Ironicly, you've just proved my point. More choice is *ALWAYS* better than one, or none. The consumer should be able to buy from walmart, the mom and pop stores, online or wherever they please. To reduce the choices down to one source is a bad thing.

That's what the studios are trying to do - close off the world and make them buy from ONE source. If another store (or in this case, another country) can provide the better service at a better price, then I should be free to take my money there.

(and for the record, I would hardly call the MPAA and RIAA a mom-and-pop operation that's in danger of being driven out by an 800 pound gorillia).

El Kabong said Quote:

Ok stealing is not quite the right word. But Corporate America is trying to run roughshod over my rights to buy what I want from wherever I want (AKA outside the US). No, they haven't said "It's illegal!" - but they're trying really, really hard with little dog and pony shows like this one. They are trying to scare the populace into acceptance and compliance.

How people can defend a policy like that boggles the mind.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BritTVfanMidwst
Isn't it a shame that the greatest so-called democracy in the world is SO AFRAID of the opinions of people in other countries that ANY and ALL representations of the culture of those countries are stopped at the border? How stupid can you get.

Its not so much that they're afraid of the culture, its a desire for control and of shameless greed. They don't want you to import Final Fantasy XXIII from Japan 8 months (or Battle Royale from the UK, or whatever) before it's release in the US shores, because The US Studios don't get a cut of the pie. Somebody else gets your money, and not the people that count.

That's why they're scared. That's why they seek to impose these artificial limitations on us - it's all about the Washingtons at the end of the day. :UNQUOTE

Okay, you're right-- it's corporate GREED rather than government fear of othe cultures.

However, it still bothers me on a number of levels!

1) As far as I can tell the vast majority of MOVIES are released in the US first (the exception being foreign films that have a place of origin other than the US). The MMPA wants to force non-US dwelling movie fans to WAIT to get their copies of American films until they are cleared for region 2 (or 4 or whatever) so the DVD does NOT come out prior to distribution of the movie to theaters.
THIS MAKES NO SENSE-- the MMPA is actually *preventing* sales -- (1) At least in the UK, most DVD players are sold as multi-region. There is a HUGE market for American films (and music, and TV shows) in the UK. By making it more difficult to export films, the MMPA is actually reducing sales.

2) Punitive laws restricting IMPORTs (to the US) will eventually led to other countries passing laws restricting imports (from the US). Import/export is a tit-for-tat business and it always has been. IF/When the US restricted imports of cars from Japan in the 1970s, Japan most probably reacted by restricting the sale of American goods in Japan (such as clothing, blue jeans, etc).

3) I actually, *personally* (and I know others on this forum feel differently) have no desire to buy American films from overseas because they are released here first anyway. The REASON I bought a multi-region player was to watch British television DVDs and that's it! (Which is WHY I needed a machine that would convert PAL-- I could care less about the region, about half the PAL DVDs are not even coded/region 0--but I needed PAL conversion). The title of this thread and the MMPA warning *is designed to make me think I'm actually breaking the law by watching "The Professionals" in the privacy of my home (or reading a British edition of "Harry Potter" for that matter). To be frank--this pisses me off. I think I SHOULD have the right to read whatever I want, and to watch whatever I want-- I'm an adult for pete's sake!!!

Re: Buying stuff early--- The ONLY thing I might buy early before it's available in the US is *Doctor Who*-- and so far I have ***actually waited*** for the NTSC releases and NOT actually purchased this series in PAL. ALL my actual purchases from Region 2/0 and in PAL have been series that are not available in the US and in all probability ***NEVER will be***. No one in the US (not even Warners who own the US rights for "Doctor Who") are willing to reformat the following series in NTSC and sell them in the US. No studio/distribution company has even TRIED selling them in the US because they assume no one is interested!

EXAMPLES
Blake's 7 -- No NTSC version exists
The Professionals --No NTSC version exists
Randall and Hopkirk, deceased (2000 version) --No NTSC version exists
Brass -- No NTSC version exists
A Very Peculiar Practice --No NTSC version exists
Robin of Sherwood -- No NTSC version exists (I don't have the PAL version yet)
Etc, etc, etc I could probably list 100 titles available from Amazon UK that aren't available in the US from ANY retailer.
Interestingly-- "Dept S" (which like RoS I desperately want) isn't available from the UK-- I'd have to get a PAL copy from Australia or a Secam one from France.

