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HD-DVD replacing DVD discussion [merge of a couple of threads - yet again]

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HD-DVD replacing DVD discussion [merge of a couple of threads - yet again]

Old 01-07-06, 09:37 AM
  #251  
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Jim
I think the majority of the snobbery and nearly ALL the misinformation is coming from people who are "opposed" to HD. Can't stop progress.
I have to disagree with this statement. For one, no one is "opposed" to HD. The people who you think are opposed just don't feel that it will grab hold of the market, what is wrong with that? You can argue all of the math, and statistics about the superiority of HD, but you have no idea what the economics of the market will be.

At present I think that it is very reasonable to believe that HD will have a hard time taking off when HD penetration is currently so low. Honestly, I know very few people with HDTVs and of the people that do have them, only my brother pays for HD programming (he is a huge videophile though). Under the current market setting it is MUCH more reasonable to believe that HD/Blu will have a difficult time succeeding than believing that enough households in america will make the switch to make it a success.

Finally, this forum is a VERY good indicator about the difficulty that HD will have. On this forum we have probably one of the biggest collection of Audio/Video nerds around, yet if you look at the majority of posts, most people are not planning on adopting HD, and don't have enough faith that it will succeed for quite some time (if ever). If the majority of A/V nerds don't have faith in a technologies viability, then how will J6P be convinced that he NEEDS to switch?

-Z-
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Old 01-07-06, 10:22 AM
  #252  
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Originally Posted by Josh Hinkle
So it's not snobbery by me, but rather just thinking HDTVs are a waste of money right now if you have no HD programming available.
Why?

Okay, looking at BestBuy.com, the largest TV they carry that isn't high-definition-capable is 32" with 4x3 dimensions. (I'm not counting 480p plasmas as part of this as those can take in HD input and display that material much better than a standard set.)

So your argument is that if someone wants to buy a new TV and plans on watching DVDs primarily, they should be stuck with a small, boxy television? That's ridiculous.

I'm in the camp that the display should accomodate the material, not the other way around.
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Old 01-07-06, 10:28 AM
  #253  
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I guess. I won't buy one until I have enough HD material available to me that I feel is worth it, or my 27" Wega craps out. Which ever comes first. Just not worth the money to me otherwise. And honestly, if it crapped out today, I'd just buy another 27" regular TV for the time being as I don't want an HDTV until I can afford one 50" or larger as the size upgrade is what I eventually want a new TV, much more so than the high definition.

So I guess it's worth the money since that's all you can get in a large TV these days thanks to the government meddling in the market and not letting the public decide if they want to upgrade to HDTV. It would be nice if both were available as I imagine large regular TVs would be pretty cheap right now with the HDTVs costing what they do.

Last edited by Josh Hinkle; 01-07-06 at 10:33 AM.
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Old 01-07-06, 10:54 AM
  #254  
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Originally Posted by Josh Hinkle
It would be nice if both were available as I imagine large regular TVs would be pretty cheap right now with the HDTVs costing what they do.
HDTVs are cheaper than you may think. For a less than I paid for a 36" SDTV five years ago, I can get a 52" HDTV. A 27" HDTV can be had for $400, and RCA's 52" HDTV (with all the inputs you need for Blu-Ray/HD-DVD, if you get an HDMI-to-DVI plug) is under a grand.
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Old 01-07-06, 11:03 AM
  #255  
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I have an HDTV, but only in the living room. I'm in no hurry to jump on board with HD-DVD as the broadcast HD programing hasn't exactly blown me away. (sorry, but as great as sports look in HD I have no problem watching them or anything else in SD) I think the chances of Blu-Ray having a major impact on DVD are slim. At least for the next few years.

For one if I buy a DVD I can watch it in any room in the house, on my laptop and its very easy to convert it to watch on my PDA and on my Play-Yan.

If I get a Blu-Ray player I can watch it in my living room and that is it. I doubt I will have the budget to put HDTVs all over the house not to mention Blu-Ray players. I just see no reason to even consider HD-DVD in 2006. I guess I just invested to much in DVD to want to switch.

