps and the playing time is the same as the PAL version, whatever that means. I didn't find combing or ghosting a problem, although ghosting is present, which raises the eternal question: Why can't they make a measly 18 fps fit into 60 interlaced frames per second without a hitch? The documentary on Murnau's early years leading to Nosferatu and the occult aspects of the film is well-made and interesting.
The misgivings: I am teed-off by one major omission. The film is only very slightly pillarboxed, so little in fact that I had to magnify the image to see evidence of it, which means that it is still horribly overcropped top and bottom. This is evident in the scene where Count Orlock rises from his coffin in the ship. They didn't even try for that one, folks! The top of his head is cut off even in non-overscan mode and the rat at his feet is only visible for two frames. The base of the coffin itself is invisible.
As Alfred Bergman mentioned, this is how it should look (when you combine the top of the older Kino version with the bottom of the old Image version):
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/exu2v5Nqcx0&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/exu2v5Nqcx0&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
Urge to kill... rising... rising...
The Music: It is very nice to hear Hans Erdmann's magnificent original score finally wedded to the film this way but I have grave misgivings. The score has been assembled by Berndt Heller from the two 5-movement suites that were collected from Erdmann's music. The same job had been done 12 years ago by a non-German musicologist named Gillian B. Anderson (see: http://www.victoriasymphony.ca/media...ticleIndex=157 ) who recorded it for BMG and performed it live for many years during projections of the film. This time they gave the job to a German who doesn't give any credit to Anderson and acts as if he discovered everything by himself. The Erdmann themes used are played at a slower tempo and are on the whole less forceful and menacing than the Anderson version. Furthermore, Heller explains in his printed notes that he used non-Erdmann pieces that Erdmann himself appears to have indicated for use. These go from Verdi to Boito to Heller himself (?!) and they even include, during the croquet scene, a piece of music that is simply jarring by its recognizability and upbeat tempo: Bizet's Galop "La Balle" (and not "Le Bal" as written in the end-titles) from his suite "Jeux d'enfants" (and not "Jeu d'enfants" as written in the end-titles) - you might remember from such other-worldly entertainments as the final chase scenes in Felix the Cat silent cartoons. I'm sure another Erdmann piece could have been used, even it had to be repeated, the problem stemming from the fact that only an hour of Erdmann music survives for a 93-minute film. Ms. Anderson had very elegantly solved the problem before by simply repeating the various themes - there are almost 40 to choose from - at the proper occasion, a technique I used myself while synchronizing her score to the Kino disc on my home system, something I did so many times I can swear on a stack of Bibles that the Erdmann music fits the action on the screen frame-by-frame in many scenes where Heller simply decided to use other music out of sheer German pig-headedness and where his selections don't particularly fit the mood.
Another problem with the use of too-familiar music by famous composers is that it takes you out of the film in a way that it didn't back in 1922 when the public performance of any music was considered a rare treat. I will just have to suppose that 1922 German audiences found French composer Bizet's music exotic, if the trouble the production team still has in spelling the names of his compositions even today is any indication.
To add insult to injury, the final "redemption" scene is to the tune of a stock composition by Giuseppe Becce (the man who assembled the Erdmann suites in the 1920's), which is itself based on Nocturne op. 15 by Chopin, as mentioned in the liner notes, although only Becce - and not Chopin - is credited in the end-titles. Chopin being Public Domain, of course. I am miffed!
Last edited by baracine; 11-23-07 at 12:36 PM.
11-22-07, 10:11 PM
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Hi Baracine
I remamber about the Kino edition have just some few footage changes, when none of the footage sources was complete in single prints, having to mixture different footages to complete the scene, and the image quality jump was severe.
As example I remamber about the scene on begining, when Helen is removing the cat from the window (Kino DVD), and shew the the camera is showing the wall with some drawings texture, que image subt turns very blurred until the end of the scene.
May I ask if those jumps in image quality are still present on the new Kino DVD?
And what about the few out of focus frames (sporadic like missing frames), in the scene firstly show the Oelock's carriage, from earlie Kino DVD. Are those focus jumps preent in this digital reatored version too?
What are the new scenes present now that wasn't even in the anterior Kino DVD from Bologna restoration? The Bologna restoration in earlier DVDs was presumed to present the complete film. New scenes founded?? How is the image quality for those "new found" scenes?
I remamber about the Kino edition have just some few footage changes, when none of the footage sources was complete in single prints, having to mixture different footages to complete the scene, and the image quality jump was severe.