I'm guessing that you Anime/Hong Kong Action flick fans out there could post similar lists of stuff that YOU want that you can't buy in the US because it simply isn't available in a Region 1/NTSC version-- it's available in whatever region coding applies to Japan and/or Hong Kong, right?


Corporate America is beginning to REALLY really anger me--and I'm beginning to think it's about time the average consumer fought back! After all-- not allowing you to purchase something, is a form of censorship.

--Brit TV fan

Spiky said quote: You want to know why this should be acceptible? Let's do a comparison. Go to a little town with a Walmart, see all the closed little shops that Walmart forced out of business? If only they would enforce the damn laws on this kind of situation. It's really the same thing. The import laws protect US companies (theoretically) the same way the laws SHOULD HAVE protected those small retailers.

It has taken longer for people to see the problems with our democratic system, but it is certainly there. Corruption comes much faster with other govt systems, but it's always the same. If only..... :Unquote

I have a problem with Walmart as well! Their tactic of INVADING small towns, running everybody out of business, then raising prices and dropping wages is absolutely disgusting, in my opinion it's UN-American, and if the US government wasn't owned lock-stock-and-barrel by Corporate America, it would have been stopped long ago. (This doesn't even get into all the OTHER problems with Walmart-- their anti-union attacks up to and including the intimadation and even murder of union organizers, the blatent sexual harrassment and abuse of female workers, the insanely low wages and the lack of any sort of health care for employees). To me Walmart is the epitome of coporate greed and anti-human rights! I NEVER SHOP THERE AND YOU SHOULDN'T EITHER!

You're right-- those laws should be used to protect the little guy and stop villians like Walmart (that's what the LAW is for-- to protect those who *can't* protect themselves)-- however the US government has shown over and over again, especially under the current adminstration that it's the walmarts of America that get the protection and the little guy can literally go screw themselves. (and small business owners continue to vote Republican because it's supposedly "pro business"-- does anyone else see a *problem* with that?)

--Brit TV fan

Kl-Kabong said Quote:
Ironicly, you've just proved my point. More choice is *ALWAYS* better than one, or none. The consumer should be able to buy from walmart, the mom and pop stores, online or wherever they please. To reduce the choices down to one source is a bad thing. :Unquote

BUT-- Walmart has an unfair advantage (a VERy unfair one): Walmart can and DOES run new stores in rural areas/small towns with prices BELOW COST --until they have literally run all their local competitiors out of business--AND THEN THEY RAISE COSTs.
The local mom and pop store simply cannot local their prices below Walmart's prices and stay in business-- it's not possible. Part of the reason is the buying in bulk discount that applies to almost all materials in retail. BUT the other part of the reason is that Walmart will actually UNDERCUT even bulk prices and operate a store AT A LOSS until the competition folds, then raise prices and make as much profit as they want. (They can do this because Corporate Walmart isn't operating at a loss, only one store out of hundreds is-- the huge profits of other stores overcome the one store's lost on the corporate balance sheet).

To help you understand; let's say you own Kabong's Towels and Linens in Small Town Kansas USA

Cotton Towels 100 blue towels your cost $10.00 each your sale price: $12.00/each (net profit; $2.00 per towel, minus overhead so say $1.40 per towel)

Walmart buys cotton towels: 1000 blue towels (their cost $8.00). If Walmart sells the towels at $12.00 they are already making DOUBLE your profit ($4.00 minus overhead)
But what Walmart will do is sell the towels at $5.00 each.
The (albeit stupid) residents of Small Town, KS suddenly decide to buy $5.00 towels from Walmart instead of your "expensive" $12.00 towels. Gradually you lose business. Eventually you are forced to close your business.
Once you do close your business-- Walmart will raise the price of towels to $16.00 (still buying them for $8.00) doubling their profit AGAIN, and your local residents will have no place else to buy towels except at the now inflated Walmart price.

