Just b/c the novel is "ghost-written" by Brian Daley, are you stating that the original screenplay was as well? The screenplay is almost exactly like the novel. So all these Lucas lovers should be worshipping Brian Daley?

Also, my point was that the novel states that it is "From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker." Even if Brian Daley ghost-wrote the novel, are you saying that he made up that this was about Luke Skywalker without Lucas' approval? I seem to remember an old interview at the time where Lucas himself stated that the Star Wars trilogy was about Luke (evening naming the main character after himself).

Is this supposed to trap people into seeing how "silly" it is to request the originals? Given your response later in the thread, I can only assume it is. I don't get it.

Anyway, in answer to your question... with the exception of the "Lightsabers will be redone", yes... that would satisfy me completely. Frankly, what you've listed there is basically no different than any other major DVD release that gets cleaned up and perhaps an enhanced soundtrack.

I could even live with the sabers being "redone" I suppose. As long as they are done well (rumors from the MF board are that they are done extremely inconsistently in the new DVDs... with Vader's saber going from pink to red to pink again within scenes). But I'm also 100% satisfied with him just leaving the sabers alone.


I don't see why this is such a source of debate. Or why you feel the need to play wordsmith and point out that "it could be argued that you never wanted the true original theatrical films in the first place"?

Here's my position -- and I don't see that it is confusing or unreasonable. Some of these changes are fine, but overall, it drastically changes the tone of films that I love. There are dialog lines replaced, new actors inserted, distracting (and, sometimes, poorly integrated) CGI in many scenes, scenes that have been placed in the films but make no real sense (Han/Greedo, Han/Jabba, Vader's shuttle trip) and take away from the scenes around them.

All I want -- and follow me here -- is a high-quality DVD version of the films, the way they were originally. The way that people watched them for the 20 years before the SEs came out. That's it. No need to play semantics and say "Well, it was never ORIGINALLY in 6.1 sound... or it never ORIGINALLY said Episode IV on the crawl." Come on. I just want the films the way they were presented before he started f-ing with them in 1997. That is... No Hayden, no Han shoots first, no CGI critters running all over Mos Eisley, etc.

That's not too hard to understand. That's all people like me want. As a fan of the films, don't you want that included too? Or are you happy to never have the film in that form ever again, other than in inferior and/or bootleg form?

Alan Dean Foster, actually.

Um. . . . what? It was clear to me, even as a child that Jedi was *ALL* about Anakin's redemption. The Jedi returns to the light - hence the name of the movie. Once we had that piece, it made sense that the rest was driving that story arc.

And I figured this all out in 1983. Where have you been for the last 20 years.

As far as the Lucas apologists, I have to feel this may be an age thing. It just seems to me that if you were born after...say 1980, you just don't have the enormous personal nostalgia that someone of my age has. It is just a hypothesis.

Nope - not here. Was born in '69, was 7 when Star Wars came out - and I'm perfectly fine with the edits.

Man, if I would have written that a page or so ago it would have saved me about 6 paragraphs (and then people may have actually read it :p)

Seriously, that is pretty much what I was saying as well. Oh, and I was born in '77.

OMG. How on earth can I get these? I'll clear out my bank account if I have to.

Excuse me, but who are you to judge HOW it affected my life again? I don't care what age I saw it. Frankly, I don't even remember but upto now my aunts and uncles would tell me stories of how after seeing the movie, I was able to name all characters in it. I definitely remember seeing Empire in the theaters even if I was still in the Philippies back then. It's the same thing with Superman. Came out in December 98 here so it probably didn't get there 'til I don't know when but I do remember seeing it in the theaters and I'm still obsessed with the character. This is NOT an age thing. This is an attitude thing. Some people CHOOSE to accept the changes and move on, some don't.

that's why i've been excluding Jedi from my comments.
the revisonary nature of these films started with that movie- which is why i've never liked it.

it was also not the story that was originally intended to be told.
the story evolved into what it is in that film as a matter of practical convienence.
-the emperor was not be 'the big bad'
-not everyone was intended to live
-leia was not intended to be lukes sister
-the empire was not supposed to be fully destroyed

and on and on.

Lucas was tired of the demands of this material and decided to presumptously wrap everything up once and for all.
and he also took the opportunity to change the concepts involved in mid-stream, whcih create errors of continuity that had to be rectified with the SEs and prequels.

There is a difference between "moving on" and debating how the 2 (now 3 versions) compare. Simply put, the first version was much better than the rest two.