As far as articles announcing the death of DVD, I remember reading many about the death of the CD ten years ago. CDs are doing pretty well for a dead format.

Last edited by darkside; 01-07-06 at 11:08 AM.
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Old 01-07-06, 11:29 AM
  #256  
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Originally Posted by joshd2012
Let me give you a glimse of the future from 2012 (see username)

This is probably be the last physical format produced. The next step will be home servers where you will download movies straight to a large storage device in your home, which all your entertainment equipment will be hooked up to that server. This is the goal of both Microsoft and Sony - and they trying to get it stated with the Xbox 360 (streaming media from your computer) and PS3 (remote access to PS3 media over IP). By the time it becomes necessary for Ultra Definition or whatever they want to call it, we'll be downloading it from the Internet (no doubt with a DRM that requires DNA recognition to play).
I don't think that a "physical format" will go away for a long, long time. If you pay for a movie download at $15, and you think the movie sucks, well - too bad for you. If you buy a DVD/HD-DVD/BLU-RAY Disc and you think the movie sucks, then you just sell it and get some of your money back.

Another thing with downloaded movies on a central server in your house - what if that thing crashes and burns? ALL your movies are gone. Potentially THOUSANDS of dollars in downloads down the drain. There are a lot of people, myself included, who aren't willing to take that risk.

I'll just hang on to my "physical" DVDs and HD-DVDs and if they stop making them I'll only download a movie if I know I like it.

DVD is going to stick around for quite a while. Hell, for all the talk about VHS going away you can still buy pre-recorded VHS tapes at Wal Mart. Not a lot of them, but they're still there.

The point that HD-DVD/Blu Ray won't take over until Wal Mart sells the players for around $60 is fairly accurate. When you can get a HDTV for $300 or $400 then people will start thinking about going HD-DVD, but only AFTER they've seen the difference between DVD and HDTV broadcasts. And even then DVD quality will still be "good enough" for a huge segment of the population.

This is going to be a 10-15 year transition. DVD is definitely not going to be "kaput" for a long time.

When I get my HDTV, and HD-DVD players get under $200 I'll buy in. Assuming the price of the movies isn't still $25 each. That's yet another factor in the lifespan of the DVD format - the price of the software. DVD movies are cheap, and the public LOVES that. If HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs are not so cheap the public will look at that factor as well, delaying the High Definition format takeover at the software level.

Last edited by B5Erik; 01-07-06 at 11:32 AM.
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Old 01-07-06, 12:17 PM
  #257  
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Originally Posted by B5Erik
I don't think that a "physical format" will go away for a long, long time. If you pay for a movie download at $15, and you think the movie sucks, well - too bad for you. If you buy a DVD/HD-DVD/BLU-RAY Disc and you think the movie sucks, then you just sell it and get some of your money back.

Another thing with downloaded movies on a central server in your house - what if that thing crashes and burns? ALL your movies are gone. Potentially THOUSANDS of dollars in downloads down the drain. There are a lot of people, myself included, who aren't willing to take that risk.

I'll just hang on to my "physical" DVDs and HD-DVDs and if they stop making them I'll only download a movie if I know I like it.
The announcement of the death of physical media ownership has continuously been made for the last 100 years. It is technodweeb's fantasy that will never come true. We've been enamoured with owning physical media ever since we progressed from cave paintings. It's not going to change.
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Old 01-07-06, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
HDTVs are cheaper than you may think. For a less than I paid for a 36" SDTV five years ago, I can get a 52" HDTV. A 27" HDTV can be had for $400, and RCA's 52" HDTV (with all the inputs you need for Blu-Ray/HD-DVD, if you get an HDMI-to-DVI plug) is under a grand.
Oh, I know there reasonably priced, I've just yet to find a decent 51" or larger HD set for Less than $900 (and those weren't great reviewed ones like RCA and Phillips).

