DVD Talk Forum

DVD Talk Forum (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/)
-   DVD Talk (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/dvd-talk-3/)
-   -   Police raid Michigan comic convention, shut down DVD bootlegs (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/dvd-talk/466078-police-raid-michigan-comic-convention-shut-down-dvd-bootlegs.html)

Jericho 05-20-06 10:32 PM

Reading this thread I get the feeling that most posters feel "entitled" to movies, and when whoever doesn't release a DVD of the stuff they want, its acceptable to get a bootleg. Maybe its just me, but I find that thinking disturbing. People aren't owed anything, and there is no right in owning a movie. Now this isn't to say people can't get bootlegs, but don't try to justify it. Hell, knowingly buying a bootleg can make one contributorily liable for infringement (though who would bring suit on that?).

As for the arrests, I say good for the police. Because the crimes are in all likelihood federal crimes, I suspect these were federal officials (i.e. FBI) as mentioned above, not local cops. Although it's not like arresting a few bootlegers will really take any manpower away from local police forces.

Tarantino 05-20-06 11:07 PM


Originally Posted by Jericho
Although it's not like arresting a few bootlegers will really take any manpower away from local police forces.

Seriously. I fucking laugh when people make remarks like 'go catch some terrorists, or some drug dealers'.

Yeah...

Might as well not give out traffic tickets either, since they should be out catching murderers and terrorists instead.

= J

BigDan 05-21-06 12:56 AM

I don't have a problem with companies asserting their intellectual property rights, but I have a problem with the way criminal prosecution of copyright infrigement seems to only happen when corporations are the ones whose property is being infringed.

I mean, nobody even threated Jeff Katzenberg and Eddie Murphy with jail when they stole Art Buchwald's intellectual property.

MovieExchange 05-21-06 02:58 AM


Originally Posted by Jericho
Reading this thread I get the feeling that most posters feel "entitled" to movies, and when whoever doesn't release a DVD of the stuff they want, its acceptable to get a bootleg. Maybe its just me, but I find that thinking disturbing.

"Entitled"? Not at all. I do, however, feel that there is justification in buying a bootleg at times. To give yet another example, movies by Jodorowsky. They aren't available in America. Why? Because of a stupid feud that lead to Allan Klein buying the rights to his films and refusing to release them on DVD in America out of spite. I simply refuse to let stupid things like that interfere with my enjoyment of a movie or TV series.

Any of you that think less of me for breaking the law, I expect you to deliver yourself to your local police department and demand a ticket every time you exceed the speed limit, as you're breaking the law also.

calhoun07 05-21-06 03:12 AM


Originally Posted by Peep
I heard that bootleggers who sell out of print or unreleased titles often reduce the chances of offical releases by softening the market.

Maybe that a misperception, but who is going to buy the rights to a title if they think it's readily available as a bootleg?

There is one instance where the availbility of bootlegs encouraged a studio to release a DVD. My So Called Life is such an example. Once it was shown to the people in charge how well bootleg sets were selling on Ebay, the green light came to get the sets out, and they sold quite well, much higher than anticipated by the studio.

If it's a popular bootleg, it will be a popular release as well. Die hard fans who would settle for a bootleg will give up the money for a proper release with better quality once it rolls along.

calhoun07 05-21-06 03:23 AM


Originally Posted by Egon's Ghost
Even if something isn't on DVD, I just have a problem paying more than $.10 for a bootleg. How in the hell can a website like DVDavenue.tv exist? Everything there is a bootleg. Full series sets of The Addams Family. Um, yeah. $100 for something that was ripped from TV Land?! To quote James Caan, "f*ck you in your a$$hole!" Why aren't they raided?

And that's pretty much how I feel about it. For these bootleggers, their over all costs to put out the product is next to nothing. The more slick of them may have DVD duplicators that are capable of doing several DVDs at once, which is costly to buy the machine, but to charge $15-$20.00 for something that pretty much cost a buck or two to make? I don't feel the need to give an asshole my hard earned money because he either ripped the product from TV or because he managed to find a site where to download the stuff for free. And I will admit I did buy some bootlegs at a convention once, but it was such a stupid mistake. Most of the stuff wound up coming out in legit DVD anyway later on, and for the rest of it, the DVD-Rs they used turned out to be crap, as the DVD-Rs started to break up and pixelate after a while.

