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Star Wars OT Non SE 09.12.06 PART 2

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Star Wars OT Non SE 09.12.06 PART 2

Old 09-15-06, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Terrell
Exactly! Too bad Bill Hunt didn't check them out before going on Attack of the Show. He made some good points, but blew it when he mentioned the bootlegs look as good as these.
? It's in his official review, you think he was just guessing? You think he went on a show to discusss a product, and didn't see it first?

Have *you* seen the same boots he has? And you would know this how?
Old 09-15-06, 11:33 AM
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I'm still on the fence with these. I'd like to pick them up, but last night I was watching the Criterion version of Armageddon (which is non-anamorphic, widescreen). I tried several things to make the image look best given my player and 16X9 display. My best option would be to upscale the image and use my display's zoom. This does make scanlines a bit noticable (since I have a CRT RPTV), but is the best way to watch non-anamorphic widescreen discs. Too bad Lucas couldn't have just done a fake enhancement or zoom with the actual discs (like my laser disc backups). This would have worked much better for many people.
Old 09-15-06, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidH
Too bad Lucas couldn't have just done a fake enhancement or zoom with the actual discs (like my laser disc backups). This would have worked much better for many people.
By the same token, it would have worked much worse for many other people. Those watching the discs on a 4:3 TV would be subjected to a picture that had been upconverted to anamorphic in the studio and then downconverted back to the original resolution by their DVD player. That would introduce a lot more artifacts.
Old 09-15-06, 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
By the same token, it would have worked much worse for many other people....
Plus, how much outrage would there have been over Lucasfilm using fake anamorphic?
Old 09-15-06, 03:04 PM
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These new Star Wars dvds strike me as reissues only with the original films appearing as bonus disks which is why the quality is average at best and not anamorphic. That is why these are limited editions, because of the bonus disks. So these (original films) will probably recieve better treatment one day perhaps. Anybody agree?
Old 09-15-06, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
Plus, how much outrage would there have been over Lucasfilm using fake anamorphic?

Probably the same outrage they got for releasing non-anamorphic discs.
Old 09-15-06, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by sracer
I have a 16x9 TV, and a quality DVD player and it doesn't "suck". Have you actually played these discs on your setup?
I have a Toshiba HD-A1 that will not strech non-anamorphic DVDs. Instead it windowboxs the picture. I am not a big Star Wars fan, but I would have purchased this set if the original versions had been anamorphic.
Old 09-15-06, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dvd_luver
These new Star Wars dvds strike me as reissues only with the original films appearing as bonus disks which is why the quality is average at best and not anamorphic. That is why these are limited editions, because of the bonus disks. So these (original films) will probably recieve better treatment one day perhaps. Anybody agree?
Not sure about the second part (who knows?), but yeah, the first part is correct. This is technically only a reissue of the movies available separately for the first time. It's only significant in that they include the bonus material of the original versions.
Old 09-15-06, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by dvd_luver
These new Star Wars dvds strike me as reissues only with the original films appearing as bonus disks which is why the quality is average at best and not anamorphic. That is why these are limited editions, because of the bonus disks. So these (original films) will probably recieve better treatment one day perhaps. Anybody agree?
I agree with everything except the last line. There's no guarantee that the original unaltered trilogy will receive better treatment or get a better release somewhere down the line. Lucas has said he doesn't see the need to restore or release the original unaltered trilogy in any better quality since, to him, they don't exist anymore as actual films. We may have to wait until the films are completely out of Lucas's control before any official new high-quality release is made.
Old 09-15-06, 04:25 PM
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Yeah, there's always that chance there may never be another official release... which is one of the reasons I grabbed it now.
Old 09-15-06, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
We may have to wait until the films are completely out of Lucas's control before any official new high-quality release is made.
That's my thought as well... it's hard to predict.

On one hand, you have Lucas saying that he doesn't consider these to be the 'real trilogy'. On the other, you have the facts that Lucas (a) changes his tune a lot and (b) has some sense of film history.

It's hard to decide what will ultimately happen. By and large, I suspect that the original editions will be maintained and restored one day and will be provided to people at home in high definition (or whatever the standard is at the time). But I'm not convinced that George Lucas will ultimately be the one to make that decision. We may be in for a long, long wait... one that involves even *more* changes to the trilogy, beyond what we saw in 2004.
Old 09-15-06, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by dvd_luver
These new Star Wars dvds strike me as reissues only with the original films appearing as bonus disks which is why the quality is average at best and not anamorphic. That is why these are limited editions, because of the bonus disks. So these (original films) will probably recieve better treatment one day perhaps. Anybody agree?
I agree. It's all about making money with Lucas (evidenced by history of Star Wars on home video formats).

