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Widescreen TV Owners

View Poll Results: Do you ever crop/compress/spread 4:3 DVDs to fit your widescreen TV?
No! Never! Who do you take me for?!
108
49.77%
Occasionally
36
16.59%
All the time
73
33.64%
Voters: 217. You may not vote on this poll

Widescreen TV Owners

 
Old 02-01-04, 08:18 AM
  #51  
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I have a RP HDTV. I changed from a P lay S tation 2. I don't need some salesperson to confirm what is happening in my living room. Also, I think that all who say "I stretch 4:3" should never ever bitch about P&S ever again. Hypocrites.
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Old 02-01-04, 09:03 AM
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Originally posted by JLyon1515
Could someone post links to images of this supposedly great stretch mode on Toshiba TVs? I'd like to see how the image looks.
Go to page 26 of this pdf Toshiba instruction manual and zoom in to the "Theater Wide 1" illustration. This will show you the geometric manipulation. This process has different names with different companies. I think Sony calls its version "Wide Zoom", etc.

http://media-server.amazon.com/media...L000001695.pdf

By the way, this illustration does not take into account the "extra" side information you get on this mode from the "overscanned" picture that you never get to see in 4:3 mode so that the general horizontal stretching is not as "bad" as it looks on the illustration and the white area on the sides would be wider on both sides in reality.

Last edited by baracine; 02-01-04 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 02-01-04, 09:06 AM
  #53  
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Baracine

Until we get those answers, the burning question is now this: IS THERE ANYBODY OUT THERE WHO OWNS A REAR-PROJECTION WIDESCREEN TV AND WHOSE DVD PLAYER GENERATES VERTICAL BLACK SIDE BARS IN 4:3 MODE? Anybody?

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If I play a 4x3 DVD on my Panasonic RP-82 or my Pioneer DVL-700(LD/DVD player) thru my Mitsubishi 65711, the vertical gray bars are generated by the TV.
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Old 02-01-04, 09:24 AM
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Originally posted by Qui Gon Jim
I have a RP HDTV. I changed from a P lay S tation 2. I don't need some salesperson to confirm what is happening in my living room. Also, I think that all who say "I stretch 4:3" should never ever bitch about P&S ever again. Hypocrites.
Thank you for sharing. I'm still trying to decode what you said and your preceding post: "When I had PS2 hooked up, I got white bars, the panny has black bars. Same settings. I do stretch broadcast TV because the bars are white and I don't want to risk burn in."

I edited the following after researching PS2 and finding out it was primarily (in this context) a DVD player and not a monitor, widescreen or otherwise, although it comes with a choice of LCD screen attachments.

(edit king, that's me)

So what you're saying is this: You used to use a PS2 station as a DVD player. When you did, you got white/gray bars on the sides of the 4:3 picture on a widescreen monitor. That doesn't tell me what monitor you were using.

Then you got - or you always had - a rear-projection HDTV which you connected to a different DVD player, possibly a good-quality Panasonic, which generates black (not gray, not white) bars on the sides of a 4:3 picture even though the RPTV still diplays white/gray bars on the side on the normal TV picture. That is very interesting because I haven't seen yet a rear-projection TV capable of producing genuinely black bars in this mode (4:3 DVD or normal TV). What I need to know now is the model of your RP HDTV and, if possible, the brand/model of your DVD player so I can look into this combination for myself.

By "trolling" around HT sites, I also found out that certain models of RP TVs offer to prevent burn-in - which they say is a real problem in 4:3 mode - by shifting slowly and in small increments the 4:3 picture left and right during projection so as to prevent "image retention". This sounds frightening but hey, maybe it works!

I would really like to find a DVD player that can generate black bars, if that's possible, in 4:3 mode, on my Toshiba 40" RP.

As you can see from reading the posts on this thread, rear-projection widescreen TV owners' preference for the stretch mode is not just a question of being "uneducated, hypocritical, evil bastards who either drink too much beer or sip too much wine (choose one) in their trailer park or palatial villa (choose one)", it also stems from the very real problem of burn-in which is related to the capacity of either the TV's or the DVD player's or both's to generate those life-saving black bars.