As example I remamber about the scene on begining, when Helen is removing the cat from the window (Kino DVD), and shew the the camera is showing the wall with some drawings texture, que image subt turns very blurred until the end of the scene.
May I ask if those jumps in image quality are still present on the new Kino DVD?
And what about the few out of focus frames (sporadic like missing frames), in the scene firstly show the Oelock's carriage, from earlie Kino DVD. Are those focus jumps preent in this digital reatored version too?
What are the new scenes present now that wasn't even in the anterior Kino DVD from Bologna restoration? The Bologna restoration in earlier DVDs was presumed to present the complete film. New scenes founded?? How is the image quality for those "new found" scenes?
11-22-07, 10:27 PM
#113
Suspended
Originally Posted by Alfred Bergman
Hi Baracine
I remamber about the Kino edition have just some few footage changes, when none of the footage sources was complete in single prints, having to mixture different footages to complete the scene, and the image quality jump was severe.
As example I remamber about the scene on begining, when Helen is removing the cat from the window (Kino DVD), and shew the the camera is showing the wall with some drawings texture, que image subt turns very blurred until the end of the scene.
May I ask if those jumps in image quality are still present on the new Kino DVD?
And what about the few out of focus frames (sporadic like missing frames), in the scene firstly show the Oelock's carriage, from earlie Kino DVD. Are those focus jumps preent in this digital reatored version too?
What are the new scenes present now that wasn't even in the anterior Kino DVD from Bologna restoration? The Bologna restoration in earlier DVDs was presumed to present the complete film. New scenes founded?? How is the image quality for those "new found" scenes?
I remamber about the Kino edition have just some few footage changes, when none of the footage sources was complete in single prints, having to mixture different footages to complete the scene, and the image quality jump was severe.
As example I remamber about the scene on begining, when Helen is removing the cat from the window (Kino DVD), and shew the the camera is showing the wall with some drawings texture, que image subt turns very blurred until the end of the scene.
May I ask if those jumps in image quality are still present on the new Kino DVD?
And what about the few out of focus frames (sporadic like missing frames), in the scene firstly show the Oelock's carriage, from earlie Kino DVD. Are those focus jumps preent in this digital reatored version too?
What are the new scenes present now that wasn't even in the anterior Kino DVD from Bologna restoration? The Bologna restoration in earlier DVDs was presumed to present the complete film. New scenes founded?? How is the image quality for those "new found" scenes?
Helen at the window with the cat is fine.
The scene where Hutter arrives in the frame where Orlock's carriage is about to appear has always looked like it was from a different print. There is variance in contrast and maybe focus, probably because the arrival of the carriage was filmed a little later and Hutter had to stand there for the longest time.
Last edited by baracine; 11-23-07 at 07:09 AM.
11-23-07, 12:51 PM
#114
Suspended
This is a 10-min excerpt from the out-of-print British Film Institute DVD with contemporary music by horror-film specialist James Bernard (The Horror of Dracula and many other Hammer films). It's interesting for two reasons.
It shows how the Orlock-rising-from-his-coffin scene should be framed and it shows that Bernard interpreted the croquet scene not as a distinct frivolous scene but as part of the drama of Helen waiting for word from Hutter, as did Gillian B. Anderson in her reconstruction of the Erdmann score:
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/I9WlCLGNPqw&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/I9WlCLGNPqw&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
It shows how the Orlock-rising-from-his-coffin scene should be framed and it shows that Bernard interpreted the croquet scene not as a distinct frivolous scene but as part of the drama of Helen waiting for word from Hutter, as did Gillian B. Anderson in her reconstruction of the Erdmann score:
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/I9WlCLGNPqw&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/I9WlCLGNPqw&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>
Last edited by baracine; 11-23-07 at 12:53 PM.
11-23-07, 01:01 PM
#115
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If the Nosferatu HD restoration it's really so good, even the bad scenes from earlier DVD looking fine now., I think Baracine will sugest to Barry Sandrew (Legend Films) to do a color version
Ok, you can chouse one image from this new restoration, the one you prefer, and I will colorize and post here. :-)
DVD Beaver should compare the new Kino to the old kino, in this link: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcom...vs%20Kino.html
Here some comparison I tried with similar captures from both comparisons. The Knock caputre is diferent. Maybe you can capture the new Kino proper image to compare.
Old Kino used lot of sharpness filter, many times getting artificial look, but in the knock scene show lot's of details.
MK2 have more of the top head of Orlock than the new Kino, but less than the old Kino (brightness increased to bether visualize just in this capture):
Is the samll rat so important, in the bottom of the frame??? I guess yes! Cause it remamber pertilence of Orlock.