I apologize. Guess that came from some residual annoyance from yesterday's threadcrap-fest. I didn't mean to imply that we're not supposed to discuss the pros/cons of said changes.

I saw it at least 7 times when it came out in 1977 and I am also perfectly happy with these edits. I'm also perfectly happy with these edits, and especially all the restoration and cleanup. I have some bootleg copies of the originals on DVD but I'll probably just end up throwing those out anyhow.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by El-Kabong
Um. . . . what? It was clear to me, even as a child that Jedi was *ALL* about Anakin's redemption. The Jedi returns to the light - hence the name of the movie. Once we had that piece, it made sense that the rest was driving that story arc.

---

Whew. Good thing Lucas didn't go with the original title - Revenge Of the Jedi, huh?

I remember reading that Lucas' reasoning [pre-revisionistic lore] was that revenge wasn't a part of the Jedi nature.

And, I guess i'd have to disagree with your statement about Jedi being "*ALL*" about Anakin's redemption. My interpretation is that it was about Luke and the fine line he was walking between being a Jedi or turning to the "Dark Side Of the Force".

Anakin's "redemption" was just a by-product of Luke's strength.

Right on, dude. My thoughts exactly.

(And I have a "Revenge of the Jedi" poster in my theater, a piece of SW paraphernalia made even more interesting by this new title.)

All you need is this book to see exactly how much these movies changed from initial scripts to film reality. "A great many things" were changed along the way. Originally, it was about Annakin Starkiller and his father Kane & brother Deak....

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/03...CMZZZZZZZ_.jpg Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays

Check out an excerpt:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0345...25#reader-link

I don't see why it would, as it's no big secret to anyone that these versions are available out there if you do some "searching".

And as far as turning to the dark side, I think that Lucas is the one doing that... to his fans. :p

-k
###

Wait...Star Wars came out before 1997?














:D

I hate to say it but you don't realize how true your post is.

I was in Suncoast buying some movie poster frames when it was announced that Star Wars was coming to dvd. Of course the clerk (20 years old or so) asked me if i would like to pre-order. I advised that I would only buy if the original trilogy was included. He got confused & said that it is the original trilogy being released. I advised that it wasn't the original but the "special editions" which he agreed and said that the boxset would be a special edition. (I felt like starting "Who's On First.") He said that he did not realize the the "Special Edition" versions weren't the originals. I guess this is how Lucas wants it.

I wonder if kids from this generation will be clamoring for the versions they saw in the theaters in 97 thru 99 in a few years? :)

GuessWho -- you beat me to it. :)

I was just about to recommend that book -- fascinating must-read material for any fans of the trilogy (or scriptwriting in general). It is great to see how these films/stories evolved.

It's put together by Laurent Bouzereau -- they guy who has put together so many fantastic documentaries on LD/DVD.

Really? I don't think anyone should make this his life's work, but to just "accept it" seems like a pretty weak thing to do (and not very "Jedi" like to boot).

Go back and re-read ckolchak's post ablout "meekly accepting poor service. It's a good one.

I can actually respect someone who "likes" these changes even though I disagree, but to just accept them, even though you don't like them... weak.

Also, why has no-one commented on the brilliant Huxley quote posted by bboisvert?

Also, also, Jack, I'm not sure if you saw it in the other thread that got closed down, but thanks for offering to cover Pants' bet... I'm still going to try and contact him. I'll let you all know how it goes.

Eh. I retracted that a couple of posts after. Guess you missed that. And when did I say I didn't like the changes? I just said it doesn't irk me as much as it does others. If I did in a previous post, I mis-typed then.

I think I already covered it in another thread that I think he over-analyzes very inconsequential things IMO so we'll just agree to disagree.

As I mentioned before, I never said I didn't like 'em. And as for it being "weak", for me it's no more weaker than calling someone we all have never met personally names and presuming we knew his state of mind back in 1977 and now.

I think Josh already covered this one. Not everyone considers the films as "art". It's just entertainment, a much more involving one sure, but nothing to get all up in arms about.

Well, what else is there to do but accept the changes are made? Lucas isn't listening. He's not going to listen. Nearly 60,000 signatures didn't get him to listen. There's no subject more bitched about in the fanboy and movie world. He's doing exactly what I would do in his shoes, exactly what I want to. I'd preserve the original, but I'm not him.

If I honestly thought I'd could affect any sort of change by constantly railing against Greedo shooting first, I'd do it. But I'm not convinced in the least I would achieve anything.

