AP Article: DVDs and CDs Not So Immortal After All *ROT*
05-05-04, 02:50 PM
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AP Article: DVDs and CDs Not So Immortal After All *ROT*
http://apnews1.iwon.com//article/200...D82CIN9G0.html
I know this has been discussed to death...
May 5, 1:59 PM (ET)
By PETER SVENSSON
Mark Irons holds out a damaged music CD in Corvallis, Ore., Monday, May 3, 2004. "CD rot" is a gradual deterioration of the data-carrying layer--it's not known for sure how common the blight is but it's just one of a number of reasons that optical discs may be a lot less long-lived than first thought.(AP Photo/Don Ryan)
Dan Koster was unpacking some of his more than 2,000 CDs after a move when he noticed something strange. Some of the discs, which he always took good care of, wouldn't play properly.
Koster, a Web and graphic designer for Queens University of Charlotte, N.C., took one that was skipping pretty badly and held it up to the light.
"I was kind of shocked to see a constellation of pinpricks, little points where the light was coming through the aluminum layer," he says.
His collection was suffering from "CD rot," a gradual deterioration of the data-carrying layer. It's not known for sure how common the blight is, but it's just one of a number of reasons that optical discs, including DVDs, may be a lot less long-lived than first thought.
"We were all told that CDs were well-nigh indestructible when they were introduced in the mid '80s," Koster says. "Companies used that in part to justify the higher price of CDs as well."
He went through his collection and found that 15 percent to 20 percent of the discs, most of which were produced in the '80s, were "rotted" to some extent.
The rotting can be due to poor manufacturing, according to Jerry Hartke, who runs Media Sciences Inc., a Marlborough, Mass., laboratory that tests CDs.
The aluminum layer that reflects the light of the player's laser is separated from the CD label by a thin layer of lacquer. If the manufacturer applied the lacquer improperly, air can penetrate to oxidize the aluminum, eating it up much like iron rusts in air.
But in Hartke's view, it's more common that discs are rendered unreadable by poor handling by the owner.
"If people treat these discs rather harshly, or stack them, or allow them to rub against each other, this very fragile protective layer can be disturbed, allowing the atmosphere to interact with that aluminum," he says.
Part of the problem is that most people believe that it's the clear underside of the CD that is fragile, when in fact it's the side with the label. Scratches on the underside have to be fairly deep to cause skipping, while scratches on the top can easily penetrate to the aluminum layer. Even the pressure of a pen on the label side can dent the aluminum, rendering the CD unreadable.
Koster has taken to copying his CDs on his computer to extend the life of the recordings. Unfortunately, it's not easy to figure out how long those recordable CDs will work.
Fred Byers, an information technology specialist at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, has looked at writeable CDs on behalf of government agencies, including the Library of Congress, that need to know how long their discs will last.
Manufacturers cite lifespans up to 100 years, but without a standardized test, it's very hard to evaluate their claims, Byers says. The worst part is that manufacturers frequently change the materials and manufacturing methods without notifying users.
"When you go to a store and buy a DVD-R, and this goes for CD-R as well, you really don't know what you're getting," he says. "If you buy a particular brand of disc, and then get the same disc and brand six months later, it can be very different."
This renders the frequently heard advice to buy name-brand discs for maximum longevity fairly moot, he says.
DVDs are a bit tougher than CDs in the sense that the data layer (or layers - some discs have two) is sandwiched in the middle of the disc between two layers of plastic. But this structure causes problems of its own, especially in early DVDs. The glue that holds the layers together can lose its grip, making the disc unreadable at least in parts.
Users that bend a DVD to remove it from a hard-gripping case are practically begging for this problem, because flexing the disc puts strain on the glue.
Rewriteable CDs and DVDs, as opposed to write-once discs, should not be used for long-term storage because they contain a heat-sensitive layer that decays much faster than the metal layers of other discs.
For maximum longevity, discs should be stored vertically and only be handled by the edges. Don't stick labels on them, and in the case of write-once CDs, don't write on them with anything but soft water-based or alcohol-based markers.
Also, like wine, discs should be stored in a cool, dry place. Koster's friend Mark Irons, of Corvallis, Ore., stored his CD collection in a cabin heated by a wood-burning stove. The temperature would range between 40 degrees and 70 degrees in the space of a few hours. Now, the data layer of some of his CDs looks as if it's being eaten from the outside.
Irons is still pretty happy with CD technology, since it beats vinyl LPs and tape for longevity. Now that he's moved his discs to an apartment with a more stable temperature, he's noticed that the decay has slowed.
"I'm hoping they'll hold out till that next medium gets popular, and everyone gets to buy everything over again," he says.
I know this has been discussed to death...
May 5, 1:59 PM (ET)
By PETER SVENSSON
Mark Irons holds out a damaged music CD in Corvallis, Ore., Monday, May 3, 2004. "CD rot" is a gradual deterioration of the data-carrying layer--it's not known for sure how common the blight is but it's just one of a number of reasons that optical discs may be a lot less long-lived than first thought.(AP Photo/Don Ryan)
Dan Koster was unpacking some of his more than 2,000 CDs after a move when he noticed something strange. Some of the discs, which he always took good care of, wouldn't play properly.