I'll keep waiting until nice 50" plus DLP sets are under a grand before thinking about it seriously, and that will probably be a while. Kind of want to wait on the 1080p thing to shake out, if HD starts using that a lot, then I'll wait for 1080p DLP sets to be available under a grand, which will probably be even longer.
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Old 01-07-06, 01:12 PM
  #259  
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what i don't understand is...
how are there HD/Blu-Ray DVD titles being announced when the players for them haven't been officially, or at least not alot of selection for them is even on the horizon?
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Old 01-07-06, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by B5Erik
I don't think that a "physical format" will go away for a long, long time. If you pay for a movie download at $15, and you think the movie sucks, well - too bad for you. If you buy a DVD/HD-DVD/BLU-RAY Disc and you think the movie sucks, then you just sell it and get some of your money back.

Another thing with downloaded movies on a central server in your house - what if that thing crashes and burns? ALL your movies are gone. Potentially THOUSANDS of dollars in downloads down the drain. There are a lot of people, myself included, who aren't willing to take that risk.

I'll just hang on to my "physical" DVDs and HD-DVDs and if they stop making them I'll only download a movie if I know I like it.

DVD is going to stick around for quite a while. Hell, for all the talk about VHS going away you can still buy pre-recorded VHS tapes at Wal Mart. Not a lot of them, but they're still there.

The point that HD-DVD/Blu Ray won't take over until Wal Mart sells the players for around $60 is fairly accurate. When you can get a HDTV for $300 or $400 then people will start thinking about going HD-DVD, but only AFTER they've seen the difference between DVD and HDTV broadcasts. And even then DVD quality will still be "good enough" for a huge segment of the population.

This is going to be a 10-15 year transition. DVD is definitely not going to be "kaput" for a long time.

When I get my HDTV, and HD-DVD players get under $200 I'll buy in. Assuming the price of the movies isn't still $25 each. That's yet another factor in the lifespan of the DVD format - the price of the software. DVD movies are cheap, and the public LOVES that. If HD-DVDs and Blu-Ray discs are not so cheap the public will look at that factor as well, delaying the High Definition format takeover at the software level.
Every now and then there is a post that cuts through all the bullshit. Great post.

I feel the exact same way. I won't be buying in right away, but god bless those that do. They'll help me get the stuff I want for the price I want to pay. I salute you, early adopters!

I also agree that the media needs to come in priced similarly to current DVD prices. This is a very important factor.

I'd say a 10 year timetable is probably dead on for DVD to be in the same position VHS is in now. One of the most important things people are overlooking is the fact that the CPs will be pushing this HARD. They want a chance to sell us the movies over again and get back to a position where casual copying is too difficult.

Josh, what I think Adam is trying to say is if your TV shits the bed, you'll say you will go buy another SD TV. Why would you just not spring for the extra hundred and (to a point) future proof your purchase? You could replace the set with a comparably sized HD model without a huge jump in price.
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Old 01-07-06, 01:53 PM
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While I'm 50-50 on HD really taking off in the next few years, I can honestly say that Standard DVDs will NOT DIE. Of course, you're gonna have to rebuy LOTR and Star Wars many more times in your life. We all knew that. All they have to do is throw on a new documentary or find some new footage. The format it's on doesn't matter. DVDs are not going to die because so many movies are not gonna go to HD. Of course all new releases will and given the choice, you will purchase the HD Version of say Spiderman 3 over the SDVD version. But some of my favorite movies include "Very Bad Things" and "Bushwhacked" (both purchases for 5.50 at a bargain bin). I don't see the film companies wasting time on those. Those types of DVDs will be sold as SDVDs in the stores when our grandchildren (to those in their twenties ) go out and buy DVDs/HD-DVDs/BluRay. They have a pretty good transfer and good sound. If people didn't buy those on DVD, they sure as hell won't buy them on HD for (probably) a more expensive price. Don't throw away your old DVDs my friends, youre gonna be enjoying them for years to come!!
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Old 01-07-06, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Jim
WRONG! All films (save Pixar and a handful of others) are analog. Film is an analog format. If restored and mastered properly, ANY presentation shot on film will look better in HD. Without exception.