I like most of the changes. There were 4-5 changes in the SEs that I didn't like. It wasn't enough to ruin the entire movies, nor was it enough to make me keep from buying the films.

bboisvert, you did see the wink smiley, did you not? Of course it was a trap. Nobody truly wants the originals as they existed in 1977. They want some stuff done to them, even if it's not changing lines or adding new scene. Maybe I should have asked if Lucas slapped them on a DVD-18 with minimal restoration and the original PCM track, would that satisfy you. Of course you wouldn't be satisfied. But at least you'd have the true originals, who are a product of their time.

You guys need to relax. You're gonna blow a gasket. We have no control over this stuff. Life goes on. I hope Lucas does wise up. But I'm not counting on it. So I'm giving it my all to try and enjoy it. Then again, maybe it helps I like most of the changes. Maybe it helps that I still love the films, even the SEs, even though there are some changes I don't love.

i'm not disagreeing with anything you say here-
but i do think there is a point at which he would start to consider relenting- the point at which he becomes a source of ridicule to the mainstream population.

i remember when Ted Turner was proudly trumpeting his digital box of crayons and you saw a new classic getting colorized and released on VHS every few months.
he started to take flack from all quarters, and it wouldn't have been uncommon to hear him mildly ridiculed on something like Johnny Carson or David Letterman.
there were many people, who had a voice in mainstream, conventional media, who were ticked off by that practice and public scorn eventually got him off that habit.

i would say until your average Wal-Mart shopper knows that the name Lucas is synonomous with all the bad things that we OT fasciasts say he is, then you are right -it won't do anygood.

if however, we start to see references in USA Today and Entertainment weekly that counter balance any enthusiasm for this release with the visible annoyance of lack of the originals, or even better- see either one panning this release solely because of his stance on the originals, then i think the first cracks in the damn are going to be seen, and eventually...somewhere down the line, the whole kit and kaboodle will come crashing down.

Actually, your retraction was that you didn't mean that it shouldn't be discussed... Regardless, I feel that ANYONE who pays money for these is ACCEPTING it. If your are in the group that is fine with the changes, then I'm absolutely cool with that. I actually have the biggest problem with anyone who dislikes these changes but is still going to make the purchase.

Perhaps he does, but it's all those little things that add up. It's all in your level of tolerance.

Great, I'm glad you like 'em. And I apologize for calling you "weak" if indeed, what you wrote isn't what you meant.

I consider film to be art AND entertainment. Just as I consider writing to be both as well. Is "Brave New World " art? Is it entertainment? And why? Who is it that makes that distinction?

And to Terrell, What's wrong with blowing a gasket? It's called passion, brother. I'm not going to burn any Lucasfilm flags, but I am going to continue to speak my mind in trivial forums like this.

I also believe that no amount of complaining will change Lucas's mind. But does that mean just bend over and accept it? I actually did try and just enjoy whatever he puts out. I have daughter that I took to see the SEs in the theater, we had a great time, she loved them. She had no idea about the changes and I'm not going to spoil that for her. But I do know about them, I DO notice them, and I DON'T like them. And, it may be pathetic, but Star Wars is more than a movie to me (as it obviously is too you as well), and I'm going to do the only thing I can about it:

1) I'm not going to buy the Special-Special Editions

2) I'm going to speak my mind when I have the time... be it on the net, or in the office, on at the ballgame...

Yes, but most of the OT fascists think Lucas wasn't responsible for anything good in the original trilogy anyway, and is nothing more than a no-talent hack. They think Gary Kurtz was the brains and genius behind the films, even though he created nothing in them. ;)

Not necessarily you, but some many people get incredible angry over what amounts to 2 hours pieces of entertainment. Art? Maybe.............probably. But will your life or my life change in any real way if we don't get the original Star Wars trilogy.

The way you go about not accepting it, is to not buy the DVDs. But, the overwhelming majority of Star Wars fans who hate the SEs, will buy them sooner or later, and we all know it. Nobody honestly believes a lover of the original trilogy is going to pass up the only DVDs of the original trilogy we've ever had. There may be a very small minority that do it, but they will be a drop in the bucket, and I would suggest there are other reasons they won't buy it, and not because they don't like the changes. Things like price, lack of money, etc.

If you don't buy the DVDs because you refuse to accept Lucas' changes, more power to ya. Maybe all these people who hate the prequels, yet own the DVD, should do the same. I'll salute anyone who sticks to their guns and doesn't buy a product they don't like. :)