A few post up DVDJosh points out that it will be down-rezed for movie playback.

I saw his reply after I made my reply. I assumed that would be the case.

Another reason this HDMI/DVI decision is stupid is because it makes the market scared of further future obsolescence. Switching from VHS to DVD and SDTV to HDTV represented a major investment for the average consumer. The average joe who dropped several grand on a new HDTV and probably several more upgrading their movie library and switching over to DVD from VHS was trusting that they would not have to do it again for a long time. They made the leap trusting that it would not be a yearly game of hop-scotch from there, but rather a revolution with some degree of longevity in mind. They've been repeatedly told not to sweat HD-DVD, that it will only mean the purchase of a new player and that their DVD library will be backwards compatible so no need to sweat that one either. Now you tell them, "sorry, you have to go drop a few more grand on another HDTV since the one you bought is no longer viable." Maybe after that it's "we lied about the backwards compatibilty aspect for standard DVD's too so you can look forward to replacing 500+ movies"...or "now you need a new converter that can handle 1080p since we've decided to adopt that instead"...or when this latest round of copy-protection fails because some 15-year-old hacker kid in the Netherlands makes short work of it, maybe "we lied about the longevity of your new new HDTV with HDMI inputs - now we're adopting something else to replace that." Point being: Pulling the carpet out from under the public like this will only make them hostile and skeptical. They'll be dubious of the entire format after that, and with two competing formats vying for acceptance it will become another SACD/DVD-A situation for sure. Maybe it will take off after a few years go by without any other major disruptions, but I don't think you're going to see any kind of mass acceptance out of the gate like you did with other past technology "revolutions": DVD, CD, VHS, Cable, Audio Cassettes, Color TV's, etc., etc.

I couldn't figure out what you meant - is it inexcusable that there are still TVs made without HDMI or that HDMI is the only listed output on HD players? (you can never have too much water in a nuclear reactor...)

On a seperate note, the article I read said Toshiba would only support HDMI and other digital interfaces. So they might have DVI as well - although I really would prefer blu-ray to win at this point.

OK, now I'm getting confused. My two year old Sony has a DVI-HDTV input that can accomodate a copy-protected digital connection(HDCP), with seperate R/L audio connections. It was my understanding that DVI-HDMI input came along and replaced the connection I have and if I want to view hi-def I need to use some form of adapter. Correct?

It is inexcusable that they are selling TV sets that may not work with upcoming players. While someone that does their research should know what to look for, those that don't, won't, and they'll end up being screwed in the end.

rw2516, it is my understanding that if your DVI connector supports HDCP (not all do) then all you need is a DVI to HDMI cable to hook up to your set. Which highlights yet another problem: not all DVI connections support HDCP which means they won't work either.

Bottom line is that the HW manufacturers should have got their shit together before the first HD set showed up in a showroom. The balls it will take to tell the guy who dropped 8Gs on a plasma that his set is "obsolete" within 5 years of manufacture is mindboggling.

My TV has DVI only but I'm pretty sure that it will be able to handle the new HD/Blu-Ray systems.

They still sold B&W TVs even after Color had been available for many many years so I guess it is up to the consumer to decide what they want. But I do agree that all systems including my TV should have had an HDMI interface. Although it might be an excuse for me to upgrade to a set that displays 1080p instead of my pitiful 1080i :)

I don't recall them selling color sets that wouldn't allow viewers to watch things in color. Had VHS been introduced in a way that required a relatively large part of the market to buy a new television in order to watch it in color, for example, it might well have been more difficult for the format to really catch on.

Of course, it's not exactly the same since most people are probably still in the camp that's going to need a new television in order to take advantage of HD anyway. When VHS (or even DVD) was introduced, few people were having to buy a new television to adopt the new technology.

It goes far deeper. Did you know that there will be technology on board that will enable manufacturers to disable your player if someone with your model compromises the encryption? I have always been a strong supporter of High Definition movies on some disc media be it BR or HD, but if these crooks decide to go forward with these draconian measures this is one big SPENDING CUSTOMER they can count out.

It would be like saying that someone used your model car to rob a bank so ALL of your model will be disabled.

By the looks of this thread, and most of the other DVD message boards I've been on, it looks like the majority plan on boycotting both the HD-DVD and Blu-ray manufacturers, unless they offer component outputs as well as combine for 1 overall system and get rid of all their anti-piracy compromises...Since we only represent a tiny percentage of the overall video conumer market, and usually consumers follow our lead...I'd say it's time to wave bye bye to both HD-DVD as well as Blu-ray. It's sad they never even got out of the gate. Oh well, another (BETTER) format will come around in a few years, one where the consumer WON'T get screwed. When it comes along, we'll be ready to embrace it then. Til then, we won't die because we're stuck with S-DVD.

I would say that the people on this forum and over at HTF need to chill out until they get facts. None of what everyone is worried about has even been announced by Toshiba or Sony yet. What you just described would probably never happen because it sounds like a litigious disastor for every manufacturer involved.

I believe they already have the ability to disable a particular brand of DVD player's decryption by releasing DVDs that it can't decrypt but other brands can. Don't think it's happened though.

the biggest thing that irks me about this is that its all about piracy. pirated movies are usually lower than dvd resolution and downsampled anyways. plus, i don't think there will be much of a market for HD movies in the piracy ring since the file sizes will be so large. i really would love for one of these formats to catch on, but it will not happen for awhile if at all with all of these restrictions being set on normal paying customers.