Koster, a Web and graphic designer for Queens University of Charlotte, N.C., took one that was skipping pretty badly and held it up to the light.
"I was kind of shocked to see a constellation of pinpricks, little points where the light was coming through the aluminum layer," he says.
His collection was suffering from "CD rot," a gradual deterioration of the data-carrying layer. It's not known for sure how common the blight is, but it's just one of a number of reasons that optical discs, including DVDs, may be a lot less long-lived than first thought.
"We were all told that CDs were well-nigh indestructible when they were introduced in the mid '80s," Koster says. "Companies used that in part to justify the higher price of CDs as well."
He went through his collection and found that 15 percent to 20 percent of the discs, most of which were produced in the '80s, were "rotted" to some extent.
The rotting can be due to poor manufacturing, according to Jerry Hartke, who runs Media Sciences Inc., a Marlborough, Mass., laboratory that tests CDs.
The aluminum layer that reflects the light of the player's laser is separated from the CD label by a thin layer of lacquer. If the manufacturer applied the lacquer improperly, air can penetrate to oxidize the aluminum, eating it up much like iron rusts in air.
But in Hartke's view, it's more common that discs are rendered unreadable by poor handling by the owner.
"If people treat these discs rather harshly, or stack them, or allow them to rub against each other, this very fragile protective layer can be disturbed, allowing the atmosphere to interact with that aluminum," he says.
Part of the problem is that most people believe that it's the clear underside of the CD that is fragile, when in fact it's the side with the label. Scratches on the underside have to be fairly deep to cause skipping, while scratches on the top can easily penetrate to the aluminum layer. Even the pressure of a pen on the label side can dent the aluminum, rendering the CD unreadable.
Koster has taken to copying his CDs on his computer to extend the life of the recordings. Unfortunately, it's not easy to figure out how long those recordable CDs will work.
Fred Byers, an information technology specialist at the National Institute of Standards and Technology, has looked at writeable CDs on behalf of government agencies, including the Library of Congress, that need to know how long their discs will last.
Manufacturers cite lifespans up to 100 years, but without a standardized test, it's very hard to evaluate their claims, Byers says. The worst part is that manufacturers frequently change the materials and manufacturing methods without notifying users.
"When you go to a store and buy a DVD-R, and this goes for CD-R as well, you really don't know what you're getting," he says. "If you buy a particular brand of disc, and then get the same disc and brand six months later, it can be very different."
This renders the frequently heard advice to buy name-brand discs for maximum longevity fairly moot, he says.
DVDs are a bit tougher than CDs in the sense that the data layer (or layers - some discs have two) is sandwiched in the middle of the disc between two layers of plastic. But this structure causes problems of its own, especially in early DVDs. The glue that holds the layers together can lose its grip, making the disc unreadable at least in parts.
Users that bend a DVD to remove it from a hard-gripping case are practically begging for this problem, because flexing the disc puts strain on the glue.
Rewriteable CDs and DVDs, as opposed to write-once discs, should not be used for long-term storage because they contain a heat-sensitive layer that decays much faster than the metal layers of other discs.
For maximum longevity, discs should be stored vertically and only be handled by the edges. Don't stick labels on them, and in the case of write-once CDs, don't write on them with anything but soft water-based or alcohol-based markers.
Also, like wine, discs should be stored in a cool, dry place. Koster's friend Mark Irons, of Corvallis, Ore., stored his CD collection in a cabin heated by a wood-burning stove. The temperature would range between 40 degrees and 70 degrees in the space of a few hours. Now, the data layer of some of his CDs looks as if it's being eaten from the outside.
Irons is still pretty happy with CD technology, since it beats vinyl LPs and tape for longevity. Now that he's moved his discs to an apartment with a more stable temperature, he's noticed that the decay has slowed.
"I'm hoping they'll hold out till that next medium gets popular, and everyone gets to buy everything over again," he says.
Last edited by Chad; 05-05-04 at 02:53 PM.
05-05-04, 03:18 PM
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"We were all told that CDs were well-nigh indestructible when they were introduced in the mid '80s," Koster says. "Companies used that in part to justify the higher price of CDs as well."
05-05-04, 03:47 PM
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At first, I thought that was a pic of Rob Zombie. 
I guess that rot is certainly possible, but some of my CDs are nearly 20 years old, and I've never had a problem. Just take care of them and store them properly. For some reason, when CDs were first introduced, music companies were telling us that CDs are indestructable and last forever, but that is so not true.
I guess that rot is certainly possible, but some of my CDs are nearly 20 years old, and I've never had a problem. Just take care of them and store them properly. For some reason, when CDs were first introduced, music companies were telling us that CDs are indestructable and last forever, but that is so not true.
05-05-04, 04:21 PM
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Re: AP Article: DVDs and CDs Not So Immortal After All *ROT*
Originally posted by Chad
Koster, a Web and graphic designer for Queens University of Charlotte, N.C., took one that was skipping pretty badly and held it up to the light.