THAT is why it's unfair!

Quote:
That's what the studios are trying to do - close off the world and make them buy from ONE source. If another store (or in this case, another country) can provide the better service at a better price, then I should be free to take my money there. :unquote

NOW this I agree with-- but then I've always thought "isolationism" a dam* fool policy, short-sighted in the extreme. (Any punitive action taken against another country WILL be rebound on you, eventually, and probably magnified).

"Better service, better price" -- Within REASON yes-- as long as everyone is playing by the same rules.

--Brit TV fan

By the bye-- ALL of this is why I SELDOM make purchase decisions on PRICE alone. Often when I buy thru' an e-retailer instead of locally it is because I cannot buy a specific item locally.

True story: I wanted the "Barenaked for the Holidays" Barenaked Ladies Christmas CD for Christmas. I didn't get it. In January I went to THREE, count them, THREE local stores asking for the title (figuring that in January I'd get it for a song in someone's after-Christmas sale bin). NONE of the local businesses had it! The clerk at the largest record store in my town (a) refused to special order a Christmas cd, (b) told me the title was out of print.
I went home and ordered it from Amazon.com that day! I was particularly annoyed at the clerk at the large music store in town who refused to do a special order for me. (I told him I'd order from Amazon, and he STILL refused, and came up with "it's out of print" to avoid doing the work).
Trust me-- I don't even feel *guilty* about ordering from Amazon under those circumstances. Local businesses should at least be providing superior customer service.
(And my local Suncoast actually does-- they KNOW me, and the clerks will special order whatever I want. So I buy stuff from them INSTEAD of on-line. Sometimes I even spend more money at Suncoast, because if I didn't Suncoast would fold--well, it's local store would fold).

--Brit TV fan

BritTVfanMidwst -- how are you quoting people? Either your vB code is messed up or something else is going on... your posts are very hard to read. I can't tell where the quotes end and you begin.

Squirrel God--

Maybe you could explain the British rating system to me? I REALLY don't get it. Some of my Brit TV discs actually have TWO numbers listed for ratings-- AND they are different ones. I've also seen it where different seasons (series) have different ratings! This makes absolutely NO sense to me.

If you want specific examples, I'll provide them, just let me know.

signed,
dazed and confused Brit TV fan

Fixed.

No, but I noticed the program that cleans your computer of any file sharing programs and any media files that may or may not be copyrighted material, but prompts you to verify the deletion beforehand. Also, it does not share that information with anyone except the home user. Also, it's called "Parent File Scan," not "Relatives and Friends File Scan." So, no, not scary.

...suggestions?

Pro-B

No justification nessassary. I'm at peace with stealing music, because the industry are a bunch of rat bastards who care more about squezing a couple more pennies out of their product.

On the other hand, I have always said that if I were to meet the members of Duran Duran on the street, I would gladly give them 5 bucks each (which is about 95% more than they get from the record industry) for all the music I've enjoyed. But the suits who control the music cartel? Fuck 'em. They keep CD prices artificialy high, they price fix, they do their best to screw artists, they straight up lie about the state of the industry (like claiming record losses even though CD sales have been pretty strong this year), and they cling to an outmoded distrobution system and attack their consumer base instead of adapting to change.

Why I should have anything but contempt for them?

So yeah, I have no problem downloading music and being upfront about why I do it. Kinda takes the wind out of your "witty" dismissal of my argumemnts. Sucks to be you, I guess.

People, I agree these laws are over the top, poorly designed, poorly enforced (that's the good part), etc. But stuff like this:
Try to pay attention. These laws predate DVD. They are not about DVD. They are not about media or censorship. The MPAA is not the government. The laws are about protecting trade and distribution rights, not speech or other crap so commonly foisted on DVDTalk. No, really. Try reading them. Go ahead, you can even read between the lines, you will still see corporate buying issues, not free speech.

Britfan,
We all know about Walmart, hence my easy reference to it with no explanation needed. I've basically given up shopping there, even though in my town it isn't as much of an issue as they are outweighed by the REALLY big gorilla, Target. And you do need to clean up your quoting, use the quote buttons in the Reply screen instead of just typing "Quote".