I am not sure I am for using tax payer money to bust them, but I wish people wouldn't give them the time of day and then they would just go away. For things like Batman TV series and such....if the fans of these shows really were that passionate about these programs, they would be available for free online. When I think of some bands that I like to collect live shows from, most of the time, I cannot find any body to sell me live shows. It's either by trade only or there are those kind enough to put up files for free online. I am for bootlegs as long as people aren't trying to get rich off of it. It's one thing to share things that will never be released commercially without greed, but it's another thing entirely if you expect me to help you pay your mortgage because you choose to sell things like that.

calhoun07 05-21-06 03:31 AM


Originally Posted by Jericho
Reading this thread I get the feeling that most posters feel "entitled" to movies, and when whoever doesn't release a DVD of the stuff they want, its acceptable to get a bootleg. Maybe its just me, but I find that thinking disturbing. People aren't owed anything, and there is no right in owning a movie.

I've already posted my feelings on buying vs. using fan communities to get this kind of stuff for free, but I wanted to say that in many instances, I don't feel that it's some kind of sense of "entitlement." People just want this stuff on a format that isn't going to wear out. If they can't transfer their own VHS copies to DVD, then they will find somebody who can do it for them. I don't see that as a sense of entitlement. Some people can't do for themselves (such as record each and every episode of Batman off of TV) so they will turn to others who can do it for them. How is that entitlement?

Reservoir 05-21-06 08:35 AM

For years George Lucas has lied again and again. OK, now he's releasing Stars Wars as it was (and should be) and every fan well rebuy again. How many times is that?

I can't see anything wrong with someone owning or swapping a bootleg of the original film if the owner deliberately annoys a fan. We're dealing with people's memories here and not shares in Twentieth Century Fox or giving FBI agents something to do when they're not looking for Osama bin Laden in Idaho.

If you are found with 1,000 copies then that's different. Obviously.

flashburn 05-21-06 09:07 AM


Originally Posted by Kris81
Local plaza in my area (suburbs of toronto, those of you will know it as the asian plaza) have about 6-7 stores in the mall that sells any movie you want for about 5$ cdn (copied)

every few months, they're busted, shut down.. and re open up



personally i don't care.. i'd rather see cops spending more time busting drug dealers, rapists, murderers, etc, then worrying about dvd pirates

I remember going there while I was on a business trip. When I first saw the plaza, I was excited, hoping to find some imports. Of course, every single shop there was selling just bootlegs, it was amazing. Some of the bootlegs were rather professional looking, and others were very obvious.

boe 05-21-06 10:39 AM

Although I'll admit I am against people making a profit on bootleg discs, I see the argument about some things that are not coming out on DVD. I don't think bootlegs soften the market that much. I could download/buy a bootleg of stuff that is in the theatre right now but that won't stop them from coming out on DVD in 6 months - and the official releases will have much better transfer and more features.

There are several movies I'd download if I could since they've had more than enough time to release them on DVD. Not all of them are great but if they can release - dead alive, night to dismember, my giant, lord of illusions, On Deadly Ground...

I think they should be able to release -

IF looks could kill
Colossus: The Forbin Project - WIDESCREEN
The Soldier - released in Europe almost a year ago - Soldat
Run
Looker - pure cheese but I liked it for some reason - was able to download - bad transfer - VHS.
Blade Runner - not the F$#@# director's cut.

digitalfreaknyc 05-21-06 12:16 PM


Originally Posted by Reservoir
For years George Lucas has lied again and again. OK, now he's releasing Stars Wars as it was (and should be) and every fan well rebuy again. How many times is that?

Uhh...not "every."

Have you been to the Star Wars thread? I think a lot (most) of us won't.

Snowmaker 05-21-06 12:25 PM

Wow!

I should have went.

JerryKILL 05-21-06 01:32 PM

Supply and demand, folks. If the studios supplied the product I want I would buy it from them, otherwise...

I'm thinking of rare/obscure films that do not get released because of a perceived lack of profitability, not held up by some petty copyright dispute. I could literally list hundreds.

Case01 05-21-06 02:22 PM

Good old opinions and laws, stirring debate since 1858.

dvd-4-life 05-21-06 02:32 PM

Why don't the movie companies have a made-to-order business where if you want something in there library thats not available on dvd and free of copyright problems?They could charge 100 dollars for one yr of a tv series or 30 dollars for a movie making it profitable for them and keeping the diehard collectors happy.

