ShagMan

I will happily sign up for a lawsuit if full-res component isn't available as well.

speedyray

If the player producers go with Hollywood on this one, they are not worried about a class-action - that would obviously hit both the player guys and Hollywood studios. If it was won, I doubt Hollywood would mind paying back some people if they thought it was helping cripple piracy. There was no implied compatability of HD-DVD and these older HDTV sets. I don't really see how a class action would be won. When a new camera body came out and my old lenses would not work with it, it was tough luck. I would think this is similar.

RoboDad

Yes, anyone buying a DVI-equipped set will be safe, in that they will be able to receive and process an HD video signal from an HD-DVD or Blu-ray player. However, if they are hoping to run the audio directly to the TV they may be disappointed if their player does not output the full audio on any other connector.

DavidH

So what happens with audio in this case? Can one still use their current receiver and just use a digital optical code as I am using now?

RoboDad

The only way current receivers will work in this new environment is if the player also provides a separate audio output (optical or coaxial), or if some kind of adapter is used to convert the HDMI audio to something the receiver will recognize. I'm sure most player models will provide alternate digital audio output connectors for quite some time, and also that HDMI-optical adapters will be most likely be available at some point. Of course, in the long run the desirable solution for audio devices (receivers, pre/pros and such) will be to upgrade to HDMI-equipped versions.

Josh Z

Upscaling DVD players are already available, and the majority of them do not allow upscaled content over component, just DVI or HDMI.

Upscaling a DVD to a higher resolution is not the same thing as High Definition, anyway. The scaling process does not add real picture detail to the video; it just fills in the spaces between pixels by duplicating those pixels.

Josh Z

The early reports were that the players would have component output, but not be able to transmit HD over it. Currently, it's in doubt if even they will provide that much, or be limited to just HDMI and nothing else.

The "zero possibility" is my opinion, but I feel pretty safe in it. The studios and electronics manufacturers are only going to get more paranoid about copy protection over time, not less.

Rex Fenestrarum

Well, this just sucks. I've only had my Sony 42" for a month and it only has one HDMI input - most sets only have one, no? - which is currently taken up by my cablebox\DVR. So now you're telling me that I'll have to switch the DVR to component and use HDMI for the once ot twice a week I watch DVDs? BS!

DavidH

Rex, I know what you mean. A couple of months ago I bought a Sony 57" and it too only has one HDMI input. I don't know why they didn't put in two. Obviously, one for HD Cable and one for an HD player would have been my case.

Iron_Giant

I have the same problem with my HDTV. I might have to get some kind of DVI switcher box.

Qui Gon Jim

I disagree. My set was marketed as being "HD Ready" and while it did not say "HD-DVD Ready" the bridge between the two can easily be made. If there were no plans to allow output from the new players over component, then they (manufacturers) should have immediately discontinued production on any model withput appropriate connections. If people can win a lawsuit about being "misled" by the grapic on the back of MGM DVDs, there certainly is a winnable case here. I would not look for a financial winfall, just the ability to use my set. Also your lenses/camera analogy doesn't work because we are not talking about differences between brands, we are talking about differences in standards.

Also I agree that Sony will be blasting their foot off at the hip if the new PS2 has no way of hooling up via currently available connections.

Finally, if the manufacturers and studios plan on going forward with this HDMI bullshit then BOTH formats will flop. They will deserve to lose millions with their short-sightedness.

speedyray

For the record, my camera analogy was about the same brand, just a change in the way they did things because technology advanced. In particular one set of lenes would hookup, but lost some funtionality (I see a lot of similarity between this and the non-HD component output)

A lot of lawsuits are won that should not be. Our legal system is a load of crap lately so yeah, you are right in that it probably is winnable. My opinion is it should not be, but in the right court it will probably win.

The PS3 will probably work on any TV set, but only output HD signal through HDMI. That is logical and I really see no reason why they would do it any other way.

For the comments on about 1 HDMI hookup, I am in the same boat. I really wanted 2, but the only sets I saw with two were out of my budgeted range. By Christmas there will be HDMI switchboxes, so don't worry about it. I also assume the next set of AV Recievers will have HDMI switching as well which will elliminate the problem for many.