I do believe he will restore the originals for DVD one day. It will be a huge marketing event, something like...."Now get the classic, original trilogy restored and remastered like you deserve in THX, blah, blah" Lucas is going to want another revenue source to milk one day.
Old 09-15-06, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Z
By the same token, it would have worked much worse for many other people. Those watching the discs on a 4:3 TV would be subjected to a picture that had been upconverted to anamorphic in the studio and then downconverted back to the original resolution by their DVD player. That would introduce a lot more artifacts.
True, but does anyone with an interlaced 4:3 set really care about seeing additional artifacts or image quality? I mean if they did, they would have a 16X9 display. I doubt most people would even notice. In fact, I have viewed the anamorphic laser disc backups on an older Sony 61" 4X3. I didn't think they looked that bad at all (for what they were and given the display).
Old 09-15-06, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by DavidH
True, but does anyone with an interlaced 4:3 set really care about seeing additional artifacts or image quality? I mean if they did, they would have a 16X9 display.
That's a bit insulting to 4:3 owners. There may be plenty of 4:3 owners who are concerned about quality that can't afford a brand-new display at this time.

I'm not sure that Lucasfilm should've jumped through hopes to provide a questionable upconversion that would've provided questionable quality benefits and would've upset other people who would accuse them of fakery just to appease a small portion of 16:9 owners, themselves a small portion of the population, who can't zoom in the image.
Old 09-15-06, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
That's a bit insulting to 4:3 owners. There may be plenty of 4:3 owners who are concerned about quality that can't afford a brand-new display at this time.

I'm not sure that Lucasfilm should've jumped through hopes to provide a questionable upconversion that would've provided questionable quality benefits and would've upset other people who would accuse them of fakery just to appease a small portion of 16:9 owners, themselves a small portion of the population, who can't zoom in the image.

There's an old saying that goes, "If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop diggin." Just to be clear, I'm directing this at Lucas; I'm just mainly trying to say that it would have been such a simple step to make a decent new anamorphic transfer, and everybody would have been happy. We're pulling our hair out here trying to make these discs work on our various displays, when all it would have taken was for Lucas (a technology pioneer over the years), to have adhered to the minimum industry standard of the day.
Old 09-15-06, 07:01 PM
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I think there is a very good chance that this is the last release of the unaltered trilogy in George Lucas' life time. Again, I'm not defending this release but this is a no win situation. Some people are still mad he said the Faces set was the last time to own the originals and that he changed his mind. So when he won't change his mind, he is a stubborn old man and when he does he's a greedy bastard.

The other point I want to mention is, people need to get over this idea that Star Wars releases are money grabs. Star Wars in NOT unique in this way, I work in the home video industry and re releases have always been part of things, and is even bigger since DVD. This is three versions of Star Wars on DVD, and that is the norm. The difference with Star Wars is that usually involves more than just an artwork and price change. Is that good or bad? Look how many paramount films are have 3 or 4 versions on DVD, with just a new price and new artwork. Star Wars on VHS was the same, it wasn't re released anymore than other similar selling titles, but it usually involved something new. Personally, I like when they add stuff. If the studio has to re release titles in order to draw attention to it from both the consumer and the retailers, it might as well have something new. People who don't own it, may buy it this time around, and the fans may buy it again if they decide its worth it. What's wrong with that? If you have ever read a re release thread on DVDtalk you know there are people who will buy it again just for new artwork because they are nuts over the film or they just like to collect, and others won't buy it even when its cheaper and vastly improved. Star Wars fans want this stuff, its a free market. The market is flooded with Star Wars licensing because we buy it. I will buy every Star Wars home video release just because its Star Wars, and I will skip lots of more worthwhile re releases just because I don't care about those films like I do Star Wars.

I know this will probably make me sound like a real Lucas fanboy, but after seeing the comparisons on StarWars.com and the split screen DVDs. I almost believe that these are the only originals left. If you haven't seen these side by side comparisons, check them out, we are almost at the point that the only thing left in the original trilogy are the actors. Backgrounds, sets, and effects are almost all new. I watched the unaltered films for the first time in awhile and the sky is what really stuck out to me. In the unaltered New Hope, there are lots of shots with blue skys and normal clouds, and in the new versions they have all been changed. Also lots of the ship sets have been redone with CG. Whether you like the changes or not, its a big reason the 2004 DVDs look so good. I think I will spend the most time watching the new versions, but the originals are important to film history and nostalgia, so I hope LucasFilm can spend the time and money digging up the best possible elements and do one final version of the unaltered trilogy in HD.
Old 09-15-06, 07:58 PM
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Originally Posted by milo bloom
There's an old saying that goes, "If you find yourself in a hole, the first thing to do is stop diggin." Just to be clear, I'm directing this at Lucas; I'm just mainly trying to say that it would have been such a simple step to make a decent new anamorphic transfer, and everybody would have been happy. We're pulling our hair out here trying to make these discs work on our various displays, when all it would have taken was for Lucas (a technology pioneer over the years), to have adhered to the minimum industry standard of the day.


A Perspective

I have come to one conclusion. The original versions on this release are intended to be bonus material. Like deleted scenes. Nothing more. How many discs have you seen where the deleted scenes are of terrible quality (and NOT anamorphic), but that still give you the opportunity to see them just for fun. That's what the original version is to Lucas. This is not intended for people to buy this set, take out the SE version and toss it in the garbage, and say "this is my version of Star Wars - the original editions... ahhh...." - this is intended to be merely BONUS material. Deleted scenes. Something you can throw on with your kids and say, "See, when I first saw these, we thought these were great effects! What a joke! Look at how far we have come!" These originals were included for one purpose - to be purely bonus material to make us appreciate the new and improved versions all the more.