The same cannot be said of TV shows that are shot on tape. I am not sure if DS was shot on tape or film, but I would tend to believe tape.
OK, when I talking analog, I was thinking of tape (which the guy I was responding to seemed to focusing on). My bad. Of course I know that hi-def can be made from film masters -- that's how we get all the beautiful HD transfers of older movies (and even tv shows that were shot and saved on film instead of tape). This is why I'm hesitant to try to enter these discussions and answer a question. If you make a mistep you get jumped on (with capitals and exclamation points) by the "experts".
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Old 01-07-06, 02:22 PM
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Hd Dvd

I found the solution to HD - buy a used set! I got a Sony XBR 34" CRT for $600 on ebay and it looks fantastic.

And HD broadcast films are great to watch. But I have to admit the difference is not as huge as VHS to DVD, especially with a good DVD player. I will not replace my (small) collection, but I'm sure that favorite films will have to be upgraded once the formats stabilize and the price of HD DVD players drops.

And anyone who hasn't been blown away by broadcast HD has a lousy HD set - on my Sony, it's breathtaking. Everyone who sees it is stunned.
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Old 01-07-06, 04:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Josh Hinkle
Hey, I don't even have an HDTV and no plans to buy one. I'm waiting for costs to come way down.

And yes Cable and satellite is expensive, but it's worth more than DVDs to more as I like watching sports much more than movies and need the ESPN channels and good reception on all the networks (which is hard to get with an internal antenna even in the city in my experience.

So it's not snobbery by me, but rather just thinking HDTVs are a waste of money right now if you have no HD programming available. I don't think it's worth the current high costs (at least for large sets) to just watch upconverted DVDs on.

I'll wait until costs drop, more programming is available and an HD DVD format has won out before buyign an HDTV.
Makes sense. In my situation it was worth it to take the HDTV plunge, despite knowing that prices are dropping steadily. My reasons:
1) Much larger screen size (I had been watching DVDs on a 27 inch TV) = more theater-like experience.
2) 16:9 widescreen format = more theater-like experience.
3) Upscaled DVD playback gives a much better PQ versus a standard TV = more theater-like experience.

(Don't sell that third point short, a good upscaler can make a stunning difference in PQ.)

For me, HD-DVD/Blue-ray is icing on the cake. But I won't be an early adopter for reasons of cost, format wars, and fear of bugs in the technology.

Save up the cost of cable/satellite for a few years and one can buy a HDTV.
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Old 01-07-06, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Jim
Josh, what I think Adam is trying to say is if your TV shits the bed, you'll say you will go buy another SD TV. Why would you just not spring for the extra hundred and (to a point) future proof your purchase? You could replace the set with a comparably sized HD model without a huge jump in price.
A decent 27-30" inch HDTV, from models I've looked at are around $700-800. I exclude non-top brands. Where as you can get a decent 27" regular on par with the qualitiy of my Wega for about $300.

That's a huge difference to me on my budge. And it's not really future proofed for me anyway as I want a BIG hdtv, not a small one.
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Old 01-07-06, 06:13 PM
  #266  
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Originally Posted by brainee
OK, when I talking analog, I was thinking of tape (which the guy I was responding to seemed to focusing on). My bad. Of course I know that hi-def can be made from film masters -- that's how we get all the beautiful HD transfers of older movies (and even tv shows that were shot and saved on film instead of tape). This is why I'm hesitant to try to enter these discussions and answer a question. If you make a mistep you get jumped on (with capitals and exclamation points) by the "experts".
I apologize. This is a huge misconception that comes up every three or four days. Some people pick 2000 as the magic year where films will benefit from HD.

You are right (I think) about shows shot on tape. They will look as good as they can but no where near as good as film transferred.
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Old 01-07-06, 06:47 PM
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And HD broadcast films are great to watch
Yup...and get ready....it's War of the Worlds('05) tonight on HDPPV!!

Should look awesome.
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Old 01-07-06, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by marknyc
And anyone who hasn't been blown away by broadcast HD has a lousy HD set - on my Sony, it's breathtaking. Everyone who sees it is stunned.
I have an excellent Sony HDTV that is properly calibrated and HD does look great on it. I'm not saying you can't see a difference. However, its not the draw dropping, life changing experience everyone makes it out to be. Sporting events do take the best advantage of it, but I have had zero problems watching shows and sporting events on my old Sony Wega SDTV when someone wants to watch something different on the HDTV. Maybe if I could afford a 100" HDTV I would finally have the religious experience many others are having, but on my 46" screen its just not that big of a deal. The fact my HDTV is widescreen is the thing I like the most.
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Old 01-08-06, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Qui Gon Jim
WRONG! All films (save Pixar and a handful of others) are analog. Film is an analog format. If restored and mastered properly, ANY presentation shot on film will look better in HD. Without exception.