Last edited by baracine; 02-01-04 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 02-01-04, 09:33 AM
  #55  
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Originally posted by Qui Gon Jim
I have a RP HDTV. I changed from a P lay S tation 2. I don't need some salesperson to confirm what is happening in my living room. Also, I think that all who say "I stretch 4:3" should never ever bitch about P&S ever again. Hypocrites.
No, there's a big difference.
With P&S, you lose picture that can never be recovered on the disk no matter how hard you try.
With stretch, you're just enhancing what's already there, nothing is lost. It's a beautiful thing.
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Old 02-01-04, 09:35 AM
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Originally posted by sparks
[If I play a 4x3 DVD on my Panasonic RP-82 or my Pioneer DVL-700(LD/DVD player) thru my Mitsubishi 65711, the vertical gray bars are generated by the TV. [/B]
Thanks. But the operating word here is "gray bars". I get gray bars on my Toshiba too. They are just an absence of projected info and they do cause burn-in. But is there anybody out there whose rear-projection TV can be said to produce genuinely black side bars?
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Old 02-01-04, 09:45 AM
  #57  
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Originally posted by baracine
Thanks. But the operating word here is "gray bars". I get gray bars on my Toshiba too. They are just an absence of projected info and they do cause burn-in. But is there anybody out there whose rear-projection TV can be said to produce genuinely black side bars?
It's pretty hard for any front or rear projector to produce 'true' black. If it can do that, then you're spending a ton of $$$ on it.
And I can't beleieve there are people on this board who would take things out of their OAR to 'fill' their screen. But hey, to each his own...

Last edited by steebo777; 02-01-04 at 09:49 AM.
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Old 02-01-04, 09:52 AM
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Originally posted by steebo777
It's pretty hard for any front or rear projector to produce 'true' black. If it can do that, then you're spending a ton of $$$ on it.
The black is black enough in the projected picture itself. But I think the problem, about side bars, is that they reveal the transparent nature of the rear-projection screen itself which is basically a piece of glass with an inside mirror sheen and is not composed of individual, independent "cells" or "pixels" like cathode-ray tube, plasma or LCD screens, which can be turned on or off without affecting the next one.

Last edited by baracine; 02-01-04 at 10:47 AM.
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Old 02-01-04, 10:40 AM
  #59  
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I stretch all the 4:3 stuff from TV simply to avoid the dreaded burn-in factor. Thankfully, more and more shows are being broadcast widescreen...but local and many cable channels probably won't be doing that for a number of years...
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Old 02-01-04, 11:24 AM
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Originally posted by Qui Gon Jim
II think that all who say "I stretch 4:3" should never ever bitch about P&S ever again. Hypocrites.
Well, I think that the issue is really about choice. I won't sit here and ridicule those who CHOOSE to buy fullscreen versions of DVD's (although I do give friends a hard time about it) but I can't abide by studios that refuse to issue OAR versions of their movies. I don't care if it's a seperate release, or a 2 disc set (ala Finding Nemo) as long as they aren't both on the same disc! Besides, slightly stretching a 4X3 image to 16:9 isn't nearly as bad as mangling a 2:35:1 movie like Lord of the Rings to fit a 4x3 display!

Of course, depending on your display, there is the slight possiblity of screen burn in (or uneven pixel wear, if you prefer) with non-stretched 4X3 material. I find that more important than worrying if I'm watching That 70's Show the way the director intended!
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Old 02-01-04, 11:53 AM
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46" Mitsubishi and I expand/stretch everything.
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Old 02-01-04, 03:36 PM
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Originally posted by baracine
Thanks. But the operating word here is "gray bars". I get gray bars on my Toshiba too. They are just an absence of projected info and they do cause burn-in. But is there anybody out there whose rear-projection TV can be said to produce genuinely black side bars?
You are not understanding. I have a Panasonic WS RP HDTV. When I had PS2 hooked up, grey/white bars were displayed in 4:3 mode. When I updated to a decent progressive scan player, the player generates black bars during 4:3 playback. The playe r is also a Panasonic.

They are just an absence of projected info and they do cause burn-in.
This is accuate, but the "danger" of burn in is said to be exaggerated, mostly by salespeople at stores scaring their customers into a costly service contract.

Does anyone know someone with a RP tv that has experienced burn in from regular use?
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Old 02-01-04, 03:41 PM
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Originally posted by SRGilbert
Besides, slightly stretching a 4X3 image to 16:9 isn't nearly as bad as mangling a 2:35:1 movie like Lord of the Rings to fit a 4x3 display!
I don't really care if people do it, but to complain and moan about "JSP buying full frame movies, mangling the director's vision" while saying "yeah, I stretch Citizen Kane so it fills my screen" strikes me as hypocritical. It is true that you are not losing" any of the picture, but you are distorting the picture to fit a particular screen size.
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Old 02-02-04, 10:09 AM
  #64  
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Originally posted by baracine
That is very interesting because I haven't seen yet a rear-projection TV capable of producing genuinely black bars in this mode (4:3 DVD or normal TV). What I need to know now is the model of your RP HDTV and, if possible, the brand/model of your DVD player so I can look into this combination for myself.
The current line of Hitachi CRT Rear Projections will generate black side bars on 4x3 material. By default the side bars are grey but you can switch them to black in the TV's user menu. I have a Hitachi 51S700.

