Weird that you'd pick it as one of your five favorite documentaries on DVD if you didn't think it was on DVD. Nevertheless, it is in fact on DVD.

I'm curious of what keeps the films of Michael Moore out of the realm of documentary in your mind. Is it their polemical nature, or that Moore appears in front of the camera, or what? As for "behind the scenes" looks at movies, do you make exceptions if the work is particularly well made or feature-length. For example, would you not consider <i>Burden of Dreams</i> or <i>Hearts of Darkness: A Filmmaker's Apocalypse</i> documentaries?

From The Free Dictionary:
doc·u·men·ta·ry
adj.
1. Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
2. Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.
n. pl. doc·u·men·ta·ries
A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration.


I don't see how either Bowling for Columbine or Fahrenheit 9/11 fits those definitions. I've seen both; in my opinion, they're filled with distortions and half-truths that are well-disputed (if not disproved) elsewhere.


Here's a controversial site with a biased view that, if you can wade through the crap, points out a lot of the, well, lies in BFC.

And here's another biased site that has less crap, but you still have to get past the pettiness, finger-pointing, and name-calling, to see the kind of deceptions used in F-9/11.


As an example (hypothetical, not actually from Moore's films), if somebody were to say "I hate people who say Mexicans are evil," and then the clip is edited down so you only get the person saying "Mexicans are evil," then that is a lie. Moore seems to think that it's a valid clip to include in a documentary to prove his point if (1) he believes the person really feels that way, and (2) he doesn't have another clip where they really said it. So, he seems to feel it's OK to use the one where that person did utter those words, even if they were out of context.


On the other hand, Sicko, in my opinion, seems to be mostly pretty honest (except for the obvious and stupid scene at Gitmo), and I (as if it really matters to anyone else what I think) would classify it as a documentary.


I'm not trying to start a debate on the issue. I'm just trying to point out why many people don't consider his films documentaries--and it's not just the vast right-wing conspiracy who think that way.

I am going to cheat a little and go to 6 although my list is not overly different.

Errol Morris Collection (Vernon, Florida/Gates of Heaven/The Thin Blue Line)
Salesman
High School
Wojciech Wiszniewski Documentary Set
Harlan County, U.S.A.
Dont Look Back

Gotcha. So, I'll mark you down as "because of their polemical nature."

Please tell me more about this one.

1. Gimme Shelter
2. Radio Bikini
3. Capturing the Friedmans
4. Waco: Rules of Engagement
5. Gates of Heaven

Can't wait to see what you come up with next time. :D

Ha! And the sad thing is, my list will be different in another year when this thread gets bumped again! :D

Hoop dreams
Civil War
Baseball
Roger and Me
Enron

Please update your post as soon as you've seen two more documentaries.

While it was morbidly interesting to hear about Holmes elaborate, maze-like house of horrors, the annoying habit of the true crime author (I forgot his name) to turn every sentence into a question made him sound like some sort of middle-aged Valley Girl.

In no order, except for first five:

Best Boy
Dying at Grace
Hoop Dreams
My Flesh and Blood
Hearts of Darkness

Times of Harvey Milk
The Corporation
Koyaanisqatsi
Common Threads
Scared Straight
Waterwalker
Fahrenheit 9/11
Winter Soldier
Warrendale
Shackleton's Voyage of Endurance
A Married Couple
Roger & Me
Dear America: Letters Home from Vietnam
Lessons of Darkness
Memory of the Camps

That's 20 (sorry), but there are numerous terrific docs not on DVD (Streetwise comes immediately to mind).

no love for Chickenhawk?

If you weren't already aware, Wiseman's films, including High School, are now available as (expensive) DVD-Rs directly from him. Discussion/review thread is located here.

This was one of the main things I hated about the Holmes documentary. It made it almost impossible for me to concentrate on what he was saying since "uptalkers" drive me insane.

Yeah, that's another good one...creepy. I remember seeing this on vhs years ago...I'm going to have check to see if it's on dvd yet.