Koster, a Web and graphic designer for Queens University of Charlotte, N.C., took one that was skipping pretty badly and held it up to the light.
05-05-04, 04:28 PM
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Irons is still pretty happy with CD technology, since it beats vinyl LPs and tape for longevity.
I have mint Lp's from the 70's that have lasted longer than some of my cd's.
05-05-04, 04:49 PM
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I have mint Lp's from the 70's that have lasted longer than some of my cd's.
I may not be able to listen to Ultimate Dance Party 1997 in 2017!
05-05-04, 04:51 PM
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Bah . . . damn the four letter minimum for "search"! This was a rather humorous thread a few years ago.
Conspiracy theorists, here we go again . . . I would say that if 20% of his collection was damaged then there obviously is some mitigating factor (such as his weed stash) causing the rot.
05-05-04, 04:56 PM
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Originally posted by Abob Teff
Bah . . . damn the four letter minimum for "search"! This was a rather humorous thread a few years ago.
Bah . . . damn the four letter minimum for "search"! This was a rather humorous thread a few years ago.
05-05-04, 06:30 PM
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I started selling off my CD collection a little at a time two years ago - at the time I had over 5,000 CDs, bought between 1986 and 2001.
As I sold them I ripped them to mp3 and checked the discs for scratches, etc., so that I could list them properly when I sold them.
Not one of the discs had any problems.
As I sold them I ripped them to mp3 and checked the discs for scratches, etc., so that I could list them properly when I sold them.
Not one of the discs had any problems.
05-05-04, 07:06 PM
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Originally posted by LBCrazyFool
I bet it didn't include a picture of Mark Irons.
I bet it didn't include a picture of Mark Irons.
05-05-04, 07:20 PM
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There are good media, and there are bad media...
That's like buying a CD, take it home and copy it, then return it to wal-mart, aka Stealing. Shouldn't you delete the MP3 format of that CD when you sold the CD? I'm not the RIAA or MPAA or the oh so law abidding admin or mod, you can do whatever you want w/ your stuff, I'm just curious.
Originally posted by jough
I started selling off my CD collection a little at a time two years ago - at the time I had over 5,000 CDs, bought between 1986 and 2001.
As I sold them I ripped them to mp3 and checked the discs for scratches, etc., so that I could list them properly when I sold them.
Not one of the discs had any problems.
I started selling off my CD collection a little at a time two years ago - at the time I had over 5,000 CDs, bought between 1986 and 2001.
As I sold them I ripped them to mp3 and checked the discs for scratches, etc., so that I could list them properly when I sold them.
Not one of the discs had any problems.
Last edited by FuzzyBallz; 05-05-04 at 07:22 PM.
05-05-04, 07:39 PM
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Yes, I deleted the files as I sold them.
I just listened to them each all the way through before they went out the door, but instead of listening to them by playing the CD, I listened to the mp3 and prepared the CD for shipping.
I just listened to them each all the way through before they went out the door, but instead of listening to them by playing the CD, I listened to the mp3 and prepared the CD for shipping.
05-05-04, 07:40 PM
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And perhaps my Walmart differs from yours, but they won't take a return on an opened CD in pretty much any store anywhere in the universe.
05-05-04, 07:41 PM
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Walmart's Return Policy
BOOKS, MOVIES, MUSIC & VIDEO GAMES
- Media: CDs, DVDs, audiotapes, videotapes and video games must be returned unopened within 45 days of receipt.
- Books: Books must be returned unused and unmarked within 45 days of receipt.
05-05-04, 07:52 PM
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Okay, I was under the impression that the "pinpricks" in old CDs aren't anything to be concerned about. I have some like that that don't skip.
05-05-04, 07:53 PM
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Originally posted by mstorlie01
Media: CDs, DVDs, audiotapes, videotapes and video games must be returned unopened within 45 days of receipt.
Media: CDs, DVDs, audiotapes, videotapes and video games must be returned unopened within 45 days of receipt.
Are the Walmart police going to come after me?
05-05-04, 08:21 PM
#24
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I've been looking at some other photos on the AP wire that go with this story. I would post one, but I'm not home right now and don't have the URL for the image hosting site I use memorized.
Anyway, one of the photos shows the label side of a They Might Be Giants CD and the "rot" clearly looks like the label side was scuffed to hell, causing the problem.
Count me as another one who has CDs dating from the very earliest days of the firmat and I've never had a single problem that wasn't caused by my own carelessness.
Anyway, one of the photos shows the label side of a They Might Be Giants CD and the "rot" clearly looks like the label side was scuffed to hell, causing the problem.
Count me as another one who has CDs dating from the very earliest days of the firmat and I've never had a single problem that wasn't caused by my own carelessness.
05-05-04, 09:15 PM
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I used to buy a lot from CH. I was told at a CD Warehouse, (I go there a lot and they know me well), that CH puts pin holes in DVDS and CDS to ensure the discs don't last long. They held one of the dvds up to a circular light, and showed me. They said they can tell the difference between store bought and CH. I don't know how true this is, it is just what was told...
