Spiderbite

OT = Original Trilogy

O-OT = ?

TomOpus

Original-Original Trilogy... and in the unaltered version (as opposed to the altered OT).

I think we may need a glossary of acronyms sticky

Jay G.

Also,

OUT = Original Unalterd Trilogy

Spiderbite

I always thought that stating the OT means it is the unaltered version. When did that change?

If you meant the altered OT then you stated that they were the SE. Guess you know have to call them the OT-SE. Don't forget the PT and the O-PT (and possibly the OUPT).

Jay G.

Here's a retailer ad that JoeyOhhhh found back in May on another board:
http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/4...6dvdweb9xb.jpg

The Special Editions are mentioned in the DVD details. The details look excessively small, but remember that it's originally a 2-page ad in a trade publication. Still, the ad does heavily promote the original theatrical editions.

TomOpus

How about OAT = Original Altered Trilogy?

Jay G.

From:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequel_...nitial_details
'In 1979, director George Lucas said in an interview on the set of The Empire Strikes Back, "The first script was one of six original stories I had written in the form of two trilogies."'

Whether or not Vader was always meant to be Luke's father is open to debate. There's no real way of knowing what was going on in Lucas's head when he wrote the final versions of the story. However:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darth_V...ind_the_scenes
"Certainly the 'motif' of the villain turning out to be the hero's father is present in the 'Star Wars' outline as early as 1974."

He does go on to say he appended a third trilogy after the success of Star Wars, but all accounts are that he only had a vague idea of what that trilogy would be, and by the end of the OT, most of those ideas had been condensed down into the existing trilogy. There's no direct quote from Lucas that states there would be twelve episodes. So at best it went 6 episodes, then 9, then back to the original 6.

And it's not like his creative inconsistency is even in doubt. His SE changes to the films were obstensibly at first just a way to update effects and things that couldn't be done when the movies were first released, but even the 97 SEs had editorial changes that had nothing to do with technical limitations and everything with story. However, he seems to like these changes and all his move since then have been to change them further and promote the newer versions far over the original unaltered ones.

I can't find a cite for this.

I think this was because he wanted to create final "definitive" versions of the films after all six episodes had been finished. According to rumors, that still sounds like the plan, although he did relent and release what he probably considers "incomplete" versions of each film on DVD beforehand. Marketing drove the decision, and possibly piracy concerns, but there's little to indicate that either of those factors will be strong enough to dictate a restored transfer of the OUT. The majority of consumers are satisfied with the current releases, and even many die-hard fans like yourself have purchased the SE, and pirate copies of the OUT are no better, and in some cases worse, than the official release now.

Maybe when he said that the OUT would "never" be on DVD, he was thinking in terms of a new and restored transfer, what people normally think of concerning a new release. Considering that this DVD release has neither a new or restored transfer, Lucas doesn't really consider it a proper DVD release in the terms that he was thinking of when he was quoted.

I find the idea that Lucas will eventually release a new transfer of the OUT a mix of cynicism and optimism. It's like "Lucas is always lying about things, so therefore he's lying about this too and will eventually give us what we really want!" Howver, Lucas has given every indication that he doesn't consider the OUT as legitimate versions anymore. This DVD release actually enforces that idea, since even in the wake of fan demand and outrage, they stuck to using a 13-year-old transfer over a remaster.

Brooklyn

These aren't the posters I was referring to, and finding a trade ad is
not the same as seeing them plastered in storefront windows. Were
these used at the retail level? The poster blitz I saw in the stores here (MA)
were solely about owning the "unaltered" versions. There were even
slipcovers with the same artwork/notation for the alarm posts at the
entry/exit points of some stores.

digitalfreaknyc

Brooklyn,
I know exactly what you're talking about. i saw a poster today promoting the original versions. I have also seen posters and stand-up's at Strawberries/FYE locations promoting them.

milo bloom

Jay G: Unfortunately a lot of the things I'm going on have just sort of become common knowledge (at least, around the internet they have). Just check out any other SW forum and you'll see plenty of people that have read these statements too. You and me throwing a bunch of quotes taken out of context at each other isn't going to settle this dispute.

But this however
This is the flimsiest comeback I've seen on a message board in ages. The biggest reason for all the hubbub surrounding this release is the poor quality of the original versions. No one with any sense at all would have thought that for all the years we asked and begged and petitioned Lucas for the original versions on DVD, we would also need to specify that we want a new transfer, 16x9 enhancement, and 5.1 sound. Maybe we were foolish to "assume" Lucas would do these right, but I still feel the onus for this substandard release is solely on Lucas' head, as he has clearly demonstrated a working knowledge of the specifications of DVD with all the previous releases.

