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HD-DVD replacing DVD discussion [merge of a couple of threads - yet again]

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HD-DVD replacing DVD discussion [merge of a couple of threads - yet again]

Old 01-03-06, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DthRdrX
VHS was a lot closer quality wise to dvd than Dvd is to HD-dvd. This is fact.

Comparisons
Not necessarily. It depends on what one means by "quality". Numbers of pixels aren't the only factor at play.

I would define picture quality as "perceived resolution". By that definition I think a case could be made that going from a 300, or so, interlaced line, 4:3, VHS tape to a 16:9, anamorphically compressed, 480 progressive scanned line DVD, using a good line doubler, is more of a jump in "perceived resolution" than going from 480p to 720p or 1080i.

If pixel numbers are the only way you measure picture quality, how many are enough? 2 million? 10 million? A billion? Would a billion really be perceptibly better than 100 million at a typical display size? That's a 10x increase, after all.

Add to that the greatly improved 5.1 sound, the random access of DVD versus tapes, the extras found on DVDs, and so forth, and I would say that the step from VHS to DVD was greater than DVD to HD-DVD, pixel counts notwithstanding.

JMO.
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Old 01-03-06, 04:18 PM
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They eventually WILL stop making DVD players. That's fact. They will move on to HD.

I was speaking about the future.
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Old 01-03-06, 04:18 PM
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Well, the title of the thread was "are standard DVD's caput" - thats what I thought was being discussed.
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Old 01-03-06, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DaTimster
I think a lot of this is also depending on what *you*, as the consumer, want out of your movie watching experience.

Personally, I know that HD will probably be bigger and better. But for me, standard DVD right now is a great experience on its own and I will not dump my library just because something new is on the horizon.

I'm quite content with the way things are. Sure, they will change over time, but new players will be backwards compatible.
Good Stance IMO. Myself, I'll be buying movies like crazy, and buying most of the older TV stuff on dvd since it's cheaper.

I would expect the packaging to be exactly the same. First, why add more cost to new cases. Second, they are trying to do this like a simple rollover. Kinda like what Sony did with the Slim PS2. Eventually all that will be on the shelf will follow this pattern. DVD -- HD/DVD Hybrid -- HD.

As for the comment about taking years to get a lot of titles out, remember that the difference is that the last few years have seen a lot of HD transfers completed and ready to go, where dvd had to either settle for an older LD transfer or a wait time for the studio to get around to doing it. Almost all of the major releases the last 2-3 years are ready for HD-dvd.
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Old 01-03-06, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by chanster
Well, the title of the thread was "are standard DVD's caput" - thats what I thought was being discussed.
Sorry, I was reading that as being more of a response to the people looking forward to the formats as opposed to the subject at hand. I guess I was paying closer attention to the course the discussion took versus where it started.
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Old 01-03-06, 04:22 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
I agree it'll be more of a Laserdisc-style niche, but I bought my first LD player in 1984 and enjoyed the format for more than a decade, so I don't see that as necessarily being a bad thing.
And unlike laserdisc, there is NO bad side to an HD format. It will only improve on regular DVD monumentally. It will also reinvigorate my interest and appreciate for film as standard DVD's have become to commercialized and J6P at this point anyway. I would love to see it go back to a more mature, creative and interesting time (like with laserdiscs) when the movies were appreciated and respected.

So Adam and I will be enjoying our high quality and the rest of ya'll can come over and drool.
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Old 01-03-06, 04:22 PM
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Originally Posted by chanster
Well, the title of the thread was "are standard DVD's caput" - thats what I thought was being discussed.
Caput now? No way. It will be around for a while. The cheaper costs the industry is seeing now is quite beneficial to smaller or cheaper companies and whatnot.

"On along enough timeline everything dies though."
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Old 01-03-06, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
They eventually WILL stop making DVD players. That's fact. They will move on to HD.

I was speaking about the future.
I agree that eventually, they will stop making DVD players, and I agree that eventually, they will move on the some sort of high definition format. But the real question is will either of the HD formats on the horizon supplant DVD? I doubt it. I think those are going to be like laser discs -- available, but only purchased by the videophiles. I think the average consumer is going to stick with DVD and seize on whatever is the latest tehcnology in 2012 or so.
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Old 01-03-06, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
So Adam and I will be enjoying our high quality and the rest of ya'll can come over and drool.
In NYC? Nah, I bet my screen is bigger than your apartment .
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Old 01-03-06, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc


it amuses me that people only reserve HD for "special effects movies." As if they're the only kind that would benefit from HD's picture and sound quality.

