When are the Full-Screen DVD buyers going to start screaming they were swindled?
11-08-05, 02:35 PM
#26
DVD Talk Special Edition
Originally Posted by Mopower
How can people watch stretched 4:3 TV on a widescreen TV? It's retarded. Yet most people don't see a difference. I don't get it. The image looks fucked up to me. But they just sit their happily and never know the difference. My friend is like this. I told him the picture is fucked up and that the image is squashed but he doesn't see it. It's like he's blind to it.
In fact, it's already started!
11-08-05, 02:45 PM
#28
DVD Talk Legend
Do you think they'll be smart enough to realize the problem they created for themselves?
Once and for all people buy what they want! If they want content to fill their entire screen then so be it. Feature film is a different size and if they choose to not educate themselves then they cannot blame anyone but themselves.
11-08-05, 02:47 PM
#29
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by Brian Shannon
No.
Once and for all people buy what they want! If they want content to fill their entire screen then so be it. Feature film is a different size and if they choose to not educate themselves then they cannot blame anyone but themselves.
Once and for all people buy what they want! If they want content to fill their entire screen then so be it. Feature film is a different size and if they choose to not educate themselves then they cannot blame anyone but themselves.
Besides, so long as OAR is available, we should all coexist peacefully.
11-08-05, 02:50 PM
#31
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11-08-05, 03:34 PM
#32
DVD Talk Special Edition
I'll just be glad when there are enough widescreen sets in homes that the term 'fullscreen' is retired. I've always thought the term was misleading & implies that people will see more by the word 'full'. I think it should be replaced with squarescreen.
But I doubt people will even notice the difference. I've heard about people buying fullscreen DVD's when they own a 16x9 set often enough that stupidity no longer surprises me.
But I doubt people will even notice the difference. I've heard about people buying fullscreen DVD's when they own a 16x9 set often enough that stupidity no longer surprises me.
11-08-05, 03:37 PM
#33
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Originally Posted by scottall
But they make me so mad with their personal choices. 
11-08-05, 03:38 PM
#34
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Originally Posted by RocShemp
I've seen this happen a lot. If you point it out they give you a look of "what the hell are you talking about?" and just ignore you.
I also remember when DVD players first came out, a friend of mine had his set to 16:9 on his 4:3 TV and he didn't notice something was wrong when everyone was stretched out. I asked him why he had it like that and he didn't know what I was talking about. When I showed him how to set it properly he was upset that suddenly his movies "looked smaller" and that I made the black bars bigger.
Ahh, the first fantasy film to have bullet-time effects set to crappy heavy metal music. - DRG (regarding Uwe Boll's Dungeon Siege)
I also remember when DVD players first came out, a friend of mine had his set to 16:9 on his 4:3 TV and he didn't notice something was wrong when everyone was stretched out. I asked him why he had it like that and he didn't know what I was talking about. When I showed him how to set it properly he was upset that suddenly his movies "looked smaller" and that I made the black bars bigger.
Ahh, the first fantasy film to have bullet-time effects set to crappy heavy metal music. - DRG (regarding Uwe Boll's Dungeon Siege)
11-08-05, 03:59 PM
#35
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Originally Posted by djtoell
Never. They'll just use one of the stretching modes to fill the screen. They didn't care about how the image looked before as far as cropping and even stretching (a common method employed in the creation of P&S transfers), and they won't care about the image being stretched in the future. All the talk I've heard over the years about impending anger once the switch to 16x9 sets is made is never to happen, I'd wager.
DJ
DJ
11-08-05, 04:04 PM
#36
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Originally Posted by RocShemp
Plus I bet fullscreen will still exist for those that complain about tiny black bars in 2.40:1 films. They'll either open the matte to 1.78:1 or crop the films to 1.78:1 and those that hate black bars wont care so long as their whole screen is filled.
11-08-05, 04:07 PM
#37
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
Well if it makes you feel any better,I have a good story to tell.