The same cannot be said of TV shows that are shot on tape. I am not sure if DS was shot on tape or film, but I would tend to believe tape.
Yes, DARK SHADOWS was definitely shot on videotape. So if I am to understand correctly then, that series on DVD is as good as it can ever look unless someone wanted to spend untold hours doing some special frame by frame upgrading with some sort of advanced computer editing technology (which would never happen considering the thousands of hours from a daily series like that). What about other classic TV shows from the 1950's and 60's? Say for example... I LOVE LUCY or THE TWILIGHT ZONE (the non-videotaped episodes)???

Also, we just recently purchased the new remastered release of 50's WAR OF THE WORLDS DVD which is a movie my husband really loves and has had me watch twice in the last decade on VHS. Perhaps I never noticed before but I couldn't help but notice now...there are strings all over the spaceships! My husband confirmed that he thought they weren't very visible before so will this be even more noticeable when this movie is upgraded again to HD format? Will this make a noticeable (and distracting) effect on all old films which used certain types of special effects?
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Old 01-08-06, 08:42 AM
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how are there HD/Blu-Ray DVD titles being announced when the players for them haven't been officially, or at least not alot of selection for them is even on the horizon?
It happens all the time, really. People announced D-VHS titles when there were barely any D-VHS players on the horizon. Its really just a way to stake a claim and claim that the format has support when the actual players come out ....
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Old 01-08-06, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimiakane
Will this make a noticeable (and distracting) effect on all old films which used certain types of special effects?
It may. But you aren't seeing anything that isn't present in the original film print. The problem with very old films like this is the original filmmakers are not always involved in the restoration and they may remove grain from the film that was intentional to hide SFX. A movie can be over-restored.
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Old 01-08-06, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Kimiakane
Yes, DARK SHADOWS was definitely shot on videotape. So if I am to understand correctly then, that series on DVD is as good as it can ever look unless someone wanted to spend untold hours doing some special frame by frame upgrading with some sort of advanced computer editing technology (which would never happen considering the thousands of hours from a daily series like that). What about other classic TV shows from the 1950's and 60's? Say for example... I LOVE LUCY or THE TWILIGHT ZONE (the non-videotaped episodes)???

Also, we just recently purchased the new remastered release of 50's WAR OF THE WORLDS DVD which is a movie my husband really loves and has had me watch twice in the last decade on VHS. Perhaps I never noticed before but I couldn't help but notice now...there are strings all over the spaceships! My husband confirmed that he thought they weren't very visible before so will this be even more noticeable when this movie is upgraded again to HD format? Will this make a noticeable (and distracting) effect on all old films which used certain types of special effects?

yes, in those days directors counted on the poor quality of film to hide special effects like strings
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Old 01-08-06, 11:29 AM
  #273  
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Why I will agree film quality is very high quality and current DVD can not match its resolution I still disagree that every old film will be better in HD. Examples above and the fact many old films are in bad condition will prevent an HD version from being superior to what is currently available. I just don't see them spending the time and money to do a proper HD master on the bulk of the classic film catalog. I have no doubt that A list films in great condition like Gone With the Wind and Lawrence of Arabia will be amazing in HD-DVD, but I really doubt something like King Kong is going to look much better than it currently does on DVD. Not to mention the more obscure films that would not be worth the cost to restore to the level of an HD tranfer.
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Old 01-09-06, 06:51 AM
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No one is saying every old film WILL look better, but the potential does exist. As you point out, it is all about economics. King Kong is not a great example, because I am sure the restoration was done to a much higher resolution than DVD or probably HD.
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Old 01-09-06, 12:34 PM
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Blue-Ray sucks. It's prone to error, is way to expensive (players and content), market does not want this. It will be dead in a year.
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