Reservoir 05-21-06 04:17 PM


Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
Uhh...not "every."
Have you been to the Star Wars thread? I think a lot (most) of us won't.

Then they are not fanatical about the films.

MovieExchange 05-21-06 05:55 PM

I went to the convention today and talked to some people about what happened. Apparently the raid was very specific, all the dealers busted were offering bootlegs of The DaVinci Code.

The anime dealers were left alone, probably because most law enforcement folk only know the major names, not anime.

calhoun07 05-21-06 06:33 PM


Originally Posted by Reservoir
For years George Lucas has lied again and again. OK, now he's releasing Stars Wars as it was (and should be) and every fan well rebuy again. How many times is that?

The first time the original original trilogy will be on a home video format in quite a few years, actually, since Lucas told the public they would be released one last time then never again, back before the release of the 97 editions. And I doubt every fan will buy the new DVDs. Some will (gasp) actually be comfortable with the changes he made to the 2004 editions and continue living their lives.

sracer 05-21-06 06:37 PM


Originally Posted by ThatGuamGuy
If these are bootleggers, wouldn't it be the FBI who arrested them?

I think it's funny that people (not you, MasterCX) are ignoring the part about how at least some of the bootlegs were of movies currently in releases; folks, we *want* bootleggers like that arrested. Used stores buy bootlegs from people like this quite often, in my experience (inadvertantly, I'm sure).

It's unfortunate that the video community doesn't distinguish between "pirating" and "bootlegging". And worse than that, associates the lesser term "bootleg" with the more serious act of "piracy".

BOOTLEG = selling a homegrown product that isn't officially released.
PIRATE = selling a homegrown copy of an official product.


Originally Posted by ThatGuamGuy
Anybody selling other bootlegs at the con, I feel bad they got busted, but they ought to be selling on-line anyway (which, I would imagine, is where the comic sellers who no longer attend the con are).

And I don't buy the argument of "well, then the studios should release them!" If the bootleggers are doing it out of the goodness of their heart and not making a profit, I have no problem with it (examples: a lot of 'MST3k' fans, or some of the people who have made 'Star Wars' boots), but if you're charging premium prices for something you burned 100 copies of to DVD from an old VHS taped off of TV, I have no sympathy.

At the conventions and expos that I attend, vendors know the rules and don't offer PIRATED material, or are immediately shut down should they try to pedal PIRATED material. Thankfully, BOOTLEG stuff is left alone.

MovieExchange 05-21-06 06:54 PM


Originally Posted by sracer
It's unfortunate that the video community doesn't distinguish between "pirating" and "bootlegging". And worse than that, associates the lesser term "bootleg" with the more serious act of "piracy".

BOOTLEG = selling a homegrown product that isn't officially released.
PIRATE = selling a homegrown copy of an official product.


At the conventions and expos that I attend, vendors know the rules and don't offer PIRATED material, or are immediately shut down should they try to pedal PIRATED material. Thankfully, BOOTLEG stuff is left alone.


To bootleg means to produce, distribute or sell without permission or illegally (Dictionary.com)

Or we can go to Merriam-Webster, where the term "bootleg" is defined as "to produce, reproduce, or distribute illicitly or without authorization."

The terms "bootlegging" and "piracy" are pretty much interchangable.

rw2516 05-21-06 07:07 PM


Originally Posted by MovieExchange
To bootleg means to produce, distribute or sell without permission or illegally (Dictionary.com)

Or we can go to Merriam-Webster, where the term "bootleg" is defined as "to produce, reproduce, or distribute illicitly or without authorization."

The terms "bootlegging" and "piracy" are pretty much interchangable.

Is a distinction made between items that are intended to be passed off as original as opposed to those that you can tell the difference. Some bootlegs are actually real pressed dvds rather than burned dvd-rs. "Counterfeit" maybe.

nodeerforamonth 05-21-06 07:15 PM


Originally Posted by rexinnih
It's against the law. 'Nuff said.
You wouldn't steal a car, would you? Except if you were in Michigan right now, where you can get away with it because the cops are raiding comic conventions..........