Some. Any. One's we don't have. Monopoly laws could be more forward-thinking, perhaps. Price-fixing laws, perhaps. I'm not read up on this group, so can't really be too specific.

Or, people could be more intelligent and not give Walmart power.......Hmm, forget that, lost my head there.....

Spiky--

I can't get the quote thing to work right--there is no "quote" button on each message the way normal posting boards work. When I try to click the "quote message in reply" option either A) NOTHING HAPPENS or B) I literally cannot put a check in the box it won't let me or C) my entire browser shuts down. So don't be so snippy with me, when there's a problem with the forum not allowing me to quote messages. (I use cut and paste, instead). If I need to change a preference somewhere --for god's sake just bloody tell me, don't be snippy about it!
Thanks

Brit TV fan

It's in the bottom right corner of every post:

http://ads.kleinman.com/images/buttons/quote.gif

If you can't see it, then it's your browser.

I wonder if the moderators will let us talk about importing DVDs and foreign films

Actualy if he cant see it, it's because of the firewall. Norton buggers up the buttons here. Check the suport forum - they have the solution in a sticky there.

Britfan,
Sorry, wasn't trying to be "snippy".

Gerry,
I was actually refering to the button that creates the quote area that you can use over and over again for long posts. Just like the URL button for posting links conveniently.

paul,
Try the International forum, that's what it's for.




Did we go off topic again?

Vandelay,
I guess we're agreeing essentially. I'm just not sure because you appear to be contradicting yourself. Maybe I'm reading something wrong.

Gerry P said quote: It's in the bottom right corner of every post: Unquote

NO, it isn't!!!! I thought we'd established that! Believe me, it's just as annoying for me to re-type or cut&paste what other forum members are saying as it is for some of you to figure out where the quotes end (that's what unquote means).
There RE NO "QUOTE" BUTTONS!!!! And I'm using Microsoft Internet Explorer, not some off brand browser. If I need to change something PLEASE tell me how to do it.
Thanks.

--Brit TV fan

Give an example and I will answer you. Im from the uk.

This is probably the rating for the UK and the rating for Ireland. The same DVDs usually get released in both, but they have to be rated separately by each ratings body.

I don't see what's so confusing about this. Different seasons/series can have different kinds of content, and the BBFC will rate them accordingly.

hamburger 3 and Philip Reuben--

Okay, here's some examples:

*Randall and Hopkirk, deceased* (2000)
Series 1-- Outside case "12" in Red circle.
Physically on disc 1-- 12 in red circle AND 15 in bright blue octagon with light blue ring surrounding it. The light blue ring says: "Film censor's office" and something in a language I can't read. Disc two has the same two symbols.
Series 2-- Outside case "12" in red circle.
Inside on discs, "12" in red circle AND "12" in the same blue octagon described above.
Blake's 7-- Series 1
"PG" in a yellow triangle (I'm used to PG meaning "Parental Guidance Suggested"--a film rating)
The discs are marked with the PG in yellow triangle and "G" in the blue octogan described above.
The Professionals
Season One-- 15 in red circle, discs 1, 2, & 4--15 in black circle inside (all the writing on the discs is black print tho), disc 3 is a 12.Season
Season Two-- 15 in red circle
The discs are marked Disc 1--15, disc 2 12, disc 3 12, and disc 4 PG in a triangle!
(Explain THAT!)
Season Three -- 12 in red circle
12 on all four discs inside
Brass
PG-- yellow triangle
A Very Peculiar Practice
15 in a red circle on case, same on discs.

I guess what threw me was seeing a DIFFERENT rating on the disc than on the cases, seeing two ratings for the same item and different seasons being rated differently.
It's very strange.

--Brit TV Fan

PS-- Thanks for your help tho!

The blue octagons are the Irish ratings (which I know little about other than that they appear on a lot of DVDs), the others are the UK ratings.

When TV shows are submitted for BBFC rating, it's usually in blocks of either each disc or individual episodes, which the BBFC will then judge on its own content and give a certificate to. Each disc will then have to show the rating for that disc or, if each episode was rated individually, the highest rating out of them all.

