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Barry_Sandrew 01-27-07 03:40 PM


Originally Posted by baracine
Alfred/Alberto has e-mailed me this image showing what can be accomplished with the Curves tool in Photoshop to attenuate the contrast in a contrasty image, supposing, of course, that there is underlying information to recover:

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/1...ingcontdl9.jpg

This apparently makes it easier to colourize, with a more natural result, even if the contrast can be upped afterwards.


I think there is a confusion between high band film grain and dynamic range. The image on the right has a much greater dynamic range and detail. However this has little to do with film grain. The image on the right would create a more natural look because there is more of a range in highlights, mid-tones and shadows.

baracine 01-27-07 04:24 PM


Originally Posted by Barry_Sandrew
think there is a confusion between high band film grain and dynamic range. The image on the right has a much greater dynamic range and detail. However this has little to do with film grain.

Bear with me, Barry, I'm carrying on two discussions at once. I posted this picture to illustrate that a greater dynamic range is desirable and attainable, as you and Alfred maintain, for better colourization. But I also wonder if the elimination of film grain can make for a more desirable "glossy" Technicolor-like image.

Alfred Bergman 01-27-07 04:26 PM


Originally Posted by Barry_Sandrew
I think there is a confusion between high band film grain and dynamic range. The image on the right has a much greater dynamic range and detail. However this has little to do with film grain. The image on the right would create a more natural look because there is more of a range in highlights, mid-tones and shadows.


Barry both images came from the same contrasty image source. This High-Res stiil in this page:

http://www.doctormacro.com/Images/Ke...20Grace_13.jpg

I increased a bit of sharpness and trie to find a natural look range of tones.

Sunset Boulevard and Roman Holiday was both restored and enhanced to recover Dynamic Range and sharpness, since the best elements they found was third generation 35mm (copy from copy from copy from Original Camera Negative).

One problem related to enahnce contrast, recovering Dynamic Range, is that the grain particles are larger in areas of shadows. So when we enahnce a dark area to get midle tones we enhance the larger grains. It can happen to brigh areas too, since after copied a few times, coming from negative to positive, the brights became darks, and vice virsa.
So the grain reduction tool needs a lot of precision to work harder in the range of tones that present heavier grain.

In a film print with exposure flicker, there is a variation of those range tones that present heavier grain, noticiable after enhance Dynamic Range, Because when a frame change exposure the area can get darker or brighter. Even if we correct flicker perfectly to apply the Dynamic range correction, we would need a grain filter that use can wise the information about the exposure oscilation (like a oscilation map) alonga frame sequence, since the grain reduction filter needs to know when and how the grain become larger along Dynamic range

I gues this few complication explain why only DTS Digital Images (Former Lowry Digital Images) made sucesful restorations with enhancement to recover Dynamic range.

Barry. If we eliminate the flicker perfectly, could you recover Dynamic range like I did for the Grace Kelly still?


A. Bergman

Alfred Bergman 01-27-07 04:44 PM


Originally Posted by baracine
Bear with me, Barry, I'm carrying on two discussions at once. I posted this picture to illustrate that a greater dynamic range is desirable and attainable, as you and Alfred maintain, for better colourization. But I also wonder if the elimination of film grain can make for a more desirable "glossy" Technicolor-like image.

Technicolor used quite similar film emulsions than B&W films, but required lots of extra light, a really powerfull ilumination system. Indeed technicolor uses black&W films only, but one to each primary color.
Technicolor have grain, but the fact is that technicolor Dye Transfer Printing tends to hide grain due lose of sharpness, strong satured dyes, and the fact are three layers semented togeter.
The Dye tranfer process works by getting the B&W copies and eliminating the silver grains from the emulsion, letting a kind of print in the gelatine (emulsion it's a gelatine with silver grains). The Dyes so covers the gelatine mark, recreating a image, for each strip. The strips so get semented together creating the final technicolr print.
DYE TRANSFER NEVER FADE while eastman film from 70's and 80's are under risk to fade and lose colors.

