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So NOW does everyone understand Scarface's "hip-hop" influence...?

So NOW does everyone understand Scarface's "hip-hop" influence...?

 
Old 10-04-03, 02:13 PM
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Originally posted by mzupeman2 [br]It's like saying you don't like the colors yellow,orange,gree,blue, and then saying 'i dont like ANY colors at all because they all suck' when you only experienced the main colors just because they are exposed to you the most. I don't know if that anology makes sense to you or not but I know what it means, so shush
You have the wrong analogy comparison there. Rap is not like colors yellow, orange, green, blue as you say. Rap is equivalent to the color black (no offense or pun intended). Black takes all the colors into it to make its color as how Rap steals tunes from other sources. The color black is pretty dull and boring if you ask me and you can say the same thing with Rap... utterly boring. I can't stand it. Hip Hop is a slow type of Rap but still Rap... gives me a headache to hear any of this. If you want to experience the other colors then stick with mainstream pop or rock music. You'll get more appreciation and feel to the music similar to how you get a feel from different colors like red or blue and so on.
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Old 10-04-03, 02:15 PM
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My analogy wasn't saying that. My analogy was saying that just because you see the typical stereotype because of those no talent *******s on TV everybday, doesn't mean that there isn't good rappers and/or hip hoppers out there who aren't involved in gangs and murder and stealing and such, who HAVE talent. I was saying that you can't judge the WHOLE genre just because you don't like the mainstream music you hear. The colors I used were the main colors you hear about (symbolizing mainstream), and the rest of the colors (everybody else) are what im saying you cant say you dont like just because of some others. I was hoping i wouldn't have to explain it but, ah well.
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Old 10-06-03, 10:44 AM
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SHEESH!!!!

To all those who vehemently and eloquently argued for the merits in hip-hop, give it up.

To all those who vehemently and eloquently argued that not ALL rappers are untalented buffoons, ditto.

To all those who vehemently and eloquently argued against blanket, sweeping indictments against a group because of the actions of few, likewise.

There are some people out there, like some in this thread, who will NEVER have an open mind about some things, rap and hip-hop included (notice I separated the two, cuz I know the difference also, ). Those same people will never even TRY to listen or understand.

Just because someone who is white doesnt like a type of music that has TRADITIONALLY been the bailiwick of blacks, doesnt mean they're racist.

I'm VERY sure they are some racist folks(even though they'd NEVER admit to it) lurking in this thread, and some of them have bashed rap and hip-hop. because of it.

I say this, I like all types of music, rap and hip-hop, R&B, and rock, classical and pop, and even some country.

That being said, all types of music have some negative connotation attached to them, even if one has to stretch a bit to do so.

If someone doesnt want to buy Scarface or whatever else for whatever reason, let him/her make that decision. Their loss, or their gain.

I think Scarface is a FANTASTIC movie. Did then, do now.

I think it's a copout to blame rap or any other genre of music for the ills of society, the same way I think it's a copout to blame video games or movies for the same.

Sorry for the long rant...

Peace
Shalom
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Old 10-06-03, 11:42 AM
  #154  
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This has to be one of the most judgmental, narrow-minded threads I've ever read. Where do you people get off? The socio-economic dynamics between rap music, inner-city crime, the music industry, and the slave history of African-Americans are complex and can't be summed up in "hip-hop causes crime" soundbites. Laughing at how simplistic and deluded the rappers in the Scarface documentary sound? Take a hard look at your own dismissive postings before you take your next guffaw.

We live in a capitalist society ruled by supply and demand. Once rappers have album sales in the multi-platinum range, their audience is predominately white, middle-class kids. The music industry is a business. They support what sells. And white middle-class kids support gangster rap. They didn't create the crime-stricken poverty of the ghetto, but they sure as hell are a key component in its glorification.

So why do white middle-class kids want to hear violent, profanity-laced music that glorifies the rise and fall of street criminals? Maybe it's the same reason white, middle-aged men want to watch a violent, profanity-laced movie glorifying the rise and fall of a street criminal. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. And if anyone wants to start with the "Scarface is a morality play, a cautionary lesson, etc, etc", save it. DePalma's Scarface is violent pornography for macho thrill seekers.

As for the musical worth of hip hop... Do you want to sound like every old fogey from every past generation who couldn't understand what those crazy kids were listening to? Do you think this new music is just a bunch of noise made by talentless thieves? Repeat the following to join your stodgy forebearers of history:

Originally posted by EPKJ
Blues/Swing/Jazz/Be-Bop/Rock And Roll/Heavy Metal/Rap is a style developed to enable no-talent bums to become wealthy. Blues/Swing/Jazz/Be-Bop/Rock And Roll/Heavy Metal/Rap musicians cannot sing, cannot play instruments, cannot compose melodies, and cannot write lyrics sans profanity. I pity the youth who grow up with this crap. It is not music. Everytime I hear certain songs from my youth, pleasant memories are triggered and emotions are brought forth which have an uplifting effect on me. Thirty years from now, what adult is going to wax romantic about Blues/Swing/Jazz/Be-Bop/Rock And Roll/Heavy Metal/Rap?
And if you're righteously indignated because rappers "just steal" their music, maybe you should familiarize yourself with a) the complexity of modern sampling and music production, b) the amount of money provided via hip-hop royalties to sampled artists, c) the exploitation of black musicians by white musicians and the music industry for most of the twentieth century. For a little perspective on the state of commercial hip-hop here's a quote from Sage Francis' "Mullet":

Hip hop flipped from being artistic to a pop hit
Mainstream took control and we cannot stop it
It's a black art being manipulated by white controllers
Just like rock and roll is....
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Old 10-06-03, 03:02 PM
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That last post made wading through all the other posts worthwhile...
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Old 10-06-03, 09:43 PM
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Agreed...