The HDMI thing may slow HD-DVD/Blu-Ray down, but it will not kill it. This is one of the many reasons I have argued that it will be a very slow growth not rapid as some have predicted. The argument that the TV is HD ready implying HD-DVD might be a stretch. My set and most I have seen are marketed as HD-TV ready - that TV part would keep them off the hook. It may be a technicallity, but that counts in law.

I agree that all new HDTV should be on HDMI now and standard TV should not even be made anymore, but quite frankly, that is why comsumers should do research before they buy stuff. An educated consumer will save a lot of heartache and people should realize that but never seem to catch on.

DJ_Longfellow

You'll take it without lube....just like me

A enw TV and a NEW DVD player...sheesh. I'll wait a while anyways until things become MORE affordable.

Qui Gon Jim

You can't say "do your research" to those of us that have had TVs for a few years. For them to say "Fuck you, buy a new TV" to us, LOYAL EARLY ADOPTING customers is just really dumb. This product NEEDS the early folks desperately to succeed. Landfills will be filled with unsold players and media if they don't capture the early adopters, and cutting off a big portion of your target market is suicide.

I probably sound bitter, and I am I guess. But your posts come off with no empathy whatsoever. Basically an "I've got it so screw all those that don't" elitist attitude. I see the "for HDMI" side of this argument as indefensible, but here you are saying it's logical and justified. A HD product should work with an HD set. THAT is logic.

Your set is probably very nice. Problem is, you would not have gotten that good price on your set if it weren't for all the people that came before you that bought sets and helped to drive down prices

If this were about technological ability, than there would be no argument. BUT HD over component is technologically possible.

"My TV is HD. What do you mean this player won't work with it. What can I get to make it work? A new TV? You're crazy! Keep you new fangled format; DVD is good enough for me."

I really think that the manufacturers will see the light on this topic. If they don't, they will be the big losers.

ChrisHicks

I bought my Toshiba 57HX93(2004 model) 1 year ago and it didn't have HDMI. It does have DVI and a couple firewire connections but it seems that they decided to not use either of those. any idea of how many "affordable" HD sets from early 04 and back actually had HDMI connections? it pretty much sucks that its to the point that home theater gear is going the way of pc equipment in the fact that is turning obsolete the minute you buy it. or atleast its beginning to seem that way.

sureAV421

that's what i think is exactly what is going to happen. if they won't even allow the early adopters to watch hd-dvd/br, who are A/V enthusiasts how are they going to get the mainstream to go for it? they really need to stop punishing the actual legitimate customers because there are a few pirates out there.

eXcentris

I didn't mean to imply that the result would be identical but as is always the case with constraints applied to new technology, workaround solutions, although not perfect, always appear on the market shortly thereafter. I would agree though, that these solutions are often not deemed satisfactory by high-end users.

RoboDad

As I said earlier in the thread, if you have DVI, you're set. There are a number of DVI/HDMI adapters available, and there are no compatibility/protection issues when converting between the two (other than the obvious lack of audio on DVI, but that is a minor issue, and one that will be easily dealt with for the next several years).

As far as DVI/HDMI switchers, I haven't seen any yet, but I have no doubt that they will be available. Whenever there is a damand for something, there is always an enterprising company that will deliver it. And it won't be too long before the overwhelming majority of A/V receivers also support HDMI. The manufacturers would be foolish to try to ignore it (and they really have no desire to do that, anyway).

bboisvert

They exist:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=400631

but the prices are completely nuts at this stage. I'm already at the point where I need two HDMI inputs -- for my HD cable and my upconverting Momitsu player... but I'm going to wait it out. I'll wait for receivers to offer decent HDMI input options and just upgrade then.

RoboDad

Thanks for the link! I suppose that price a a little nuts, but not as far out of line as it might have been. I doubt they will ever be much below the $100 mark, but we'll have to wait and see.

And I do think your approach of waiting for decent receiver options is a good one for the most part, although it leaves you with a bit of a quandry in the short term. I would bet that there will be several receivers announced this year with good HDMI support, although they will undoubtedly start at the higher end ($1500+) models exclusively, and then filter down to the more midrange and budget models after another year or two.

steebo777

It's technology guys. It is obsolete as soon as you buy it. We are all used to it, so I don't understand the whining about it. It sucked when I bought my 1gen iPod, then needed to buy a 3gen because it didn't have the cradle connection (for use in the car). It sucked when I bought a geForce4 to play higher-end PC games, then had to buy a better Radeon when Doom3 came out to play it. It sucked I just bought my projector a couple years ago and it didn't have any HDMI/DVI inputs. But it happens. I mean this is capitalism at it's best IMO... they need to make a buck off people, and that's the way it goes. If you're a true HT fanatic, you'll put forth the money required for equipment and software and go ahead with it. I know I am.