Cynical? Bitter? I'm a 32 year old Star Wars fan, what do you think?

Jay G.

So you agree that the incidents of alleged inconsistency are in dispute.

And that was my point, that when Lucas said the OUT wouldn't appear on DVD, he was thinking in exactly those terms: a new, restored transfer meeting the technology specifications of the day. In those terms, this new release doesn't count.

In fact, the new release lends more credence to Lucas's claims that he doesn't consider the OUT as legitimate versions of the OT anymore and won't put any effort toward preserving it. It doesn't really lend credence to him suddenly changing his mind and restoring the OUT in any way. If he didn't do it for this DVD release, why would he do it for any other?

Nobody said it wasn't. However, whomever's fault it is doesn't change the end choice for the consumer: either take the sub-standard DVD release, which is still better than any previous release of the OUT, or wait for hypothetical better version that may never come.

Josh-da-man

The plans for the nine-film saga (as of 1980, after ESB had been completed) were detailed by Gary Kurtz:

Sometime between ESB and ROTJ, Lucas decided to collapse Eps 6-9 into ROTJ. Whether or not he abandoned the third trilogy at that time is up for debate.

And, whether or not Vader was always supposed to be Luke Skywalker's father is also kind of complex. Anyone who has read the numerous pre-production drafts of the "Star Wars" screenplays knows that there was, at the time, no real master plan for the series. The characters and storyline were in a constant state of flux with the only real unifying theme being a multigenerational space opera and the line "I'll be careful"/"You'll be dead." I would wager that it's entirely possible that, while filming the first movie, Lucas was at least entertaining the idea that Darth Vader was Luke Skywalker's father.

But the claim that the Star Wars saga was always about the fall and redemption of Anakin Skywalker seems dubious at best, especially when taking into consideration the nine-film plan as of 1980 when Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader doesn't even appear until Episode III.

milo bloom

Not at all, the point is there are so many inconsistencies, that us throwing different stories at each other won't help. I think this helps my argument more than yours.

I don't think so. He can call it what he wants, but to me, it's quacking like a duck; he has released the originals on DVD. If he had released these LD transfers on DVD back in 1997 or 1998, forestalling a lot of the bad blood, they would certainly have been accepted as "DVDs". I still think it was pretty crappy of Lucas to foist them on us in 2006 though.


I've waited this long. I sent a message to Lucasfilm letting them know my displeasure (and they said they were reading at least some of the messageboards). They know what we want, I can wait a little longer.

Steve

k. I just watched ESB - new and original. I actually really liked the enhanced special effects. As far as story changes, I am not sure what Lucas was thinking. In regards to the Non-SE not being anamorphic - well that is just a travesty. Even untouched, it could have been anamorphic!

Also, Listened to some of the commentary on the SE. Kirschner confirmed what I have thought all along - Lucas was NOT involved in the making of ESB except for putting up $ and writing the basic plot. He did NOT direct, produce or even script the film. More profoundly, for the premiere Lucas did not show, telling Kirschner 'it's YOUR film. you need to go.' On top of this just compare ESB with ANY of the other films - it is different in tone, pacing, and even acting. I really can't see how anyone can deny that Kirschner is the genius behind this film.

I think Lucas owes his wealth to Richard Donner and Irwin Kirschner. Donner, because it was only because of the success of his Omen that the studio had the $ to finance the first film, and Kirschner because ESB was the film that made the franchise, in my opinion. If lucas would have scripted, produced and directed it, it could have gone the way of Phantom Menace, and the franchise would have died before #3, like what happened to the Matrix films. Just my opinion, but I really think it was ESB that had people say 'hey - this series is great! they are really onto something! i can't wait until the next one!". something to think about anyway.

Also, where are the trailers? Didn't see any on ESB. or am I missing it?

Jay G.

The OUT couldn't have been anamorphic without a new transfer or upconverting the image. An upconversion would've had little image benefit, and would've been detrimental to the image for mayn viewers actually. As for a new transfer, Lucas didn't approve one. Even if he had, a new transfer, even anamorphic, without any restoration had the potential to look much worse than the existing transfer. The film elements are 13-years older as well, and probably not in the best of shape considering Lucas's opinion of the OUT. Look at the anamorphic vs. non-anamorphic DVDs of Master of the Flying Guillotine for an example.

Lucas wrote several drafts of the script after Leigh Brackett's and before Lawrence Kasdan's. Kasdan said he based his script largly on Lucas's drafts for the film.