I'm actually JUST as interested in the sound improvement as the picture.
Consider the number of important movies that aren't on DVD yet (African Queen for example). Consider how long it took certain movies to reach DVD (a decent transfer of Metropolis, for example). That this will happen automatically and overnight, especially considering you'd have to revisit old film elements, is a bit unrealistic. I hope Criterion has some nice stuff up their sleeve and you bet I'll be getting their high-def discs in case they go OOP in the future, but I don't think Blu-HD DVD will be the success that DVD was.
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Old 01-03-06, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by JasonF
I think the average consumer is going to stick with DVD and seize on whatever is the latest tehcnology in 2012 or so.
Let me give you a glimse of the future from 2012 (see username)

This is probably be the last physical format produced. The next step will be home servers where you will download movies straight to a large storage device in your home, which all your entertainment equipment will be hooked up to that server. This is the goal of both Microsoft and Sony - and they trying to get it stated with the Xbox 360 (streaming media from your computer) and PS3 (remote access to PS3 media over IP). By the time it becomes necessary for Ultra Definition or whatever they want to call it, we'll be downloading it from the Internet (no doubt with a DRM that requires DNA recognition to play).

Until then, I'll enjoy the best technology has to offer. And right now, thats Blu-Ray.
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Old 01-03-06, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by chanster
Widespread adoption of HD requires consumers to buy two pieces of equipment most people do not have at this moment - HDTVS and HD players. And even within HDTV's there is a question of which TVs should be bought for maximium compatibility...
Something I have been wondering about is whether the shift will also require a new surround receiver? Will the HD players output sound in a format that my current receiver will be able to decode? Even if so, will that mean I lose the benefits of improved sound on the new format?

If I have to buy a new player and a new receiver, that will slow things down for me. I also figure that the new HD formats may have bugs. Will blue lasers and closer tracks make HD discs finicky about dust? I plan to wait awhile and see how things shake out.

[back on topic] I figure that DVDs will stick around for years and expect DVD prices to continue to fall as HD is introduced. As others have said, it will be some time before most people have the hardware to take advantage of the new format.
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Old 01-03-06, 05:06 PM
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I have been d/ling HD teasers and what not with the 360 the past week. The Media server approach would be great. Any movie you want on their server from any studio, at a monthly fee.

The problem is is takes forever "now" just to download a 1-2 minute teaser. It's so far away for the mass market though it's not funny.
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Old 01-03-06, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by lizard
Something I have been wondering about is whether the shift will also require a new surround receiver? Will the HD players output sound in a format that my current receiver will be able to decode? Even if so, will that mean I lose the benefits of improved sound on the new format?

If I have to buy a new player and a new receiver, that will slow things down for me. I also figure that the new HD formats may have bugs. Will blue lasers and closer tracks make HD discs finicky about dust? I plan to wait awhile and see how things shake out.

[back on topic] I figure that DVDs will stick around for years and expect DVD prices to continue to fall as HD is introduced. As others have said, it will be some time before most people have the hardware to take advantage of the new format.
My understanding, from what we know, is the decoding is being set up so it will be done in the player itself. We'll have to wait and see though.
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Old 01-03-06, 05:12 PM
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Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
In 1997, I was freaking out because i was 19. I had about 40-50 laserdiscs which I had spent all my hard earned extra money on and I didn't believe that this shiny little disc would catch on. I used to say the exact same things that everyone else is saying about an HD format. It won't last. People won't care. BOY was I wrong.
You might be wrong again though, man...don't be so sure just because DVD took off.

I'm all for HD-DVD...I just will NOT buy another SW or LOTR set in my life!!
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Old 01-03-06, 05:19 PM
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Originally Posted by DRG
Until Wal-Mart starts selling $200 HDTVs and $60 HD-DVD players, I don't think standard DVDs will be obsolete.
There's a smart statement.
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Old 01-03-06, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by digitalfreaknyc
So you don't care about video or audio quality but you want it to be clear?

Yeah. That makes sense.
It makes perfect sense. I just meant that as long as it doesn't have glaring flaws like snow, lines rolling up and down the screen etc.

I would be fine with VHS quality picture, essentially, as I care about the movies not how good they look.

I got into DVD as they were cheap, and offered OAR on pretty much everything, were more durable than VHS (which degrade over viewings, and had lots of interesting extra features.

When HD DVD is as cheap as DVD (both players and software), and a format has won out, I'll buy a player and start buying all new releases in that format.

I'm just not going to be an early adopter and pay a premium to enjoy better picture and sound as I just don't care about those much. Nor will I rebuy many movies, just the SE ones where I do care a little more what they look like since they are mostly eye candy anyway.