It's strange to see that much variation within one series, but evidently the BBFC saw a big difference in the level of content. (Their priorities can be a little strange sometimes, and this may be a reflection of that.) That's what happens when different parts get rated individually... it makes sense to me (aside my general disagreement with mandatory ratings). The packaging will then have the highest rating out of any of the discs.

I've only ever owned one DVD bought in Ireland, but on the packaging, the Irish ratings were literally just stickers on top of the UK ones. I guess that wouldn't be practical for the discs themselves, which is why those have two sets of ratings printed on them.

Hi Philip--

Thanks for the info. For the record, in the States--movies were/are rated, but having *any* sort of ratings for TV shows is VERY new, and I don't think DVDs have seperate ratings (eg-- the DVD of a film just has the MMPA rating on it). (And often older films carry no rating)

I buy what I like and seldom look at ratings, tho' I found it VERY strange to see completely different ratings on each *disc* of "The Professionals" (tho' I know the series had some controversy about the violence level). Which is, in and of itself, odd.

I'd actually have stuff rated than the OLD system for TV in the US, which was make everything suitable for a 12-year-old (and thus no entertainment for adults. In fact, the phrase "adult entertainment" in the US is usually slang for porn, but I'm actually NOT talking about that, I'm talking about reasonably intelligent TV programs, that adults can actually *watch*-- that's probably a BIG, big reason I started watching Brit TV in the first place).

--Brit TV fan

BritTVfanMidwst,

As I said in my previous post, it is actually illegal here to sell anything that doesn't have a rating - that includes TV shows, documentaries, cartoons, etc. Selling something without submitting it for classification, as you can do in the US, is just not permitted here. Our ratings are not guidance, as they are in the US -- they are requirements.

Because each disk is a separate entity, each disk must bear a rating from the BBFC -- so TV shows which have multiple disks must bear a rating on each disk. This avoids the problem of a single disk from a boxset being sold on its own and not bearing a rating.

Re the quotes thing, if you are having trouble seeing the quote button, you can create quotes manually. Just highlight the text you want to set as a quote and click the last button on the toolbar in the Reply box. This one ---> http://ads.kleinman.com/images/editor/quote.gif. Alternatively, just put this at the start of a quote:

[ quote ] (without the spaces)

and this at the end of the quote:

[ / quote ] (again, without the spaces)

You're not going crazy. This sometimes happens if your virus protection software blocks graphics stored on this site's ad server. See the first post in this thread (section "Missing Buttons") for how to fix the problem:

http://www.dvdtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=194140

Whatever. If you have this much of a problem with the major record labels, there are thousands of independent labels that treat their bands better. Almost all of the CDs I buy (indie labels only) are $5-10. I download music, and if I like it enough to keep it, I buy the album.

And regardless, these bands that stick with the major labels must be getting <i>something</i> out of the deal, or else they wouldn't continue to renew their contracts. Whether or not you're "at peace with your decision," it's still a justification for theft. And if you saw them on the street? What the fuck? Send them $20 by mail. But you won't, because that's not the real reason you download music.

"No justification nessassary. I'm at peace with stealing music, because the industry are a bunch of rat bastards who care more about squezing a couple more pennies out of their product."

First, isn't that justification?
And, of course, hmmm...this actually applies to, oh, pretty much EVERY industry. I work for a medical equipment manufacturing company, and you're right, we want to maximize our profit/revenue. Does that mean you're going to go steal an MRI scan? Same thing with automanufacturers, DVD publishers, everybody.
I'm not condoning or bashing dl'ing music, I'm just saying using this 'logic' to excuse music piracy is inherently flawed.

The medical example isn't really a fair comparison.

The Record Industry tries to maximize profits like other businesses, but they do so at the expense of music quality and the artists themselves by only signing sound alikes and signing new artists to contracts that pay them very little relative to what the labels make.

I'm not trying to justify anything as I don't d/l music at all. I still prefer to have the actual CD despite the horrible system.

But they're obviously doing something right, those albums are selling.

"Music quality"--Impossible to define, unless you mean they are recording on an old school-system tape player [which I doubt you are].