For othewr side the B&W films (SHOT in B&W) had prints developed to some high contrast, pleasent but not excessive. The high contrast required a fast developer, and a faster developer tends to make aglomeration of grain particles, greating a grainner extruture.

Other reason is that Technicolr was exensive, so they more carefull to produce masters, while many B&W survied only several generation away from camera negative. The alignment achived in 30's and 40's, strip to strip, was not perfect, so the sharpness got loss a bit, and hiding grain so.

Modern technicolor restoration, as Gone With the Wind, used grain reduction, since the restoration process, after recover details by perfect alignment of strips, also recover some grain.

Ohter details I forget is that one strip on technicolor wasn't so sharp like the othe 2. It's because pone was in emulsion to emulsion contact with other strip, so the light that reach it passed through the ticker side of the film base (transparent platic) and through emulsion of the front strip, difusing the light a little bit.

I'm not in favor of a complete grainless film. But it's important ot reduce grain to a certain acceptable level in many casers.

A. Bergman

baracine 01-27-07 05:38 PM

About grain and lowering the contrast of older films...
 
About this issue (restoring dynamic range to low-generation film elements), I have just read this very negative review by Robert Seletsky on dvdbeaver (http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/articl...a_misfires.htm) of the Dracula 75th Anniversary Edition, which, according to the reviewer, is defective on many points. Among them: bad sound and the unwillingness to accomodate the original 1.19:1 aspect ratio with pillarboxing (like Criterion does) so that the resulting image is not only severely cropped but, at times, reframed and zoomed. But the worst offense seems to be what has been done to make the image "brighter". Graininess seems to be also accentuated when this happens:

(Italics are mine.)


Universal’s triple-dip Dracula--the new 2-DVD “75th Anniversary Edition”--is the studio’s reply to fans who had complained that the earlier transfer was too dark (1999 “Classic Monsters” edition, re-issued in the “Legacy Collection” of 2004). However, it is a very unsatisfactory reply. Some background: the original negative of Dracula was over-printed in the 1940s and disintegrated, so all we have are the prints themselves. They do not look very good on the whole, and short of finding a duplicate negative, no real restoration is ever going to be possible. That didn’t deter Universal from using a print as mediocre as the previous ones and raising the brightness level--and the sharpness to a lesser extent--for their “75th Anniversary Edition.” The result is a glary, edgy picture in which the already high level of grain and serious print damage are so accentuated that the film is nearly unwatchable. Universal’s overly cautious anti-analog/anti-digital copy-protection makes matters worse: if one needs to play the signal through a VCR into a TV--and the VCR permits it, the glare, incessant grain, and damage become even more unbearable. Playing this Dracula directly into a monitor via component inputs yields results almost as unacceptable. Universal’s changes make it possible to see all the background details, but only because everything looks fluorescently lit; true focus is actually diminished amidst the glare and exaggerated print problems. A film which, more than almost any other, is about night and shadows, now has scant evidence of either, the added artificial brightness lending every detail equal weight and depriving the film of visual dimensionality. Most black levels are now more often gray, and whites can be overpowering; the effect is one of badly faded, deteriorated film stock. This was not the film-makers’ intent. One of the first remarks in the film, spoken fearfully as the carriage speeds toward the village near the end of the day, “we must reach the inn before sundown,” is now rendered ludicrous because it looks like noon in the desert. Dracula’s subterranean crypt now has a bright light source as does the carriage rendezvous at midnight; such brightened dark shots are especially undermined by the unremitting prominence of grain and damage artifacts.

(...)

Unfortunately, the sound elements used here are the worst I have ever encountered--even compared with the most degraded TV prints: all dialogue is muffled, weak, and has a thick layer of buzzing distortion, many lines completely unintelligible; even viewers with normal hearing will need the English subtitles. Earlier DVDs had better sound (particularly the 1999 disc), and it is puzzling that Universal would judge the current sound elements to be acceptable. The primitive sound for Dracula was never good, and viewers have commented correctly that the audio in the 2004 “Legacy Collection” release was much inferior to the initial 1999 release. The sound in the current offering is similar to the 2004 edition but more intensely distorted. Why Universal didn’t reuse the far preferable sound track from the 1999 DVD for both later releases, simply reinstating the few erased notes at the end of the theatre scene, is a mystery.