Originally posted by baracine
By "trolling" around HT sites, I also found out that certain models of RP TVs offer to prevent burn-in - which they say is a real problem in 4:3 mode - by shifting slowly and in small increments the 4:3 picture left and right during projection so as to prevent "image retention". This sounds frightening but hey, maybe it works!
This is what Mitsubishi does and it is not a bad idea. It will make uneven phosphor wear less noticeable since the the point where the screen transitions from picture to black always changes. The fact that the bars are always in the same place makes it easier to see the transition line where the bars normally are. You will still get burn-in or uneven phosphor wear if you watch too much 4x3 material with the side bars.

The most important thing to do with a CRT RPTV is properly calibrate the contrast and vary your viewing. If you do both of these then burn-in should be a non-issue.


Originally posted by baracine
it also stems from the very real problem of burn-in which is related to the capacity of either the TV's or the DVD player's or both's to generate those life-saving black bars.
Life-saving black bars is not accurate at all. The TV generates grey bars for a reason, they actually help reduce the chances of burn-in. Burn-in is not burning an image into the tubes, a more accurate term is "uneven phosphor wear". Phosphor based displays, which include CRTs and plamas, have a limited lifespan and wear over time. Black bars cause no wear in the CRT's phosphors while the 4x3 image in the center is causing normal phosphor wear. Grey bars try to even things out by using the portion of the screen displaying the bars about the average amount of the 4x3 center portion. However, this can still cause burn-in since the the side grey bars is still constant and never changing.

Overall, burn-in gets way too much attention. If you properly set your contrast and vary your viewing, burn-in shouldn't be a problem.

Last edited by The Void; 02-02-04 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 02-02-04, 10:27 AM
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Honestly, I don't watch that much 4:3 material. When I do, I try to do the justified thing. I guess I'm just used to it. First time I watch something, however, I usually make sure it's OAR. After that, I use the justified feature, and the stretch doesn't bother me.

I guess I wouldn't want to experience burn in or anything like that, and so I try to minimize that as much as possible.
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Old 02-02-04, 10:54 AM
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Originally posted by baracine
I'm not... My humble opinion: If Jean Renoir could have used widescreen, he would have.
But in this case, he didn't.

Last edited by DonnachaOne; 02-02-04 at 10:56 AM.
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Old 02-02-04, 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by The Void
The current line of Hitachi CRT Rear Projections will generate black side bars on 4x3 material. By default the side bars are grey but you can switch them to black in the TV's user menu. I have a Hitachi 51S700.
Thank you for the info. But I have a few problems with this. Pardon my ignorance once again but I didn't know a TV could be both "rear-projection" and "cathode ray tube". By tube, I assume a hermetically sealed tube. Am I wrong? I have a rear-projection TV with no CRT - even the occasional June bug can wander in behind the screen. So I only get "grey/white bars" and I don't think I can ever change that. What do you think? And what should I call my TV if not "rear-projection"?

I already have subtle burn-in marks from a particular local all-day news channel (CP 24) that uses boxes on its screen. Recently, they have tried to alleviate the problem by having the vertical and horizontal blacks bars fluctuate in colour but I still avoid that channel.

About contrast: My TV is permanently set in the Toshiba "Theatre" mode, which reduces contrast and makes the picture much more realistic besides.
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Old 02-02-04, 11:10 AM
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Can't believe no one has mentioned 14:9. Just slightly crops the top and bottom. Well if James Cameron can do it, why can't I?
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Old 02-02-04, 11:26 AM
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This is accuate, but the "danger" of burn in is said to be exaggerated, mostly by salespeople at stores scaring their customers into a costly service contract.
I don't know if I agree with this statement - both the manufactuer's warranty and the one I've seen from Best Buy specifically state that it doesn't cover "Burn In".
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Old 02-02-04, 11:37 AM
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Originally posted by Shannon Nutt
I don't know if I agree with this statement - both the manufactuer's warranty and the one I've seen from Best Buy specifically state that it doesn't cover "Burn In".
I've heard of a few Best Buys employees promising things the replacement plans don't actually cover.

I watch things in their original aspect ratio, except when a friend comes over. He used to complain about my widescreen movies on 4:3 TVs, now he complains about 4:3 DVDs on my widescreen TV.