He did that for the UK Royale Premeire of the film, not the premeire of the film. And the full dialogue was "I'm not going. This is your film. You did it. If I go, it'll take the limelight away from you." It seems to stem more from modesty, or at least acknoledgement of Kershner's importance, than Lucas disowning any impact on the film himself. Or maybe Lucas just didn't want to travel to London.

Nobody is denying that Kirshner was a big influence on the film. However, he and Kasdan were still artists-for-hire working to serve Lucas's vision.

Either way though, Kershner doesn't have a problem with the changes:

"Kershner is thrilled with the recent digital embellishments to his movie"
http://www.salon.com/ent/col/srag/19...er/index1.html

I think the first Star Wars film really generated the inertia the series had. The first film was the highest grossing film ever, so plenty of people couldn't wait until "the next one." If ESB had been deadfully awful it could've stopped the series dead in its tracks. However, even if Lucas himself had personally wrote the final draft and directed ESB, even though it probably wouldn't have been as good, it likely would've been good enough to continue the series. You think the man who made Star Wars 2 years previous couldn't have directed a serviceable sequel?

chanster

Lucas said the Phantom Menace wasn't going to be released on DVD until "blue light" DVD came out, and then he said it wouldn't be released until the prequel trilogy was finished. That's a fact go ahead and search the archives of theforce.net to confim it.

here is just one confirming page for your reference
http://www.reel.com/reel.asp?node=ne.../reviews/page2

Thats why those who enjoyed TPM and/or Star Wars completists bought the widescreen version of Phantom Menace - which by the way was only available in a special set that cost way more than a VHS should have at the time. But it came with a neato piece of film stock.
Thats also why people imported the Japanese laserdisc.

Thats only the tip of the iceberg with Lucas marketing disinformation.

Oh and by the way, the original headline on starwars.com regarding te newest release was something like "See Star Wars Like you Saw it in 1977" After people realized they were putting the equivelent of 1993 transfers on DVD, calling them "special features" the PR machine began to emphasize the movies were going to be available seperately.

Jay G.

I still don't see why anyone would think this indicates that Lucas will re-release the OUT in better quality. When TPM did appear on DVD, it was a re-worked longer cut of the film, the only way to see the theatrical cut is on LD or VHS. Even Eps 2 and 3 received tweaks on their DVD release, and the OT SE DVDs are of reworked 2004 editions, the 97 SE seems to be completely gone. All indicators point to future Star Wars DVDs featuring more tweaks to the films, such as the replacement of TPM Yoda puppet with CGI. Lucas has been messing with these films since 1981 when he added "Episode IV: A New Hope." Any steps backward have been minimal at best and restricted to supplementary or bonus material.

chanster

It proves that Lucas' statements regarding releases of Star Wars films have no credibility and his only motivating factor is selling units.

So if there is a demand for the product, the product will come out.

I would say that people demanding the original theaterical cut of Phantom Menace are the only the hardest of hard core Star Wars completists, and Lucas know this.

He does know that a decent release of the original theaterical version would sell units and he knows this.

Lucas as a studio has reprehensible double/triple dip policies, probably the worst around..because at least some studios tell you there will be double dips. Lucas on the other hand consistently lies about it, and the people who admire him for his artistic vision constantly lap up the lies.

Jay G.

It doesn't "prove" that. And a shifted timetable is much different than one that doesn't exist at all.

The product did come out, just recently. I just don't understand why people think it will come out again, in better quality, when everything about Lucas's opinion of the OUT indicates otherwise.

That wasn't my point. My point was everything points to Lucas only releasing more revisions in the future, not less, and certainly not making a full reversal back to the OUT.

If Lucas were truly manipulating the market just for money, why didn't he release the theatrical TPM on DVD barebones, then release the SE extended cut later? Why release Ep 2 and 3 DVDs with extras at all?

If that was a factor, why didn't he produce a decent transfer for this release? Why didn't he do it previous to this?

For Lucasfilm, this is already the third DVD release of these films. There will likely be a fourth next year, but nothing indicates that Lucas is thinking of releasing the OUT in a better format then or further in the future.

Granted, he could change his mind. But it is nowhere near the sure thing many people are thinking it is, and most of the evidence indicates that given his opinion of the OUT, it is highly unlikely.

chanster

Shifted timetable? Nice euphenism for outright lie. He told people that he wasn't sold on the DVD format, blah balh, we have that heard that before. Now he has released the movies 3 times in the format.