(...)

Universal has always been, and is still, confounded by the squarer 1.19:1 aspect ratio of early 1930s talkies. Criterion, on the other hand, dealt with the squarer frame elegantly in their 2004 restoration of Fritz Lang’s M--also a 1931 film, preserving the original shape and the visual information by shrinking the image very slightly and pillarboxing it (the R2 Eureka transfer is similar, perhaps even more successful). Until recently, Universal would simply enlarge the 1.19:1 picture to later Academy standard 1.33:1 (really 1.37:1) and crop the edges severely. While that was already a poor solution, their current practices are more damaging and interventionist: shots are actually reframed, zoomed, and cropped to differing sizes at the discretion of the telecine engineer (usually losing more information than previously, owing to a preference for larger images)--in essence, making a pan-and-scan version of a non-widescreen film. The frame is occasionally shrunk as well as reframed to keep its contents intelligible: e.g., the newspaper clipping in Dracula, like the one in The Invisible Ray of “The Bela Lugosi Collection.” While a simple zoomed and cropped image already compromised the original appearance, the creation of continual new image sizes and placements is nearly a refilming: this Dracula goes farther than before in distorting the visual compositions of great cinematographer Karl Freund by inventing new relationships among shots.
http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/articl...20cryptold.jpg
Darker 1999 release

http://www.dvdbeaver.com/film/articl...20cryptnew.jpg
Brighter 2006 release

The Valeyard 01-28-07 05:23 AM

Barry,

Any hints as to what's going to be on your upcoming Little Rascals set?

http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/...V46340148_.jpg

Barry_Sandrew 01-28-07 08:50 AM


Originally Posted by The Valeyard
Barry,

Any hints as to what's going to be on your upcoming Little Rascals set?

http://ec2.images-amazon.com/images/...V46340148_.jpg


The cover art sums up the contents of the three set. They honestly never looked better, both in color and in black and white. Lots more great stuff coming out of Legend Films over the next 6 months.

baracine 01-28-07 10:07 AM

Alfred/Alberto colourized the lower-contrast image on the right. The one on the left was colourized by another person from a high-contrast black and white image:

http://img265.imageshack.us/img265/6...rastcommz9.jpg

Alfred Bergman 01-28-07 10:16 AM

[QUOTE=baracine]Alfred/Alberto colourized the lower-contrast image on the right. The one on the left was colourized by another person from a high-contrast black and white image:

Actually I just overlayed the color spectrun, from the hign contrast colorization, over the lowered contrast B&W image. A color transplant, with just a bit minoradjust on hair color to fit less garish.

IF I would colorize really I would get lot bether :-)
But the first colorization wasn't mine, so I just made a "color transplant" for comparison purposes to demonstrate the iumportance of Dynamic Range in colorization.

baracine 01-29-07 03:00 PM

Alfred/Alberto has yet improved on perfection by applying his own colours to the preceding low contrast Grace Kelly image and then playing with contrast (right):

http://img249.imageshack.us/img249/3...stbeutiug5.jpg

Great work, Alfred! I'll take your word that Grace Kelly's eyes were blue and not green?

The Valeyard 01-29-07 04:42 PM

No offense, guys but...could we keep this DVD-related?

Alfred Bergman 01-29-07 06:17 PM


Originally Posted by The Valeyard
No offense, guys but...could we keep this DVD-related?

Sure. But we need more information to coment and opine about. What year of production et...

Alfred Bergman 01-29-07 06:49 PM

[QUOTE=baracine]Alfred/Alberto has yet improved on perfection by applying his own colours to the preceding low contrast Grace Kelly image and then playing with contrast (right):
Great work, Alfred! I'll take your word that Grace Kelly's eyes were blue and not green?