MK2 seens, at least for this scene, the one with wider frame area.
Kino Old and new:
By betodarce at 2007-11-23
At least this capture show a fine moment in Kino new edition:
By betodarce at 2007-11-23
I found the MOC edition have less boosting in darks. Since I can enhance the images to recover dark tone detials in shadow in the MOC capture, but not in the Kino capture. In Kino the details that was suposed to appears rise just as pure black portions on frame.
Important Considerations:
The major print used for the restoration was a excellent photographic image quality first generation print, as described in a article about the Bologna restoration. So it must have a great dynamic range with all details in dark an bright portions. But it's adjusted to have a dark shadows and few washed out highlighs to get the feeling of a silent German Expressionist film exibition(that use shadow a lot), and also to help match the other few footage sources used to reconstruct the movie, since the other sources despite well wasn't that great in photographic image quality as this fist generation print.
Here a screen capture from the restoration demonstration. See how the image is just a bit cropped in each of the 3 stages of restoration.
1- Image tranfers (bottom left) close to full frame aperture.
2- Image stabilization and digital clean Up (bottom right) just a feq cropping
3- Final tinting simulation. Image got darker and the frame edges was cropped to remove the few round edeges.
Baracine, since you have the DVD, maybe would like to get a screen capture from this scene of the restoration documentary, and a capture from the Kino tranfer of the film itself, to compare the frame area of the documentary with the Kino overscan.
I bet the Kino will show less frame area than the tinted image (stage 3) from the documentary comaprison explanation.
I almost forgot. The expanation for cropping. This image shows how just the removing the the rounded edeges of the original full frame appeture can crop a image. I would like to see the film transfered to DVD even with the rounded edges. TV overscan would cut it anyways; so why not ???
Here I cropped the image just to try to remove the rounded edges and it got like that.
By BetoDarce
Ok, you can chouse one image from this new restoration, the one you prefer, and I will colorize and post here. :-)
DVD Beaver should compare the new Kino to the old kino, in this link: http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/dvdcom...vs%20Kino.html
Here some comparison I tried with similar captures from both comparisons. The Knock caputre is diferent. Maybe you can capture the new Kino proper image to compare.
Old Kino used lot of sharpness filter, many times getting artificial look, but in the knock scene show lot's of details.
MK2 have more of the top head of Orlock than the new Kino, but less than the old Kino (brightness increased to bether visualize just in this capture):
Is the samll rat so important, in the bottom of the frame??? I guess yes! Cause it remamber pertilence of Orlock.
MK2 seens, at least for this scene, the one with wider frame area.
Kino Old and new:
By betodarce at 2007-11-23
At least this capture show a fine moment in Kino new edition:
By betodarce at 2007-11-23
I found the MOC edition have less boosting in darks. Since I can enhance the images to recover dark tone detials in shadow in the MOC capture, but not in the Kino capture. In Kino the details that was suposed to appears rise just as pure black portions on frame.
Important Considerations:
The major print used for the restoration was a excellent photographic image quality first generation print, as described in a article about the Bologna restoration. So it must have a great dynamic range with all details in dark an bright portions. But it's adjusted to have a dark shadows and few washed out highlighs to get the feeling of a silent German Expressionist film exibition(that use shadow a lot), and also to help match the other few footage sources used to reconstruct the movie, since the other sources despite well wasn't that great in photographic image quality as this fist generation print.
Here a screen capture from the restoration demonstration. See how the image is just a bit cropped in each of the 3 stages of restoration.
1- Image tranfers (bottom left) close to full frame aperture.
2- Image stabilization and digital clean Up (bottom right) just a feq cropping
3- Final tinting simulation. Image got darker and the frame edges was cropped to remove the few round edeges.
Baracine, since you have the DVD, maybe would like to get a screen capture from this scene of the restoration documentary, and a capture from the Kino tranfer of the film itself, to compare the frame area of the documentary with the Kino overscan.
I bet the Kino will show less frame area than the tinted image (stage 3) from the documentary comaprison explanation.
I almost forgot. The expanation for cropping. This image shows how just the removing the the rounded edeges of the original full frame appeture can crop a image. I would like to see the film transfered to DVD even with the rounded edges. TV overscan would cut it anyways; so why not ???
Here I cropped the image just to try to remove the rounded edges and it got like that.
By BetoDarce
11-24-07, 10:32 AM
#117
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by PopcornTreeCt
So, after checking out DVD Beaver I may have to take back my criticism of Kino. The image quality looks far superior to the MoC version. I think Kino may get my money on this one.