One thing that irks me is the guys working on these new DVD formats make Televisions. The plans for HD-DVD/Bluray have been in the works for years. They knew the HDCP was going to be a requirement so you would have thought they would make sure all HDTVs are ready to go. The fact that even now there are HDTVs being sold that won't be compatible with HD-DVD is total bullcrap and shows just how irresponsible these manufacturers are.

HD-DVD/Blu Ray is off to a bad, bad start. Not to mention what a format war is going to do. I'm anything but excited about the restrictions being put on these new formats. I guess they figure the average consumer will be happy paying more to get the exact same 480P resolution they are getting now with their DVDs. I will be thrilled to see this format fail, but I think one of the two will survive. I will be shocked if it becomes anything more than another fringe format though. I guess it will depend on the prices of the discs and equipment.

To their credit, Toshiba has HDMI on everything and is leading the charge on that front. Most of the name brand sets have HDMi or at least DVI. If you are buying no name stuff, you may get a HD set without a proper connection, but it is tough to do.

I really do not see where this argument that tvs are still be made that do not include proper connections is coming from. When I bought my Toshiba 57 HDTV a few months ago, I don't remember any - and I looked at about a hundred HDTV - that did not at least have DVI. I avoided Mitsubishi because they still had not adopted the HDMI.

Despite the fact that my VOOM was DVI, a simple Monster Cable adaptor was better than not buying the future standard. Buyer Beware is what I say - they should be doing their research or asking a friend that knows. Anytime someone is an early adopter they take risk, it is the nature of the beast. Yes it sucks when you get shafted - alot of the people whining in this thread and others - but the fact is that is life.

As I have said though, I would prefer that the Component be HD. It would suit me better as I am not an HDMI fan.

If HDMI is the way things are going why do so many sets still only come with a DVI/HDCP input? Yes, I know it can be converted with a cable but why make people do that - why not have the HDMI input?

And why only one of these inputs? I think there should be a minimum of 2 HDMI inputs on any HDTV these days.

Meanwhile, I have a 4 year old Pioneer Elite with no digital inputs at all. HD material via component looks really good on it, but clearly people like me are a threat to Hollywood so I won't be allowed to participate in the new HD formats unless I chuck my set.

Here is the article he is talking about:
http://www.dvdfile.com/news/viewpoin...005/05_18.html

Right. Let's chill out and wait for these things to get in stores to realize that we have been screwed.

They put that in a bill, it was tossed out. They tried to sneak it into a big bill, the internet community smoked it out and stopped it. It isn't happening as of right now.

Chilling out may actually be in order.

A few years ago the issue was Firewire vs HDCP/DVI, since the industry knew that Hollywood was pushing for HD copy protection. Mitsubishi at that time made something like half of all CRT RPTVs. They tried to get Firewire as the standard and lost. HDMI as a specific form of DVI is one of the big reasons, it outperforms Firewire for A/V purposes. So they were making TVs, and nobody was sure which to put in. They weren't going to stop making TVs to wait it out. It's very unfortunate if anybody is in a position of obsoletion with their TV, but the reasons aren't quite as nasty as some may think.

My choice ended up being wait and see, and that has worked out fine. I started seriously shopping HDTVs about 4-5 years ago. I started shopping PJs 2.5 years ago. I didn't buy one until May. I just couldn't see dropping over $2k on something that might have this kind of problem, even though the waiting and watching on a 27" was killing me. So I bought other stuff, finished my speaker setup, got a better receiver and sub than I thought I could afford, etc. Now I'm REALLY happy with the outcome. My TV has HDMI, VGA, component, Svideo, composite inputs. All set!

What isn't happening as of right now?

According to the article in the lead post, the players Toshiba will, in fact, have a Firewire connection:


I still don’t plan to invest until the format war is resolved, but just out of curiosity, would it simply be a matter of connecting the Toshiba to my Mitsubishi via the IEEE1394 Firewire connection?

The reasons are every bit as nasty as I think. Televisions should never have been advertised and sold as HD and HD-Ready untill the standard was established. Manufacturers knew damn well DRM was coming very soon but they never informed the public and they sold TVs without it anyway. They chose to fuck us.

Too bad you were looking at the 2 year old mits - the ones that came out a little over a year ago game with HDMI. My mits is over 2 years old so it only has an HDMI connection but it does have a great picture. If you read any of the real (non-sponsored) HT forums - Mits comes out on top if you are willing to go CRT. CRT still has the best picture for movies although it is BIG and HEAVY.

The world knew about it. If you can find the internet, you can find this. They CHOSE to continue selling products. Should they have stopped selling TVs? What would you have said 4 years ago if there were no HDTVs on the shelf? Gimme a break! Should all analog TVs be pulled from the shelves, too? "Sorry, gramma. The cheapest TV is now $500. Pony up the cash." Not.

I should add: the standard had been established. And it has since changed. You can't look at this with today's knowledge because they didn't have it back then. Nobody knew what was going to come out of all the legal battles over CP. I'd blame the studios more for pushing all this crap CP on us. The mfgrs of equipment are just trying to build what's possible. (I blame the mfgrs for BR vs HDDVD, though)

For the other question:
The old news article mentioned above. The studios have been trying to get this extreme copy protection into broadcast technology and have failed so far. Which is good, it violates a couple different Amendments from what I can tell. What a joke.