Well here in CA, laws aren't enforced (i.e. speeding, driving while distracted, coming over the border w/o permission, murder if you're a celebrity, etc...). There's no danger of this happening at the Comic-Con in July.

shtfilter 05-21-06 08:20 PM

My problem with bootlegs...
 
The covers.

I am a member of two different cover sites and design custom covers sometimes and when I see the low quality covers the bootleggers use I want to punch them in the face.

"You expect me to buy a $20 copy of 'Begotten' with that to represent it?"

And I would like them to have a 16X9 TV there to show me the quality.

I don't care if studios lose money. If they wanted the money or product out there they would release it.

*Case in point, Shout Factory paying the money to get Freaks and Geeks out there with music intact. Of which, I paid the extra money for the yearbook edition.

P.S. I do not own any bootlegs, not even ones that I really want like Begotten or Salo. Eventually one day I will save up the money for both.

wewantflair 05-21-06 09:03 PM

Some of the people in this thread talk out of both sides of their mouths with such impunity that it's actually grotesque. On one hand, those people say that bootlegging is tolerable because art is being shared with the public. On the other hand, they are deliberately ignoring the wishes of artists (or owners of the art, such as publishers) due to their own senses of entitlement.

You are not entitled to a work of art simply because you want it. Publishers have as much right to art as the artists, since they in effect commission the art or purchase it after the fact. You do not have the right to take from these people simply because they are rich.

MovieExchange 05-21-06 09:29 PM


Originally Posted by wewantflair
Some of the people in this thread talk out of both sides of their mouths with such impunity that it's actually grotesque. On one hand, those people say that bootlegging is tolerable because art is being shared with the public. On the other hand, they are deliberately ignoring the wishes of artists (or owners of the art, such as publishers) due to their own senses of entitlement.

You are not entitled to a work of art simply because you want it. Publishers have as much right to art as the artists, since they in effect commission the art or purchase it after the fact. You do not have the right to take from these people simply because they are rich.

Wow, such sweeping generalizations. Tell me, did you actually bother to read what has been said in this thread?

toddly6666 05-21-06 10:02 PM

wow, everyone should be proud of our brave policemen stopping those money-stealing criminals for bootlegging SILVERHAWKS, SILVER SPOONS, TURKISH STAR WARS, RAMBO cartoon, and TRANSFORMERS HEADMASTERS cartoon DVDs...good job police! Hollywood will now gain back the money they have been losing thanks to the good work! Instead of putting these guys in prison, they should take away their comics, action figures, and kick them out of momma's house. That's more of a punishment for them than fines or jailtime....it's good to see our hard-earned tax money preventing the enjoyment of American pop culture events...

wewantflair 05-21-06 10:05 PM


Originally Posted by MovieExchange
Wow, such sweeping generalizations. Tell me, did you actually bother to read what has been said in this thread?

Yes. And I saw lots of people advocating bootlegging unreleased or OOP material.

nodeerforamonth 05-22-06 12:21 AM


Originally Posted by wewantflair
Yes. And I saw lots of people advocating bootlegging unreleased or OOP material.

I saw the opposite.

My opinion:

if it's something like da DaVinci code, there is no excuse. Book 'em.

If it's something obscure that is never going to come out officially anyways, then I don't see a problem with it.

TomOpus 05-22-06 12:38 AM


Originally Posted by nodeerforamonth
Well here in CA, laws aren't enforced (i.e. speeding, driving while distracted, coming over the border w/o permission, murder if you're a celebrity, etc...). There's no danger of this happening at the Comic-Con in July.

Please elaborate about how laws aren't enforced, because I'd like to disagree.

Also explain what happened to the bootleg table that was removed at last year's Comic-Con. Oh, they must've sold out in 3 hours and left, right?

renaldow 05-22-06 02:40 AM

The sellers knew what they were doing was illegal. They took the chance when they decided it was a good idea to sell the bootlegs. They got caught this time. End of story. Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

boe 05-22-06 03:00 AM


Originally Posted by TomOpus
Please elaborate about how laws aren't enforced, because I'd like to disagree.