Last night for speech class I had to give an 'informative speech' on a topic of my choice. So I decided to do one on O.A.R. and had a nice 10 minute roughly speech planned out. Where I would cover all the issues(including WS tvs won't solve the 'black bar' issue). And I did make sure to chime in that not all films are made in widescreen. Thus O.A.R. of a film(whatever its ratio) is how they should be viewed. I also had aton of other info as well,including that on soft/hard matting and so forth. And I had a stills demo using Pump Up The Volume for use if/when I discussed that.
But then I found out the speech could only be a maximum of 5 minutes long. So gone went 99% of my speech and I did the best I could on the spot.
I opened it with asking the class if anyone there hates widescreen and wonders what is the point? The class all mouthed 'yes' and this hot girl in the front row said sternly "Yes I hate widescreen!". I did mention that this is what my speech would be about. And that many dvds are released today in 'wide' and 'full' screen versions. And I pointed out the 'FS' version in this case is wrongly labeled and you are not getting the original image as intended. You may think you are,but are wrong. I pointed out how film while entertainment is also art,and alot of work goes into telling the story visually. From the position of the charecters,objects,everything all plays a role in the film. And once you begin to destroy the original image,you lose part of the story in the processs.
I briefly went over birth of film,ratio they were made in,birth of tv in the 'square' ratio. birth of WS to lure people back into theaters. Then asked the class how they fit a rectangle(black board as visual example) into a square(projection screen as example). Thats when I brought up home video/tv broadcasts severely cropping the films and pan & scaning them.
This is where I then put on a sequence in pan & scan from The Outsiders to demonstrate. I used the 'drive in' sequence and told them to watch the screen closely,and pointed out the P&S moments. Then after stopping the disc and flipping it over to the widescreen side..and getting back to the sequence. I asked "Did it look like you were too close to there faces,like your eye was right against the screen?" and the hot girl said "yes". The rest of the class was fairly quiet and it did seem like they were 'tense' and didn't want to hear what I had to say. But I made sure not to make fun of P&S lovers or anything like that,and kept it just informative and easy to understand.
Durring the widescreen version of the sequence. I pointed out the various things missing from the P&S version(such as Kevin Dillion lighting his cigarette and falling out of his seat,his mannerisms...other charecters all in the same shot). And I mentioned how the camera is not 'paning' at all,every shot in the scene is from one still camera angle.
For example,not only is Dillions head fully onscreen now(with still an inch or so of side imagery on the left side of the screen),but Diane Lanes head is also fully onscreen and you can see C Thomas Howell in the very same shot behind her/next to Dillion.
Meanwhile in the P&S version of this shot,Dillions head is largely offscreen. You see the bare edges of the right side of his face,which constantly dips out of the shot. Meanwhile you lose Howell and have Lanes head slightly cropped as well.
I then ended the speech with that I hope they at least learn to not fear the 'black bars' and widescreen too much. And educate them on the basics of O.A.R. And that all films whether shot in Academy Ratio or the various wide ratios,should be presented in their O.A.R.
There was a big round of applause,though that is still usual for the class. Since we are supposed to clap after every speech. But I will admit,it was a more 'lively' round of applause than the last few applauses where people were going through the motion.
And here is where the good thing happens. After class,the hot girl(who I never talked to before!) said "Great speech,well done!" and I thanked her and congratulated hers on her speech as well. I thought that would be the end of it and I would head to my car(in the opposite direction). But then she continued and seemed really excited,smiling,enthusiastic. And raved "That was amazing,I never realized how much could be missing from a film in P&S!"..and then she went on,asked questions about how I knew this stuff,was I a big movie fan and so forth. I said yes and mentioned I did have to leave alot out because of the limted time,but I did the best I could. She said there was no problem,since she at least has her eyes opened and agreed films should be presented in their O.A.R. and mentioned how "Until dvd,no one really knew about this,so it's good I think to become aware of this stuff". We chatted as we walked towards her car. Then she said she'd see me next week...and I had to walk all the way across campus towards my car.
Last night for speech class I had to give an 'informative speech' on a topic of my choice. So I decided to do one on O.A.R. and had a nice 10 minute roughly speech planned out. Where I would cover all the issues(including WS tvs won't solve the 'black bar' issue). And I did make sure to chime in that not all films are made in widescreen. Thus O.A.R. of a film(whatever its ratio) is how they should be viewed. I also had aton of other info as well,including that on soft/hard matting and so forth. And I had a stills demo using Pump Up The Volume for use if/when I discussed that.