11-26-07, 07:57 PM
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Sharpness would be quite bether.
Many people had talk about the sharpness issue.
The major print found was a great quality original print stroked from the original camera negative. Back then films was copied only by phisical contact, which ensure a good sharpness for a first generation print.
So, where is the grain????????? Images are formed of grain particles emulsion!
If original camera negatives from early 30's had some few grain, a first generation print from 20's should have a grain pattern.
I think the soft image it's for hidden the grain. Perhaps it's a decision from restoration team, since they didn't want to get noticiable quality change along the film, reconstructed also with few inferior quality footage for censured or reedited scenes.
Everyone expect some few image quality variance in a restoration from a silent film. It's normal perfectly wait for this !!!!
If we take the Metropolis last restoration, even with the great overal quality there are few scenes with clear inferior image quality, grainer, softer and with few more contrast and we don't bother much about.
But this Nosferatu restoration follow a weird option of try to ride those image quality changes as much as possible. They ended up goping too far.
I refuse to call it anyway as a definitive restoration. No way... They should try again and make it right next time.
The major print found was a great quality original print stroked from the original camera negative. Back then films was copied only by phisical contact, which ensure a good sharpness for a first generation print.
So, where is the grain????????? Images are formed of grain particles emulsion!
If original camera negatives from early 30's had some few grain, a first generation print from 20's should have a grain pattern.
I think the soft image it's for hidden the grain. Perhaps it's a decision from restoration team, since they didn't want to get noticiable quality change along the film, reconstructed also with few inferior quality footage for censured or reedited scenes.
Everyone expect some few image quality variance in a restoration from a silent film. It's normal perfectly wait for this !!!!
If we take the Metropolis last restoration, even with the great overal quality there are few scenes with clear inferior image quality, grainer, softer and with few more contrast and we don't bother much about.
But this Nosferatu restoration follow a weird option of try to ride those image quality changes as much as possible. They ended up goping too far.
I refuse to call it anyway as a definitive restoration. No way... They should try again and make it right next time.
11-27-07, 10:40 AM
#120
Suspended
Originally Posted by Alfred Bergman
So, where is the grain????????? Images are formed of grain particles emulsion!
I believe the underlying new digitally-restored film could be the basis for another really ultimate edition. Mainly, one with proper framing (pillarboxed, please!), even showing the rounded edges, and one that really features Hans Erdmann's score.
The more I listen to this new edition, the more I realize Berndt Heller is really a Johnny-come-lately who didn't do half the job Gillian B. Anderson had done 12 years ago in reconstructing this score.
- He doesn't use all the themes that were available to him.
- He keeps coming back to the same old themes that have nothing to do with the action on screen.
- He complements Erdmann's beautiful score with other pieces that really dilute the experience.
Result:
Most of the scary scenes of the film are now made harmless. Count Orlok's first attack on his guest looks and sounds like a quiet tea party. Hutter's discovering Orlok's coffin is anticlimactic, whereas Erdmann's music, as used by Anderson, is really terrifying.
Worst of all, Heller has totally resisted doing what Gillian B. Anderson did so well, which is to link the different cues together so that they form complete movements from some Romantic symphony - the film is subtitled "a symphony of horrors", after all - the most spectacular of which are the "Ellen in a trance telepathically preventing Orlock from attacking Hutter a second time" scene and the "Hutter goes home/Orlok kills off the sailors on the ship" scene, which are easily comparable in effect and power to the "approaching storm" scene from Bram Stoker's Dracula (music by Wojciech Kilar).
So I've actually gone back to synchronizing my Gillian Anderson recording of the Erdmann score to this new DVD, which is made even more difficult than usual by the greater number of intertitles staying on screen longer and disrupting the cues.
Last edited by baracine; 11-27-07 at 12:40 PM.
11-27-07, 10:44 PM
#121
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Originally Posted by baracine
Just my personal preference but I can live without the grain. Its easily removable in the digital domain and its removal improves the viewing experience in my opinion.
I believe the underlying new digitally-restored film could be the basis for another really ultimate edition. Mainly, one with proper framing (pillarboxed, please!), even showing the rounded edges, and one that really features Hans Erdmann's score.
I believe the underlying new digitally-restored film could be the basis for another really ultimate edition. Mainly, one with proper framing (pillarboxed, please!), even showing the rounded edges, and one that really features Hans Erdmann's score.
I want image details :-)
About the score, I wish you could make a video for youtube, editing a scenes with one two versions of the score recorded by each musician.
If the intertitles are too long for you, and I think they are too long for everyboby who is literate, way not reduce the intertitle duration to fit your own adaptation.