In many old photos, original shot in color, it's green, while in others it's blue/green and in others blue. I think it's due old color film balance, aging of photo, fading of dyes et. Blue dyes are the first to fade.
I think it was faint blue, since most color photos from 70's and ealry 80's show cleary it, and some well conserved from earlier times.

Anyway I choosed a bit stronger blue to look very nice.
Not just the color, blut the design, texture, of her iris was wonderful.

Little Rascals, and Sherlock Holmes episodes in public domain, was colorized earlier in 80's or early 90's by American Film Technologies, from Barry Sandrew. Also Miracle on 34Th Street, that was recolorized in 2006.

Would be nice if Barry could post some images comparing the diference from the old and modern colorization for those titles.

baracine 01-30-07 09:41 AM

Speaking of films, I found this very interesting online document on the history of the Technicolor process, from 1993, called "The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs: Traditional and Digital Color Prints, Color Negatives, Slides, and Motion Pictures" by Henry Wilhelm with contributing author Carol Brower
Chapter 10 of this document can be found at http://www.wilhelm-research.com/pdf/..._HiRes_v1a.pdf . Its complete Table of contents is to be found here: http://www.wilhelm-research.com/book_toc.html .

http://www.wilhelm-research.com/images/wir_book_110.jpg

Here is an excerpt from Chapter 10:


"Colorization" is a computerized video process whereby artsits add color on a frame-by-frame basis to a videotape transfer of a black-and-white film. Based on intuition, and perhaps a bit of historical research, the artists decide what colors are appropriate for the background, props, actors' and actresses' clothes, hair, eyes, skin, etc. The resulting "color" videotape is used for television and videocassette release, with the original black-and-white film sent unharmed to the film vault. It is likely that except for a few of the classics such as Casablanca, black-and-white video versions of colorized films generally will cease to be available.
(The author was speaking of the MGM/Turner film library of 3,300 feature films.)

Alfred Bergman 01-30-07 11:12 AM

[QUOTE=baracine]Speaking of films, I found this very interesting online document on the history of the Technicolor process, from 1993, called "The Permanence and Care of Color Photographs: Traditional and Digital Color Prints, Color Negatives, Slides, and Motion Pictures" by Henry Wilhelm with contributing author Carol Brower


The document sayd Wlat Diney vaults for original nitrate camera negatives wasn' refrigerated. Strange...

It's highly important that the valust got refrigeration to retard decomposition. At least all nitrate was trasfered to acetate safity material. Acetate also decompose if not well archived in proper climatic conditions. Nitrate it's flamable.
Some nitrate films are more than 100years old, while some acetates from 70's and even early 80's are decomposing. Climatic conditions, how the film was developed, how was manufatured and other things, makes huge difference about how long the film will last.

After made safe preservation masters from the original nitrate camera negative ofone With The Wind, they donated it to George Estman House, which didn't had so proper storage condition. In this new restoration, perfect, they come back to the original camera negatives and scaned it in 4K (4048x pixel left to right).

Here some earlier colorization attempts from metropolis: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/5555...lor_images.htm

Alfred Bergman 01-30-07 12:09 PM


Originally Posted by baracine
But I love the colourized King Kong.:wtf:


Sorry Baracine. I saw some good colorizations from 80's, considering the technical limitations back them, with fine color design. But the colorization of King Kong, which I have on tape, looks as was colorized by Kong kinself, with color pencils. "KONG CRAYIONS"
The florest scenes was just horrible. I could do bether.
If want a desent colorization you need ask Barry to colorize it today, from the new restoration digital clean-up made by Warner.

The colorization made TEd Turner invest on Film Preservation. Many films was restored and keept safe in duplicate safety material. He restored Gone With the Wind in the 80's, rerealise it. Anso so on...

baracine 01-30-07 07:24 PM


Originally Posted by Alfred Bergman
Sorry Baracine. I saw some good colorizations from 80's, considering the technical limitations back them, with fine color design. But the colorization of King Kong, which I have on tape, looks as was colorized by Kong kinself, with color pencils. "KONG CRAYIONS"
The florest scenes was just horrible. I could do bether.
If want a desent colorization you need ask Barry to colorize it today, from the new restoration digital clean-up made by Warner....