1. Decasia

2. No Direction Home

3. No End in Sight

4. Blind Spot

5. Salesman

Ah, good choice. I suppose I had never thought of this in terms of it being a documentary in the traditional sense. Hilary Harris works in a somewhat similar vein - amazing time-lapse/experimental stuff from the 60s and 70s. It's a pity so little of his work is available on dvd.

My faves...

#1. Technically, The Power of Nightmares, is on DVD. You can get it from back issues of Wholpin .
#2. Orwell Rolls In His Grave
#3. F-9/11
#4. Sicko
#5. The Corporation (an outstanding DVD)

Hollywood needs a release as does the original uncut versions of Vietnam - A Television History and Eyes on the Prize (I & II) and a number of American Experience & Nova titles.

I am surprised (and a bit dismayed) to see Michael Moore's productions listed here as documentaries. What ever else Moore may be, a documentarian is not one. Errol Morris is, Moore is not. Moore's left-wing rantings (I'm a liberal, BTW) can in no way be considered objective reporting or factual documentaries, and to include him with such luminaries as Errol Morris or Frederick Wiseman is an insult to their labors. That said, my list:

Grey Gardens
High School
Fog of War
White Light/Black Rain
Thin Blue Line

If you want to call Moore a propagandist, I'll agree with you. If you want to say that you don't regard propaganda as documentary, I'll say to each his own. If you want to tell me that all your friends, some dictionary, and some film guy agree with your opinion too, I don't have a problem with that either. However, if you tell me that there's only one meaning of the term documentary film and it's not broad enough to include the films of Michael Moore, I'm going to have to disagree.

Imagine the horror of the premier organization of documentary filmakers naming three of Moore's films on their 25 best ever list. Oh wait, the IDA did just that, so experience the horror.

Not to mention that Best Documentary Feature Oscar and DGA award.

Anyway, I'm a documentary junkie. Watch as many as I can, my favorites in no real order and I can't just do 5-

Kurt & Courtney
Biggie & Tupac
American Movie
Spellbound
bowling for Columbine
Fog of War
Crumb
Koyaanisqatsi (the whole trilogy really)
Paradise Lost
Brother's Keeper
DiG!
Inside Deep Throat
Lost in La Mancha
The War Room
In the Shadow of the Moon
No End in Sight
The Aristocrats
Koko, A Talking Gorilla
Murder on a Sunday Morning
The Weather Underground

That's off the top of my head and glancing at my DVDs. I'm sure I could double the list but will stop there.

Four that deserve mention:

BBS Documentary (and I listed it first for a reason!)
Metal: A Headbanger's Journey
Judgment Day: Intelligent Design On Trial
Taxi To The Dark Side

I probably won't watch Taxi To The Dark Side again though.

My other favorites have already been posted:

No End In Sight
Grizzly Man
The Smartest Guys in the Room
Step Into Liquid
Dogtown And Z Boys
Cosmos
The World At War

If you didn't see March of the Penguins theatrically then you did miss something, because the visuals were truly stunning on a big screen. As a documentary, though, I think the DVD bonus documentary called "Of Penguins and Men" about the difficulties in making the film is actually a better documentary overall.

(But at least the English version of March of the Penguins had a standard narration and completely dumped the anthropomorphism of the original French version in which individual penguins "talked" to each other - that version sounds completely silly!)

Yeah, the fact that Super Size Me is 11th on their list of the top 25 documentaries OF ALL TIME really shows how me just how much weight I should give their collective opinion.

I had a PM discussion with Yakuza Bengoshi about Moore's films, because I didn't want this thread to turn into idiotic political bickering, so please don't take my reply here as something politically motivated.

However, backing up your opinion by pointing out that someone else agrees with you is ridiculous, especially when it comes to criticism of movies.