But then I found out the speech could only be a maximum of 5 minutes long. So gone went 99% of my speech and I did the best I could on the spot.
I opened it with asking the class if anyone there hates widescreen and wonders what is the point? The class all mouthed 'yes' and this hot girl in the front row said sternly "Yes I hate widescreen!". I did mention that this is what my speech would be about. And that many dvds are released today in 'wide' and 'full' screen versions. And I pointed out the 'FS' version in this case is wrongly labeled and you are not getting the original image as intended. You may think you are,but are wrong. I pointed out how film while entertainment is also art,and alot of work goes into telling the story visually. From the position of the charecters,objects,everything all plays a role in the film. And once you begin to destroy the original image,you lose part of the story in the processs.
I briefly went over birth of film,ratio they were made in,birth of tv in the 'square' ratio. birth of WS to lure people back into theaters. Then asked the class how they fit a rectangle(black board as visual example) into a square(projection screen as example). Thats when I brought up home video/tv broadcasts severely cropping the films and pan & scaning them.
This is where I then put on a sequence in pan & scan from The Outsiders to demonstrate. I used the 'drive in' sequence and told them to watch the screen closely,and pointed out the P&S moments. Then after stopping the disc and flipping it over to the widescreen side..and getting back to the sequence. I asked "Did it look like you were too close to there faces,like your eye was right against the screen?" and the hot girl said "yes". The rest of the class was fairly quiet and it did seem like they were 'tense' and didn't want to hear what I had to say. But I made sure not to make fun of P&S lovers or anything like that,and kept it just informative and easy to understand.
Durring the widescreen version of the sequence. I pointed out the various things missing from the P&S version(such as Kevin Dillion lighting his cigarette and falling out of his seat,his mannerisms...other charecters all in the same shot). And I mentioned how the camera is not 'paning' at all,every shot in the scene is from one still camera angle.
For example,not only is Dillions head fully onscreen now(with still an inch or so of side imagery on the left side of the screen),but Diane Lanes head is also fully onscreen and you can see C Thomas Howell in the very same shot behind her/next to Dillion.
Meanwhile in the P&S version of this shot,Dillions head is largely offscreen. You see the bare edges of the right side of his face,which constantly dips out of the shot. Meanwhile you lose Howell and have Lanes head slightly cropped as well.
I then ended the speech with that I hope they at least learn to not fear the 'black bars' and widescreen too much. And educate them on the basics of O.A.R. And that all films whether shot in Academy Ratio or the various wide ratios,should be presented in their O.A.R.
There was a big round of applause,though that is still usual for the class. Since we are supposed to clap after every speech. But I will admit,it was a more 'lively' round of applause than the last few applauses where people were going through the motion.
And here is where the good thing happens. After class,the hot girl(who I never talked to before!) said "Great speech,well done!" and I thanked her and congratulated hers on her speech as well. I thought that would be the end of it and I would head to my car(in the opposite direction). But then she continued and seemed really excited,smiling,enthusiastic. And raved "That was amazing,I never realized how much could be missing from a film in P&S!"..and then she went on,asked questions about how I knew this stuff,was I a big movie fan and so forth. I said yes and mentioned I did have to leave alot out because of the limted time,but I did the best I could. She said there was no problem,since she at least has her eyes opened and agreed films should be presented in their O.A.R. and mentioned how "Until dvd,no one really knew about this,so it's good I think to become aware of this stuff". We chatted as we walked towards her car. Then she said she'd see me next week...and I had to walk all the way across campus towards my car.
11-08-05, 05:05 PM
#38
DVD Talk Hero
Originally Posted by Mopower
How can people watch stretched 4:3 TV on a widescreen TV? It's retarded. Yet most people don't see a difference. I don't get it. The image looks fucked up to me. But they just sit their happily and never know the difference. My friend is like this. I told him the picture is fucked up and that the image is squashed but he doesn't see it. It's like he's blind to it.