No! According to Lucas' apologists, it didn't really come out because it is just a special feature and therefore doesn't need to be remastered. Its really a stupid game with Lucas backers, they say one thing, then say the exact opposite. Its doublespeak.

And besides, its not Lucas' opinion of the OT that matters - its the pursuit of the holy buck. As far as I can tell, Lucasfilm's marketing strategy is to continue to keep Star Wars in the public conciousness by releasing the films, over and over again. The movies are done, but they need more cash - so release the films again with some new material (i.e. a remaster) to promote their latest videogame, TV series, etc.

Because he know he can sell a transfer that is shit because of his previous comments about never releasing it. Plus it cost him O to remaster it. So more profit.

And of course, he can now release a cleaned up version because he will say that the listened to the fans "who wanted a cleaner copy".

Frankly, I don't care what your point was intended to be. Its just reinforces the marketing disinformation scheme.

He released a barebones TPM version but on VHS and charged an arm and a leg for it. And by announcing prior to the VHS version, that TPM would not be on DVD for the forseeable future, he ensured (a) double-dipping and (b) people would be crazy about TPM being released on DVD.

And of course, he is doing some shit with the OT. Release a substandard version, say it will never be released again, and then turn around in a 1-2 years and sell them new and improved stuff.

Jay G.

How do you know it was an outright lie? Do you have proof that the DVD was already planned when he said otherwise? I can see how someone could say that Lucasfilm's announcements of releases have been inconsistent and change, but there's nothing that indicates that these are premeditated lies.

If it's all about the money, why did he make more changes to the OT after the 97 SE? It's not like the DVD box-set sold more than if he had just put the 97 SEs on there. He made more changes, revising Jabba in A New Hope, The Emperor in ESB, and Anakin in ROTJ because he thinks these are improvements. His goal is to create a "definitive" version of the trilogy and to promote that version as much as possible. If he re-releases the OUT in any comparable form of quality to his OT, then that undermines his goal.

Much like any movie studio really.

And there's going to be a fourth release next year most likely, with further revisions. However, there's nothing to indicate that Lucas would utilize a restored transfer of the OUT to promote another release. Don't you think the marketing department at Lucasfilm was itching for a quality transfer for this release?

I do think the fact that it cost near nothing for them to do this release of the OUT is why it occurred. However, that's because everything indicates that $0 is exactly how much Lucas wants to ever spend on the OUT again, and sadly a quality transfer would cost quite a bit more than that.

He can, but that doesn't mean he will.

It's only disinformation if it turns out to be untrue. So far, there's nothing to indicate that the OUT will get a rerelease anytime in the near, or far, future.


No, you don't get what I was getting at. He could've released the VHS, then a bare-bones DVD, then the SE DVD release that he did. Likewise with the OT, he could've released the 97 SE on DVD, and then a further revised release. At the least, the 3-disc box-set could've had some exclusive that would've tempted the 4-disc set owners to double-dip on that, if money was his only motivation. However, there seem to be other motivations that drive which versions of the films get on DVD, and that seems to be driven by his revisionism and desire to create a final perfect cut of each film while forgetting all past versions.

No, as you wrote, he said that TPM wouldn't be on DVD "for the forseeable future." All announcements of TPM mentioned that the DVD release would happen, but much further down the line than it did. People who bought it on VHS did so with the expectation that it would eventually be on DVD. With the OUT, all announcement say that this release is it, there's no plans for any revist at all, in the foreseable future or futher out.

That the OUT is out on DVD at all is a minor miracle. Those who're waiting for a better release on DVD are waiting for a larger miracle that may never come.

Steve

Wow! learn something new everyday. Didn't realize this..Thanks for the education...the OT looked 'decen't to me - but compared to the 'touchup' for the SE the difference really stood out.

No, actually I don't. Seriously - what good film has that man directed, wrote and produced since A New Hope? That was a film that everything clicked -and it came out at the right time. Of course, this is all speculation, but in the link you provided it told me, at least, that Lucas understood he wasn't ready as a mature director, and wanted someone older and more experienced than him to make the sequel. Who knows what ESB would have been with only Lucas behind it? Not worth arguing about and I am sorry I brought it up.. What was done, was done. And it's one of my favorite films...so am happy the way it turned out.

rennervision

Does anyone know how well these are selling? Just curious if it's "all coming out in the end" or whatever Lucas predicted. (Whatever that meant.)

milo bloom

No details, but still interesting to see

http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/s...ion_100566.asp

Gamelore

Even if they do come out with an anamorphic set that makes this set obsolete, the tin is awesome by itself.