We have already seen that the latest DVD restoration of King Kong is much too grainy. It wouldn't make for good colour, in my humble opinion. As for the original colourization, I like it for sentimental reasons. It was also the best they could do at the time.

I refer you again to this letter from Russ Karras to DVD Savant: http://www.dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/s2123horr.html

Here's an excerpt:



Like you, it seems, I have been fortunate to see a goodly number of old films in 35mm, occasionally in original prints, and I even have a few oddments of nitrate from the 1920s and 1940s (including some original camera negative trims from 1940s Universal horrors!) in my very small collection of cinemabilia. There is grain to be found in it all, yes, but nothing like what one is forced to endure in some vintage films on DVD. I would point particularly to King Kong, a film I have seen in 35mm a few times and in 16mm several more times (once, as the projectionist with Marcel Delgado in the audience) and which has never looked as harshly grainy as it now does on DVD. The scene in the ship's cabin is probably the nadir. That appears to be playing out amid a dense swarm of gnats -- exceedingly distracting and annoying. It seems that DVD encoding tends to exacerbate grain, much as MP3 audio encoding (something I actually have experience of) tends to exacerbate sizzle in transfers from noisy shellac discs.

I understand that there were outraged protests from some quarters about the virtually grainless (and to my eyes absolutely beautiful) image in the DVD release of Citizen Kane. I am all in favor of historical accuracy, but based on my theatrical viewing experiences I would contend that the grainless Kane is more faithful to what its original audiences saw than is the grain-amplified Kong.

After all, 480-line video, even on DVD, comes nowhere near resolving all of the detail, including grain, in a low-generation 35mm image, so if the video looks as grainy as the print, let alone moreso, then something is wrong. If the use of some degree of electronic grain reduction can correct that, then by all means it should be used.

Alfred Bergman 01-30-07 08:33 PM

[QUOTE=baracine]We have already seen that the latest DVD restoration of King Kong is much too grainy. It wouldn't make for good colour, in my humble opinion. As for the original colourization, I like it for sentimental reasons. It was also the best they could do at the time.


This King Kong edition despite of grain (not so much)is the best know available film element. All older versions with no visible grain it's merely because there was less detail and softer image.
Even this Kong best film element having no more resolution than 2K 92024pixels width) it was scanned in 4K, to get more precision on levels related beetween grain pieces. The Truner version used a good print but not good as the one used for the new DVD, even concidering Turner print was shot from original camera negative in 30's or 40's, because was a print film stock.
It's not that grainy for a film from 30's. It's almost appropriated.

DTS Digitalk images coulkd make theis kong restoration a bit sharper with proper grain or "video clean look" with no grain as in Kane DVD, but it's the world's expensivest grain reduction technic.

Maybe you are used to think grain distort colorization because you saw many contrast grainy colorized films, and forgot that the high contrast was the probleme.

There is a peculiar fact in grainy color prints. In wide screens we see that the grain, which creates particles varing in density, also greates small particles variances in hue (color). In HD exibitions could be nice if Barry could adjust his tools to add hue variences to the grain particles. variances that alltogether would form the color base of a oblect a dress a hat, as in a real color grainy print.
Imagine alike colorize a B&W newspaper to look like a sharp color newspaper. The B&W dark reticles will need to get like the color reticles of a color paper print, formed by combination of different colo dots.

Alfred Bergman 01-30-07 08:36 PM

OOPPSS!!! I mean (2024pixels width), and not 92024pixels width)

baracine 01-31-07 08:34 AM


Originally Posted by Alfred Bergman
This King Kong edition despite of grain (not so much)is the best know available film element. All older versions with no visible grain it's merely because there was less detail and softer image.

I agree with the gentleman I already quoted twice: If there is a digital way to reduce grain, let's use it. As far as I'm concerned, the "grainy colour look" is the single element that makes colourizations objectionable to the casual viewer (on top of all the other "moral" objections, of course).