Family Guy stretched didn't look that bad, but a few of my discs look pretty strange. While watching a 4:3 movie, I'll usually switch to widescreen for a few minutes as sort of a screen saver.
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Old 02-02-04, 11:54 AM
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Originally posted by baracine
Thank you for the info. But I have a few problems with this. Pardon my ignorance once again but I didn't know a TV could be both "rear-projection" and "cathode ray tube". By tube, I assume a hermetically sealed tube. Am I wrong? I have a rear-projection TV with no CRT - even the occasional June bug can wander in behind the screen. So I only get "grey/white bars" and I don't think I can ever change that. What do you think? And what should I call my TV if not "rear-projection"?
It sounds like you have a traditional rear-projection like I do. Your TV still has CRTs (cathode ray tubes). A traditional tube TV has one tube connected directly to the screen. Your rear-projection's projectors are CRTs. Instead of one CRT, your TV has 3 separate CRTs, one for red, green, and blue. A rear-projection TV's CRTs are not connected to the screen, they sit toward the bottom of the set and project an image on a mirror that reflects onto the screen for you to view. In between is open space where bugs can crawl around or whatever.

There are now other types of rear-projection TVs, DLP and LCD. These don't have traditional CRT tubes to project the image.

I'm not an expert on TVs but I've done alot of research and learned the basics of different TV technologies before buying one. I'm sure I know more than the average salesman.

Originally posted by baracine
About contrast: My TV is permanently set in the Toshiba "Theatre" mode, which reduces contrast and makes the picture much more realistic besides.
This may be ok, or not. I'm not familiar with Toshiba's preset modes. Contrast is really white level, it will control the intesity of whites. You want it set to the lowest point where white is still white. On most rear-projections, this can be really low. My Hitachi has a contrast range from 0 to 100. Out of the box it was set to 100, wayyy to high. I used Avia and Digital Video Essentials and now have it set to 21. Whites are still bright white and the picture looks great.

Your contrast may be set too high if you burned-in a station logo, but that depends on how long you have that station on. If you leave it on all day almost every day, then it will still burn in regardless.

Last edited by The Void; 02-02-04 at 11:58 AM.
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Old 02-02-04, 12:09 PM
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Originally posted by Pants
Stretch Mode = Joe 16x9 Pack
Exactly. I've had a Hitachi 61" 16:9 HDTV since December 2001 and I'd never even given serious thought to stretching a 4:3 image.

I don't like B&W movies colorized, widescreen movies panned & scanned, or foreign-language movies dubbed, so why would I want 1.33:1 programming streched?

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Old 02-02-04, 12:40 PM
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Originally posted by baracine
I'm not... My humble opinion: If Jean Renoir could have used widescreen, he would have. Every one of his scenes is so crammed with people and lateral action (people moving left and right) that the widescreen stretch makes the film even more enjoyable.

Jean Renoir certainly turned to colour with a vengeance in almost all his later films and was an early proponent of the 1.66:1 aspect ratio (for 35 mm spherical film) which eventually became the European standard.
I agree! Also, why should I have to watch Rules of the Game in black and white? Come on! If I'm paying good money it should look the way I want it to, director's intent be damned.

I have a feeling that Renoir would've wanted it to be seen in color and widescreen. Come to think of it, he probably would've also liked to hear it in English.
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Old 02-02-04, 01:02 PM
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I do the stretch dealio on my Toshiba RPTV. Those grey bars on the side are way too distracting. If they were black, I probably wouldn't bother with stretching.

It doesn't really look all that distorted.

I also fear the burn in as my manual says it's not covered under the warranty because it constitutes misuse.
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Old 02-02-04, 01:15 PM
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Originally posted by Sean Cullen
I agree! Also, why should I have to watch Rules of the Game in black and white? Come on! If I'm paying good money it should look the way I want it to, director's intent be damned.

I have a feeling that Renoir would've wanted it to be seen in color and widescreen. Come to think of it, he probably would've also liked to hear it in English.
... You forgot Dolby 5.1!

This thread does not have as a goal to convert irreductible dogmatists like you but to vent the hypocrisy of "purists" who don't own a widescreen TV but still insist they would slavishly adhere to the principle of OAR if they did, which in fact means undying fidelity to a ratio (1.33:1) that is only one of 91 possible historical ratios, according to the book "Wide Screen Movies" by Carr and Hays.

As you can see by the poll results, despite the very probable intrusion of a great number of uninvited non-owners who have cast their vote (and therefore lied) for ideological reasons, I think I have demonstrated that stretching has become a way of life for the majority of widescreen TV owners, whether you like or not, and not just because we are all uneducated and uncultured yahoos who voted for Bush and drive SUVs.

Also please note the inclusion of The Rules of the Game in this widescreen film festival as one of the forerunners of the expanded screen: http://www.theasc.com/studio/index.h...iley.html~main

Last edited by baracine; 02-02-04 at 02:30 PM.
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