I live in CA and would like to disagree as well. They enforce all the laws that generate revenue - e.g. parking, speeding, jay walking etc - OK none of the other ones - killing, beating (particularly if they are the ones doing it-I think it is in the job perks) theft, crossing borders... I've gotten two parking tickets and one speeding in CA but when I called to notify them that my car had been broken into and nearly $800 in stuff was stolen - they couldn't be bothered to show (Culver City Police - just want to say thanks again!). Somehow they managed to show within 5 minutes after I parked my car and he meter ran out. Amazingly they call every year to ask for money for the policeman's ball. Can't tell you how many times I've donated - I really can't :)


Just so you know I'm not against all cops- I worked with a great team back east. They only gave out tickets for gross violations - their budget was not in any way dependent on revenue generating activities such as parking, speeding, etc. Their only concern was crime such as theft and killing. The place is right on the border of a bad city so the cops have to deal with gangs etc. but they do a good job of keeping serious crime down by focusing their efforts on real criminal activities.

MovieExchange 05-22-06 09:13 AM


Originally Posted by wewantflair
Yes. And I saw lots of people advocating bootlegging unreleased or OOP material.

Aaaand where did you see people saying they were "entitled" to it?

Or are you just putting words in their mouths? I'm guessing you are.

Iron_Giant 05-22-06 11:22 AM


Originally Posted by calhoun07
The first time the original original trilogy will be on a home video format in quite a few years, actually, since Lucas told the public they would be released one last time then never again, back before the release of the 97 editions. And I doubt every fan will buy the new DVDs. Some will (gasp) actually be comfortable with the changes he made to the 2004 editions and continue living their lives.

Already have the orignal on VHS and the "Updated" version on DVD, so I will not be spending anymore money on the "Old" DVD.

wewantflair 05-22-06 11:36 AM


Originally Posted by MovieExchange
Aaaand where did you see people saying they were "entitled" to it?

Or are you just putting words in their mouths? I'm guessing you are.

Would you care to offer an alternative idea for doing buying bootlegs? "Because I want to" or "because the companies won't release it/them in R1" are both examples of feelings of entitlement.

Linn1 05-22-06 12:08 PM

They did nothing.
 
With bootleg outfits like Video Asia, and dozens more in actual stores and video stores. I mean with places like HK Flix selling hundreds of boots online, what did they do? They shut down a couple of vendors. That's it. This does NOTHING to stop bootlegging. To stop that, you need to crack down on ALL bootleggers, starting with the large outfits. Fans will still get the stuff they want by trading, but then the movies will go back to being something companies can actually sell. Right now, companies look at niche market titles and then look if they've been booted. If they've been booted, it's a near instant pass.

Billyspunk 05-22-06 12:09 PM

Does anyone know if dvdavenue.tv is a LEGIT company, meaning do they really have permission to sell unreleased tv shows? They seem to be fairly large and I was told they have been in business for 3 years, does the copyright owners know about them?

sracer 05-22-06 01:34 PM


Originally Posted by wewantflair
Would you care to offer an alternative idea for doing buying bootlegs? "Because I want to" or "because the companies won't release it/them in R1" are both examples of feelings of entitlement.

Because it is permissible? (At least a good case can be made for homegrown tapes/discs of TV shows that haven't been formally released by studios.)

wewantflair 05-22-06 03:56 PM

Permissibility is an opportunity, not a motive. We don't do things because they are permissible, because that would imply that we would do everything that was permissible, which is simply ludicrous on face value.

Peep 05-22-06 05:29 PM


Originally Posted by boe
I live in CA and would like to disagree as well. They enforce all the laws that generate revenue - e.g. parking, speeding, jay walking etc - OK none of the other ones - killing, beating (particularly if they are the ones doing it-I think it is in the job perks) theft, crossing borders... I've gotten two parking tickets and one speeding in CA but when I called to notify them that my car had been broken into and nearly $800 in stuff was stolen - they couldn't be bothered to show (Culver City Police - just want to say thanks again!). Somehow they managed to show within 5 minutes after I parked my car and he meter ran out.

I've lived in Los Angeles for about 10 years now and have never actually seen a police officer give out a parking ticket. True, they will ticket you for speeding and jay-walking.

TomOpus 05-22-06 07:37 PM


Originally Posted by Peep
I've lived in Los Angeles for about 10 years now and have never actually seen a police officer give out a parking ticket.

I've never seen someone murder another person... but I hear it happens from time to time. :D


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:39 AM.


Copyright © 2022 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.