I'd say about 90% of widescreen tv owners stretch their 4:3 image to fill up their screen.
And it's not just dumb joe-6-pack types either - a good friend of mine who is a documentarian and an editor, and has worked on many TV shows that you may have seen, stretches out everything he watches at home on his widescreen TV, even if he notices, he just doesn't care - he'd rather have a filled screen - and this is a "knowledgeable" person.
11-08-05, 05:14 PM
#39
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by Mopower
How can people watch stretched 4:3 TV on a widescreen TV? It's retarded. Yet most people don't see a difference. I don't get it. The image looks fucked up to me. But they just sit their happily and never know the difference. My friend is like this. I told him the picture is fucked up and that the image is squashed but he doesn't see it. It's like he's blind to it.
...because if the Joe six-packs of the world are happying watching OAR fullscreen videos stretched, then they won't complain about the grey bars and there won't be any fear of cropping 4:3 material to fit 16:9 sets.
Think of the BIG picture. (pun intended)
Originally Posted by Groucho
You guys be careful. Patting yourself on the back so much can give you whiplash.
11-08-05, 05:20 PM
#40
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Originally Posted by Julie Walker
Last night for speech class I had to give an 'informative speech' on a topic of my choice. So I decided to do one on O.A.R. and had a nice 10 minute roughly speech planned out. But then I found out the speech could only be a maximum of 5 minutes long. So gone went 99% of my speech
11-08-05, 05:22 PM
#41
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I've already known a few people with expensive HT setups that have just stretched or zoomed the material to fill their entire screen. I see it all the time on the plane with WS portable players, too. It's really obvious to me that it's a FF/P&S movie that's being stretched, but people never seem to notice the difference.
I suppose the good thing about this is now the studios can just phase out FF/P&S completely. We OAR folks get what we want and the "no black bars!!" people can just stretch and zoom their DVDs until they fill all of the screen. Let's stop producing the FF stuff immediately!
I suppose the good thing about this is now the studios can just phase out FF/P&S completely. We OAR folks get what we want and the "no black bars!!" people can just stretch and zoom their DVDs until they fill all of the screen. Let's stop producing the FF stuff immediately!
11-08-05, 05:58 PM
#42
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I always get people comming in now saing that they just bought so-so and so tv. I do the.. is it widescreen? They say yes... then ask for the full-screen release of so-and-so DVD.
Dvd's and tv's need instructions or something!
Dvd's and tv's need instructions or something!
11-08-05, 06:41 PM
#43
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Originally Posted by Mopower
How can people watch stretched 4:3 TV on a widescreen TV? It's retarded. Yet most people don't see a difference. I don't get it. The image looks fucked up to me. But they just sit their happily and never know the difference. My friend is like this. I told him the picture is fucked up and that the image is squashed but he doesn't see it. It's like he's blind to it.
Your experience is so close to my own that I thought for a moment that I had posted your message. The only difference is a neighbor instead of a friend. His ignorance is mind boggling, I would get more satisfaction talking to a fence post.
11-08-05, 08:25 PM
#44
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
Well, I've already felt swindled and cheated by the recent trend of "trying to please everyone all the time" by butchering 1.33:1 OAR films and TV material to 1.78:1. Let's not get too fervent in our widescreen glory and not properly respect 1.33:1 OAR material. Agreed 90% of the hiatus is the opposite problem, and rightly so, but the first 10% of any 'trend' sets the dangerous precident.
Hopefully in 5 years we will not have a 'reverse' widescreen problem when 16:9 screens are all that is available to purchase. There rightly should always be a place for our historic pre-1953 1.33:1 heritage. And, all TV series' prior to 2000(?) were filmed in venerable 1.33, right???
Hopefully in 5 years we will not have a 'reverse' widescreen problem when 16:9 screens are all that is available to purchase. There rightly should always be a place for our historic pre-1953 1.33:1 heritage. And, all TV series' prior to 2000(?) were filmed in venerable 1.33, right???
11-08-05, 08:32 PM
#45
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Originally Posted by rich-y
When are the Full-Screen DVD buyers going to start screaming they were swindled?