My definition of a documentary is apparently more restrictive in that I don't think a documentary should use lies (of omission or otherwise), outrageous distortions, and editing tricks to deceive the viewer. But that's just me (and the actual definition used in dictionaries, if not the one used by reputable organizations like the IDA or the Academy or the people at Cannes). In my opinion, propaganda films are just that: propaganda films, not documentaries.

So my definition says that Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11 aren't documentaries, but Sicko is (maybe). Although I disagree with Moore's opinion about health care, I think the information he presents is basically sound (except for the Gitmo scene, and some debatable opinions about the reality of the system in Canada), but overall it's information that it seems people should know--especially when they try to debate the subjects related to health care in the US and the rest of the world.

It should also be noted that Moore lost a lawsuit against him for a kind of character assasination in Roger and Me where some lawyer was portrayed in an inappropriate (and supposedly inaccurate) way. I don't know the guy in question, and I saw Roger and Me in maybe 1991, and I don't remember it very well, so I certainly can't claim to know what was accurate or not. There was also supposedly some manipulation of truth about whether he ever met with "Roger," the GM Chairman, but again, I don't really know the details, and because of all the controversy and finger-pointing whenever Moore's name gets brought up, it's difficult to know who to trust for info about it.

So, the 3 Moore films listed in the IDA's top 25 are arguably not documentaries at all.

Again, I don't want to turn this thread into poitical bickering that will just get it shut down. I am just trying to explain why some people don't consider some of his films "documentaries."

Just because some board decides that they are doesn't mean they are (they don't own the word, and they aren't free from bias, political or otherwise), and just because some dictionary says that they aren't documentaries doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't. But if you're going to accept F-9/11 as a documentary, you also have to accept Fahrenhype 9/11 and Michael Moore Hates America as documentaries, too (even if the latter two are terrible films, IMO, from what little I made it through of each). And before someone tries to paint me as an ideologue of some kind, I'll say that I think Outfoxed is a decent documentary in that it exposes some pretty inappropriate things going on at FNC.

If you want to discuss politics, then let's take it to PMs or another, appropriate, place. If you want to discuss the definition of a documentary, let's at least try to keep it respectful (like it has been so far).

My favorites

1. The WWII Documentaires of Humphrey Jennings ("Listen to Britain", "A Diary for Timothy", "Fires Were Started, I Was A Fireman", et al)
2. "Why We Fight"
3. "Still We Believe: The Boston Red Sox Movie"
4. "Farhenheit 451"
5. "Hell House"

I wasn't sure if the Jennings fils were out on DVD, so I did a search and was pleased to find that they were. I'm surprised that they haven't been mentioned as they are extraordinary! I highly recommend them.

Well, I guess any disagreement between us lies in the definition of documentary. For some, any film that portrays non-professional actors talking about a factual story constitutes a 'documentary'; my definition requires as little injection of the filmmaker's agenda and viewpoint as possible (knowing full well that some of those creep in). Fredrick Wiseman's work lets the topic speak for itself while he turns the camera on it, and the audience gets to draw its own conclusions. I was a bit disappointed in "Grey Gardens" when the filmmakers started talking to and asking questions of the mother and daughter. Up to that point, IMHO, they had done an exemplary job.

BTW, just watched "White Light/Black Rain." Very powerful. Had I not found this thread, I'm not sure I would have found that film.

Re: Top Five Documentaries on Dvd
 

I put my 6 best down in Jan 2006. Since then, in the past 4 years, the main 2 I could add is An Incovenient Truth and Man on Wire.

Re: Top Five Documentaries on Dvd
 

Wow, Darkhawk. Nice threadbump. Reminded me how few docs I've seen since the last go-around. I've got The Cove, Food, Inc, & Moore's Capitalism in my unwatched stack.

I went back and looked at the last couple of years of Oscar nominees and saw several that I'd like to check out, plus Gibney's Casino Jack as well as his latest on Spitzer...I'm not sure whether that has been shown localy yet. Just out of curiousity, how many recent docs have you seen?