It didn't work for me by the way. I want to do just the opposite - throw away the SE's (and the prequels with them) and pretend that THOSE don't exist. I don't care if Lucas continues to "improve" and change the SE's every year and keep releasing them. He can add Natalie Portman to Star Wars. He can add Liam Neesen to Empire. He can add Hayden Christensen to Jedi. (oh wait). I don't care anymore. He can even make a CG Yoda for Episode 1. It's still a terrible movie. He can make Star Wars in 3D. Who cares. Lucas is missing the fact that it's the heart and creativity that makes these movies, not the flash.

If he releases the originals in some better format like HD (or even just anamorphic!) down the road, no problem, I'll upgrade. But sadly these "bonus" discs are meant just for you and me who think the SE's and prequels are awful. Just awful. (But that's another discussion).

I sold my laserdisc versions years ago (along with my player) because I can't stand interrupting movies to flip them every half hour (for the CAV's). VHS is way out of date and I couldn't stand to watch them that way. So I picked up this legal version and I watched the original versions for the first time in 10 years this week. These were all so much fun. Yes some people like one better or another less, but as a whole, all three were great.

So yes, widescreen owners will have to either zoom in, or watch them in a small box. Or get the movies from another source. It's not fair and it's an insult to all of us. But that's just the way it is right now. We have to accept that the creator of these no longer cares about them. They were included for our amusement and entertainment purposes only.

I'm sorry. I feel your pain. You are insulted, they are not anamorphic, you will not buy them. And you want to tell Lucas you will not give him any more money for a poor treatment of these beloved movies. He can't get away with it and profit from it. It sends the message that it's ok to release sub-par versions because people will still buy them, and he will go to bed knowing he was right - people want the new versions.

Or, like me, it's still a glimmer of your childhood or days gone by, and you will still get them because even a reduced version is better than no version at all. And you want to tell Lucas you will give him more of your money because you want to tell him that these versions still matter. It sends the message that while these are poor representations of the orginal versions, we will still buy them because that's how badly we want the originals. Yes he is the creator. He can change them all he wants. But please don't forget about these originals. And he will go to bed remembering what it was like to be that young man in the desert using his imagination instead of a computer.

So do what you will. Buy them. Don't buy them. We're both right and we're both wrong. All I know is, the more George Lucas tightens his grip, the more fans will slip through his fingers.

Sincerely,

-Rooked
Old 09-15-06, 08:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jay G.
That's a bit insulting to 4:3 owners. There may be plenty of 4:3 owners who are concerned about quality that can't afford a brand-new display at this time.
Thank you. It bugs me that some people will assume everyone can afford to have a nice car, home and HT.


p.s. Nice post, Rooked
Old 09-15-06, 08:20 PM
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hey heres a question...what version of the OT comes with the FS release? is it a P&S bonus disc as well, or is the bonus disc only available in non anamorphic WS...
Old 09-15-06, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Cameron
hey heres a question...what version of the OT comes with the FS release? is it a P&S bonus disc as well, or is the bonus disc only available in non anamorphic WS...
Both come with widescreen bonus discs, I have been waiting for someone to complain about this. "Lucas raped my childhood again, I grew up watching the trilogy in pan and scan" Cameron this isn't aimed at you, I know you were just asking.
Old 09-15-06, 09:02 PM
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no offense taken...i have yet to naysay against the whole thing...i'm in the camp of happy to have it in any form...

sometimes i think, I'm over Star Wars...but moreso I think I'm over Star Wars fans.
Old 09-15-06, 10:28 PM
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? It's in his official review, you think he was just guessing? You think he went on a show to discusss a product, and didn't see it first?

Have *you* seen the same boots he has? And you would know this how?
Um, he was on the show before he posted his review on his site. If he wrote them before he appeared, then he obviously was blind or clueless. The numerous bootlegs I've seen do not look as good, so much so that it's obvious. I own two different bootlegs and I've seen most of the known bootlegs. None of them look as good. As for the boots he has seen, they're the same as everyone else has seen. There are no magical set of bootlegs of Star Wars that sets a new standard. All of the boots look roughly the same, with some slightly better than others. Some of them don't even look as good as the LD, and the DVD is noticeably better than the LD. Either way, he didn't make a distinction about which bootlegs. He just said "the bootlegs look as good" and that's incorrect.
Old 09-15-06, 10:38 PM
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I'll back you up on that Terrell. I have seen each of the bootlegs and none of them look nearly as good as these DVD's. I was looking forward to the XO project, but I think they need to start over using these DVD's.
Old 09-15-06, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by milo bloom
I read somewhere else the movie files are about 7 gig, so that's an automatic dual layer.
Thanks!
Old 09-16-06, 03:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Cameron
no offense taken...i have yet to naysay against the whole thing...i'm in the camp of happy to have it in any form...

sometimes i think, I'm over Star Wars...but moreso I think I'm over Star Wars fans.
Well amen to that.

"You will never find a more wretched hive of whiners and crybabies."

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