Famousilent films has this often problem. Everyone had different preferences about the dozen scores realized in different editions.
Or perhaps it's all a huge conspiration to len in countless DVD ediutions to take the money of fans who will buy all those editions :-)
A futher edition in 2009 with the Score of Gillian, a 2010 edition in HD and Blue Ray with full frame etc...
11-28-07, 08:58 AM
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My disc FINALLY arrived yesterday...
Only had a chance to watch about 20 minutes or so into the film but I think it looks absolutely amazing. Its one of the best restoration efforts I've seen on a silent, right there with THE MATINEE IDOL and THE JAZZ SINGER. BIG thumbs up to Kino for a fine disc.
There have been those opposed to such digital tweaking; I seem to remember DVD SAVANT commenting in a review once he was glad such digital manipulation was kept to a minimum...but I would love to see ALL silents get such a workover. To see them as close to they must have looked in their time makes them seem more relevent to us today. Mis-timed, worn and scratched prints just make them appear primitive to modern audiences. Its too bad the expense of such undertakings are probably unrealistic and impractical. All but a few have seen this kind of restoration and most are in need of it.
I'm interested in Baracine's comments on the previous reconstruction of the soundtrack....enough to seek out the CD. Why did you do this to me?
Only had a chance to watch about 20 minutes or so into the film but I think it looks absolutely amazing. Its one of the best restoration efforts I've seen on a silent, right there with THE MATINEE IDOL and THE JAZZ SINGER. BIG thumbs up to Kino for a fine disc.
There have been those opposed to such digital tweaking; I seem to remember DVD SAVANT commenting in a review once he was glad such digital manipulation was kept to a minimum...but I would love to see ALL silents get such a workover. To see them as close to they must have looked in their time makes them seem more relevent to us today. Mis-timed, worn and scratched prints just make them appear primitive to modern audiences. Its too bad the expense of such undertakings are probably unrealistic and impractical. All but a few have seen this kind of restoration and most are in need of it.
I'm interested in Baracine's comments on the previous reconstruction of the soundtrack....enough to seek out the CD. Why did you do this to me?
Last edited by Carcosa; 11-28-07 at 06:32 PM.
12-02-07, 12:19 PM
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Perhaps not even the definitive photochemical resoration
I found there is a german film collectors that's is reported as having the only surviving complete original print of Nosferatu.
I don't know if it's just a history or it's real. Anyway if this complete print have good image quality, (like shot from original camera negative) and the frames missing in the Kino DVD (Bologna restoration) in good quality, perhaps we can wait for another restoration in future.
Original print not always means shot from original camera negative.
From IMDB: "The only complete, original copy is said to be owned by the German Max Schreck collector Jens Geutebrück."
The Bologna reconstruction is reported as complete, despite missing frames, but it's a arrangment of several copies, with most footage based in the very good image quality from the 1922 French version realise.
Wikipedia also said tha same thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Geutebr%C3%BCck
Why this collector keep the film for hinself instead of make preservation master before the print fade to deteriorization???
Maybe he is waiting somone to pay hin $$$$$$$ for the film.
I don't know if it's just a history or it's real. Anyway if this complete print have good image quality, (like shot from original camera negative) and the frames missing in the Kino DVD (Bologna restoration) in good quality, perhaps we can wait for another restoration in future.
Original print not always means shot from original camera negative.
From IMDB: "The only complete, original copy is said to be owned by the German Max Schreck collector Jens Geutebrück."
The Bologna reconstruction is reported as complete, despite missing frames, but it's a arrangment of several copies, with most footage based in the very good image quality from the 1922 French version realise.
Wikipedia also said tha same thing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jens_Geutebr%C3%BCck
Why this collector keep the film for hinself instead of make preservation master before the print fade to deteriorization???
Maybe he is waiting somone to pay hin $$$$$$$ for the film.
12-04-07, 10:11 PM
#124
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Sounds like Alois F. Dettlaff, the collector who tried to wring every last dollar out of his copy of Edison's Frankenstein (1910) but ended up dying alone in his apartment in the summer of 2005 and discovered a month later. Get this, his daughter and her husband lived across the street from him. What a bitter old bastard he must have been.
12-04-07, 11:00 PM
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Originally Posted by caligulathegod
Sounds like Alois F. Dettlaff, the collector who tried to wring every last dollar out of his copy of Edison's Frankenstein (1910) but ended up dying alone in his apartment in the summer of 2005 and discovered a month later. Get this, his daughter and her husband lived across the street from him. What a bitter old bastard he must have been.