You, and many others, care a ton about A/V quality. Myself and others just enjoy movies and don't care much about A/V quality. No need to be so elitist and defensive about it. I'm not rooting for HD DVD to fail by any means, it's an upgrade and I'll buy in eventually. I'm just not in any hurry since I'm about as far from an audio/videophile as anyone on this forum and am fine enjoying films on regular DVD on my 27" Wega for now.
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Old 01-03-06, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Hinkle
You, and many others, care a ton about A/V quality. Myself and others just enjoy movies and don't care much about A/V quality.
The two don't have to be mutually exclusive, though.
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Old 01-03-06, 06:25 PM
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Personally, I look forward to no layer changes, increased quality, and hopefully more content with the added space. If I had hundreds or thousands of DVDs I'd be wary of buying into a new format but luckily I don't. The positive for those that do have a high volume of DVDs is that you have an adequate quality version of the movie and can decide when the time is right if you feel a need to upgrade.

Am I in the minority hoping that HD DVDs are released in thin cases?
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Old 01-03-06, 06:39 PM
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I can't wait for HD DVD. I only hope I can afford it, relatively soon after the launch. I'm excited about the increased resolution but I'm even more excited by the prospect of having uncompressed audio to go along with it. Compressed audio is my least favorite aspect of DVDs, which is why I still regularly watch my LDs.
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Old 01-03-06, 06:48 PM
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don't get me wrong, i know the new medium will increase the viewing pleasures all around, but what i am concerned with is:

if there is a supreme HD-DVD version of my favorite movie "Die Hard", where all the extras of the 2-Disc Five Star were there and then some (new interviews, Bruce Willis commentary) and all on 1 disc in a regular sized DVD case, then why would I still want my standard 2-Discer? (bearing in mind i have all the HD components necessary to take advantage of the new medium)
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Old 01-03-06, 06:56 PM
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Originally Posted by cisman
I still buy DVD's all the time. I mean Dvd's still give great picture quality and sound. How much better can it get. I think HD will be reserved for those willing to buy it at first like any new technology and SEVERAL years down the line it might change.

I will hold on to my DVD's regardless and only upgrade the most important films if needed. You can still buy DVD/VCR combo systems today and we're already talking about the next thing after DVD so I wouldn't worry.

I do believe thought that unless they decide on one format it's going to flop. It's going to scare too many off. I know I won't even think about doing anything till they get that worked out.
You took the words right out of my mouth...and probably said it much smarter anyways!
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Old 01-03-06, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by lizard
Not necessarily. It depends on what one means by "quality". Numbers of pixels aren't the only factor at play.

I would define picture quality as "perceived resolution". By that definition I think a case could be made that going from a 300, or so, interlaced line, 4:3, VHS tape to a 16:9, anamorphically compressed, 480 progressive scanned line DVD, using a good line doubler, is more of a jump in "perceived resolution" than going from 480p to 720p or 1080i.

If pixel numbers are the only way you measure picture quality, how many are enough? 2 million? 10 million? A billion? Would a billion really be perceptibly better than 100 million at a typical display size? That's a 10x increase, after all.

Add to that the greatly improved 5.1 sound, the random access of DVD versus tapes, the extras found on DVDs, and so forth, and I would say that the step from VHS to DVD was greater than DVD to HD-DVD, pixel counts notwithstanding.

JMO.

Until they have a resolution matching 35 - 70mm film, yes the more pixels the better the PQ will be. Also, VHS and dvd look very similar with color. HD is a leap in a better direction. All of my D-VHS tapes look 100x better than their dvd counterparts in this regard.

Now, if we are going to throw line doublers out there, lets take a film stored as HD 1080p, take it to 4K, and compare it to a film stored on dvd at 480i, upscaled to 720p/1080i. Which would you rather watch at 1.5-2x seating distance?
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Old 01-03-06, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by scott1598
don't get me wrong, i know the new medium will increase the viewing pleasures all around, but what i am concerned with is:

if there is a supreme HD-DVD version of my favorite movie "Die Hard", where all the extras of the 2-Disc Five Star were there and then some (new interviews, Bruce Willis commentary) and all on 1 disc in a regular sized DVD case, then why would I still want my standard 2-Discer? (bearing in mind i have all the HD components necessary to take advantage of the new medium)
Hopefully Fox will remaster Die Hard before putting it out on BR. I have this in HD and while it's much better than the 5 star dvd, it could still be improved.
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Old 01-03-06, 07:21 PM
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Being someone who always wanted a laserdisc player, but jumped on DVD somewhat early in '97, I just don't see HD serving as a replacement of the format, but more like a high grade techno geek supplement, which has always been my perception of laserdisc. With a majority of the public hardly caring about the difference between widescreen or pan and scan, or sometimes rarely noting the difference in quality of watching something on tape or on DVD (this is from my bitter days of retail especially around holiday time) I just don't see HD taking off. In fact, I hardly see your average consumer knowing the difference between an HD-DVD disc or a regular old DVD. While many of the people around this forum and techno-philes might be all over a format that provides more space on one disc with no layer changes and higher resolution, I don't see your average customer, even those smarter than J6P, suddenly jumping onto this new technology.
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