Alfred Bergman 02-01-07 11:44 AM


Originally Posted by baracine
I agree with the gentleman I already quoted twice: If there is a digital way to reduce grain, let's use it. As far as I'm concerned, the "grainy colour look" is the single element that makes colourizations objectionable to the casual viewer (on top of all the other "moral" objections, of course).

Idon't think Grain color look it's much noticeable in SD definition, 720x480pixels. Only for HD projected on Big Screens, I imagine.
Here a interesting short film. a silent made in 2color technicolor:
http--www.doctormacro-m1.com-FilmClips-MGM Shorts-MGM Short - Flag, The.wmv

baracine 02-01-07 12:09 PM


Originally Posted by Alfred Bergman
Idon't think Grain color look it's much noticeable in SD definition, 720x480pixels. Only for HD projected on Big Screens, I imagine.
Here a interesting short film. a silent made in 2color technicolor:
http--www.doctormacro-m1.com-FilmClips-MGM Shorts-MGM Short - Flag, The.wmv

Alfred, please repost your link carefully. It doesn't work.

baracine 02-01-07 12:13 PM

Here is the proper link: http://www.doctormacro-m1.com/FilmCl...lag,%20The.wmv

... and it will only work if you copy the shortcut into the URL bar of your open Windows Media Player or if you make Windows Media Player the default player for .wmv files.

The colours are lousy and the resolution is too low to appreciate the grain (if any).

The "red, white and blue" of the American flag becomes the "red, white and black", even if a convincing red must have required a lot of effort in the chemical department.

Dozens of other MGM shorts are available on this page: http://www.doctormacro.com/Movie%20S...M%20Shorts.htm Check out Jules Dassin's The Tell-Tale Heart (1941, with Joseph Schildkraut) in particular.

Alfred Bergman 02-01-07 04:50 PM


Originally Posted by baracine
Here is the proper link: http://www.doctormacro-m1.com/FilmCl...lag,%20The.wmv

The colours are lousy and the resolution is too low to appreciate the grain (if any).

The "red, white and blue" of the American flag becomes the "red, white and black", even if a convincing red must have required a lot of effort in the chemical department.

Thanks for correct the link.

That's how the 2 color technicolors is, and this one was very well made, since resulted in a good combination of colors, even if the flag it's not acurate.
If they got a pure red for that scene, they would not get pure blue, since the 2 color system only had 2 filter, usally Re/orange and Blue/green. Those very early Dye ranfer prints prints at that time was image softer, I think.
Did you watched The Aviator? The colors o begining, representing 2 Color technicolor era, wasn't natural, but nice.

I'm curious to know if the Newsreel Scene, colorized by Legend Films for The Aviator, was originated colorized like 2 color technicolor, or colorized like 3 color technicolor and futher going to filters to look like 2 color technicolor.

Barry_Sandrew 02-01-07 10:12 PM


Originally Posted by Alfred Bergman
Thanks for correct the link.

That's how the 2 color technicolors is, and this one was very well made, since resulted in a good combination of colors, even if the flag it's not acurate.
If they got a pure red for that scene, they would not get pure blue, since the 2 color system only had 2 filter, usally Re/orange and Blue/green. Those very early Dye ranfer prints prints at that time was image softer, I think.
Did you watched The Aviator? The colors o begining, representing 2 Color technicolor era, wasn't natural, but nice.

I'm curious to know if the Newsreel Scene, colorized by Legend Films for The Aviator, was originated colorized like 2 color technicolor, or colorized like 3 color technicolor and futher going to filters to look like 2 color technicolor.

Alfred,

Rob Legado (FX supervisor on Aviator) wanted us to colorize the Hells Angels premiere scenes as if they were shot in 2 strip. We suggested not doing that because the end result had to match the look of the rest of the shots. Instead, we suggested colorizing the scenes as they might look normally in color and then have Rob use filters to change the look to 2 strip to match the other shots.


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