And I think Josh Z's first post is dead on. I can't see them outputting full bandwidth HD 1080i or 1080p (whatever they decide to go with) from a component connection, but rather output 480i/480p. Just my $0.02. Also, shouldn't this thread be in the HT Hardware section?

speedyray

Qui Gon Jim,

It is not that I have no sympathy, but as steebo777 said above, it is life. I waited, and waited to get HDTV because of prices and advancement and a plethora of other reasons and it sucked to here people talking about how great it was. Eveyone else was enjoying HD and not me. So they got a benefit I did not. Now, I get a benfit they do not - it may seem like I am lucky, but think about all the great HD stuff they saw while I was watching SD. On the other hand I will want a new receiver that has HDMI switching, which will make me replace my $1500 Pioneer Elite receiver I have had around a year. I am not busy being upset about that, I am planning. My current one will go to the second room. The one in the scond room will go to the garage. Such is life. I fully expect to replace the HDTV I just bought in the next 3 years. I want a projector. Such is life.

It really sucks for those without DVI/HDMI (people with DVI need to calm down as they will be ready to go with a simple adaptor). I would be pissed as well, but what can you do - the specs for a new technology that did not technically exsist when the set was made were not compatible. The HD-DVD/BluRay systems will survive. They may grow very slowly, but they will survive.

Let me say again, I am sympathetic, but I am realist. I have been burned when new technology comes out and I expect alot of people to get burned on this one. It is part of being an early adopter, some seldom get burned by this kind of thing because they are always on the sideline - if you get in the game you take a risk.

DthRdrX

As previously stated, dvi has shown more problems with dvd than we want to see again. I'm worried that the all digital connection could negativly impact PQ. With dvd you can always just throw the comp connection in as a last resort. Other than that issue I'm not to upset about my TV being outdated already. Regardless of connections, the PQ of my 4 year old set is nowhere near as good as today's models. That upsets me more than the what connections I have.

One other problem I see with hdmi only is that most HD sets today only have 1 digital connector on the back. Kind of sucks if you have HD-dvd, Blue-Ray, Digital Recorder, HD sat box, a digital vhs ....

As for having to buy new equipment, how long before 1080i players are replaced by 1080p machines? The next two significant pushes for hardware manufacturers is going to be full 1920x1080i resolution, from 720p today, followed by affordable 1080p TVs and possibly progressive HD players.
On another topic, Fox, Artisan, and Universal are already releasing 1080i HD movies via component without any big complaint from the studios.

RoboDad

Just thought I'd add my two cents on the "early adopters getting screwed" issue.

I am one of the owners of an expensive, component-only "HD-ready" RPTV, a 4-year-old Toshiba 65" model, for which I paid more than twice the average price for this year's 65" models, all of which support either DVI or HDMI. I would say that I did more than my share of due diligence before making my purchase, only to find, less than a year later, that DVI had been adopted, and would soon start appearing on most models.

So how do I feel about that? Frankly, I am just fine with it. I knew the risks going in. I knew I was an early adopter. But I have also gotten four years of use out of my set (which has performed admirably with my progressive scan DVD player) that non-adopters have not gotten, as speedyray said, and have been the envy of most of my friends .

Now that the dust is settling, and HDMI/DVI is the clear winner in the connector department, I am completely willing to upgrade. In fact, looking at some of the new sets out there and the refinements that have been made over the past four years, it makes my set look like a dinosaur by comparison. Would I rather have been able to take full advantage of the HD world with my set? Perhaps. But I won't regret the upgrade at all, and the current price point will seem like somewhat of a bargain compared to what I previously paid.

ChrisHicks

well I was planning a tv upgrade anyway but not right away. as I said in my earlier post, my set is only a year old. I am thinking of getting a DLP set this time. I figure just as I go out and buy my HDMI supported tv, dvd player and reciever they should come out with something newer and make me start the entire process over again.

I can understand why many don't really like this news since most don't really like spending 2000.00 or more on a tv every few years if they can't afford it.

one question...which do you do more - upgrade your HT stuff or trade in cars?