Sound alikes--like any other industry, you have your innovators and your imitators [see: any tv network, "reality" shows.]

Signing to contracts--I assume most musicians can read a contract? Never sign something before you read it. In the past to get 'big' you needed a label. Thus, the labels had the power. The good news is that today there are so many alternative sources and venues, the contracts need to be a little more competitive and offer a little more to the artist.

Still nothing really makes the record industry stand out from many other industries except for lots of publicity and poor starving artists.

I do agree, there's something about having a CD with all its accoutrements.

Importation into the United States, without the authority of the owner of copyright under this title, of copies or phonorecords of a work that have been acquired outside the United States is an infringement of the exclusive right to distribute copies or phonorecords under section 106, actionable under section 501.

I forget which company it was, but they were importing Shaolin Soccer dvd's and whichever company it was that released it in the theaters told them to stop doing it.

Thus if they imported the dvd, they would be breaking the law.

The company that wanted them to stop put the original movie on the new release and the imports would have cut into their profit.

So it's illegal to import and sell them, but what about renting them out?

Please read the relevant section of the Copyright Act that I posted back on page one. There is a personal use allowance, but it only applies "for the private use of the importer and not for distribution." Renting is not a private use, but rather a type of leased distribution.

DJ

I was just wondering because a lot of people use NicheFlix, who are even a DVD Talk affiliate. They're located in Indiana, I believe.

Looks to me like the US is pretty much like the UK here. Importing for your own personal use is perfectly legal. Importing for commercial purposes is not - ie if you import for the purpose of profit such as rental or sale that's illegal. Firstly, because the product is only authorized for sale where it says it is (remember that when I import a title from the US, I actually purchase it in the US and have it sent to me here in the UK. The actual sale takes place in the US).

But second, and more importantly - and this is where the authorities are really hot on the subject, at least in my country - imported titles have not passed through our certification process. And again while it's perfectly legal to import virtually anything you please for your own personal use (even stuff that wouldn't get a certificate here!) it's a big no-no to have uncertified material for sale/and or rent.

It's nothing to to with copyright really...because when you import something, you aren't breaching copyright. WHat you buy is a fully authorised copy..unless of course it's a priate version. That site is frankly misleading and confusing!

There have been shops that imported titles and resold them here that were shut down with their stock seized.

The only ones still operating are those that offer a "personal import service". That is, you place an order with them, and they then have it sent from a US/Canadian/whatever end direct to you.

Yes, you may be. The U.S. Copyright Act makes many types of importation an infringement of copyright. As has happened before, the copyright holder can bring a copyright infringement lawsuit against an importer.

It's fully authorized, but for a different country. This means it may not be authorized when imported.

DJ

Not quite. The same reasoning holds true in Canada; there is one set of rules for casual importations, and another for commercial.

The operative word being COMPANY!!!! What you do as an individual is different LEGALLY than what you do as a company.
Per copyright law, it is LEGAL to import ONE copy of a foreign work for YOUR PERSONAL USE.
However-- if you import 10 copies and distribute them (even to your friends, for FREE) techinically, that's illegal. (Tho' in general if you don't make money no one cares)
If you import and then sell copies-- that's illegal.
Technically, if you charge "admission" to a group of people to watch the DVD you imported (which sounds like the case for the specific issue you brought up) Guess what? It's illegal.

What bothers me, is it seems like Corporate America, including the MMPA and other special interest groups with a heck of a lot more money than me, are trying to make it illegal to even import ONE, single copy of ANY book, movie, TV show, or even work of art from other countries. It's part of the isolation movement, and it sucks royally.

Right now it's legal-- tomorrow, who knows?

READ the law, (take a class in law if you have trouble)-- IMPORTING for your own personal use, is NOT, illegal-- not yet.

And even if it was illegal, which it's not, it would be an InCREDIBLY shortsighted, stupid, racist, imperial law.

Thanks for the tip, but I'm actually the lawyer that posted the law to this thread in the first place.

Which is why I said "it may not be authorized when imported." There are some situations where it is, some where it is not. Take a class in reading English if you have trouble.

Thanks for letting me know.

DJ