In other words, never.
Give it a rest. Full screen DVD buyers were not swindled. Neither were you.
The real crime is always people who insist on trying to force-feed their own will upon others.
-Bruce
(Pssst... wanna buy my widescreen version of Citizen Kane? You know that it is better, 'cuz its got 'dem there bars at the top and bottom...)
Last edited by BSpielbauer; 11-08-05 at 08:37 PM.
11-08-05, 10:27 PM
#46
DVD Talk Ultimate Edition
BS,open matte films are not 'swindles' in terms of composition. Since 99% of films shot in the open matte format are intended to be viewed matted. By filming in open matte,it makes P&S/cropping less of an issue in regards to loss of vital picture information.
Also plenty of open matte films reveal visual mistakes for example....
Friday the 13th part 6,reveals the mat that the three headless dummies fall onto after being decapitated.
F13th part 8 reveals the sprinkler above Jasons head simulating a heavy rain storm outside the ship.
A Fish Called Wanda,where Kevin Kline is supposed to be walking around fully nude and runs into a startled family. In the open matte version you can see he is wearing underwear,which ruins the gag.
Happiness reveals a very obvious boom mike hanging in the shot durring the scene where the cops come to the pedophiles house to question him. Plenty of other films(especially 70's drive in/expoitation/low budget films) reveal boom mikes dangling in the shot when unmatted.
All these things would be covered up in the matted version,making the matted version the correct way to view the film.
The only films that while they were shown matted in theaters that play better in their full 1:33:1 ratio are a few films for example. Where the director was unaware of matting and filmed in 1:33:1 only to see the image severely cropped in theaters. Thus home video releases were released unmatted.
These include early John Waters films(Pink Flamingos and Female Trouble..sadly only available cropped badly on dvd). Frank Henonlotters Basket Case. George Romers Martin(unfortunately the latest dvd gives us a severely cropped transfer only..the old AB release unmatted was Romeros prefered version). And there may be a small chance that Night of the Living Dead was shown matted in theaters,but all home video releases are in 1:33:1. It would look terrible cropped,that is for sure.
Also plenty of open matte films reveal visual mistakes for example....
Friday the 13th part 6,reveals the mat that the three headless dummies fall onto after being decapitated.
F13th part 8 reveals the sprinkler above Jasons head simulating a heavy rain storm outside the ship.
A Fish Called Wanda,where Kevin Kline is supposed to be walking around fully nude and runs into a startled family. In the open matte version you can see he is wearing underwear,which ruins the gag.
Happiness reveals a very obvious boom mike hanging in the shot durring the scene where the cops come to the pedophiles house to question him. Plenty of other films(especially 70's drive in/expoitation/low budget films) reveal boom mikes dangling in the shot when unmatted.
All these things would be covered up in the matted version,making the matted version the correct way to view the film.
The only films that while they were shown matted in theaters that play better in their full 1:33:1 ratio are a few films for example. Where the director was unaware of matting and filmed in 1:33:1 only to see the image severely cropped in theaters. Thus home video releases were released unmatted.
These include early John Waters films(Pink Flamingos and Female Trouble..sadly only available cropped badly on dvd). Frank Henonlotters Basket Case. George Romers Martin(unfortunately the latest dvd gives us a severely cropped transfer only..the old AB release unmatted was Romeros prefered version). And there may be a small chance that Night of the Living Dead was shown matted in theaters,but all home video releases are in 1:33:1. It would look terrible cropped,that is for sure.
11-08-05, 10:33 PM
#47
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Originally Posted by SkullOrchard
Well, at least it wasn't a math class...because you suck at fractions.
11-09-05, 04:14 AM
#49
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The funniest open-matte gaffe is from Pee-Wee's big adventure when he is pulling the chain out of the box on his bike. You can see the "endless" supply of chain being fed through from the bottom.
11-09-05, 04:31 AM
#50
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
Originally Posted by MEJHarrison
I don't really understand all this concern for what others choose to buy. I never see people worrying about other people buying Levis, Hondas, Pepsi, generic drugs, or any other product. So why do we care so much about their DVDs. 
-JP