Originally posted by ehonauer
This has to be one of the most judgmental, narrow-minded threads I've ever read. Where do you people get off? The socio-economic dynamics between rap music, inner-city crime, the music industry, and the slave history of African-Americans are complex and can't be summed up in "hip-hop causes crime" soundbites. Laughing at how simplistic and deluded the rappers in the Scarface documentary sound? Take a hard look at your own dismissive postings before you take your next guffaw.

We live in a capitalist society ruled by supply and demand. Once rappers have album sales in the multi-platinum range, their audience is predominately white, middle-class kids. The music industry is a business. They support what sells. And white middle-class kids support gangster rap. They didn't create the crime-stricken poverty of the ghetto, but they sure as hell are a key component in its glorification.

So why do white middle-class kids want to hear violent, profanity-laced music that glorifies the rise and fall of street criminals? Maybe it's the same reason white, middle-aged men want to watch a violent, profanity-laced movie glorifying the rise and fall of a street criminal. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. And if anyone wants to start with the "Scarface is a morality play, a cautionary lesson, etc, etc", save it. DePalma's Scarface is violent pornography for macho thrill seekers.

As for the musical worth of hip hop... Do you want to sound like every old fogey from every past generation who couldn't understand what those crazy kids were listening to? Do you think this new music is just a bunch of noise made by talentless thieves? Repeat the following to join your stodgy forebearers of history:



And if you're righteously indignated because rappers "just steal" their music, maybe you should familiarize yourself with a) the complexity of modern sampling and music production, b) the amount of money provided via hip-hop royalties to sampled artists, c) the exploitation of black musicians by white musicians and the music industry for most of the twentieth century. For a little perspective on the state of commercial hip-hop here's a quote from Sage Francis' "Mullet":

Hip hop flipped from being artistic to a pop hit
Mainstream took control and we cannot stop it
It's a black art being manipulated by white controllers
Just like rock and roll is....
Best, and most eyeopening post in this thread bar none!
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Old 10-06-03, 10:29 PM
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Originally posted by ehonauer
This has to be one of the most judgmental, narrow-minded threads I've ever read. Where do you people get off? The socio-economic dynamics between rap music, inner-city crime, the music industry, and the slave history of African-Americans are complex and can't be summed up in "hip-hop causes crime" soundbites. Laughing at how simplistic and deluded the rappers in the Scarface documentary sound? Take a hard look at your own dismissive postings before you take your next guffaw.

We live in a capitalist society ruled by supply and demand. Once rappers have album sales in the multi-platinum range, their audience is predominately white, middle-class kids. The music industry is a business. They support what sells. And white middle-class kids support gangster rap. They didn't create the crime-stricken poverty of the ghetto, but they sure as hell are a key component in its glorification.

So why do white middle-class kids want to hear violent, profanity-laced music that glorifies the rise and fall of street criminals? Maybe it's the same reason white, middle-aged men want to watch a violent, profanity-laced movie glorifying the rise and fall of a street criminal. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. And if anyone wants to start with the "Scarface is a morality play, a cautionary lesson, etc, etc", save it. DePalma's Scarface is violent pornography for macho thrill seekers.

As for the musical worth of hip hop... Do you want to sound like every old fogey from every past generation who couldn't understand what those crazy kids were listening to? Do you think this new music is just a bunch of noise made by talentless thieves? Repeat the following to join your stodgy forebearers of history:



And if you're righteously indignated because rappers "just steal" their music, maybe you should familiarize yourself with a) the complexity of modern sampling and music production, b) the amount of money provided via hip-hop royalties to sampled artists, c) the exploitation of black musicians by white musicians and the music industry for most of the twentieth century. For a little perspective on the state of commercial hip-hop here's a quote from Sage Francis' "Mullet":

Hip hop flipped from being artistic to a pop hit
Mainstream took control and we cannot stop it
It's a black art being manipulated by white controllers
Just like rock and roll is....

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Old 10-07-03, 01:20 AM
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"This has to be one of the most judgmental, narrow-minded threads I've ever read. Where do you people get off? The socio-economic dynamics between rap music, inner-city crime, the music industry, and the slave history of African-Americans are complex and can't be summed up in "hip-hop causes crime" soundbites. Laughing at how simplistic and deluded the rappers in the Scarface documentary sound? Take a hard look at your own dismissive postings before you take your next guffaw."

Who said hip hop causes crime? Who said the problems arising from ghetto life aren't complex?

The whole point of my posting in this thread is that rap/hip hop/whatever and the whole the whole "ghetto culture" mentality IS NOT GOOD FOR SOCIETY, IN GENERAL.

You can argue against this point till you're blue in the face, and it will continue to reek of desperate justification. How can it not be? Did you watch that vile segment on the Scarface dvd?


"We live in a capitalist society ruled by supply and demand. Once rappers have album sales in the multi-platinum range, their audience is predominately white, middle-class kids. The music industry is a business. They support what sells. And white middle-class kids support gangster rap."

I see lots of assumptions going on in this paragraph. I don't doubt that many white kids listen to this stuff. But, "White middle-class kids support gangster rap"? How do you know this? Because you read an article in Rolling Stone magazine or something?

Even if that's true, and it might very well be, what's your point? I don't give two squirts of piss about the color of the person buying it.

"They didn't create the crime-stricken poverty of the ghetto, but they sure as hell are a key component in its glorification."

More generalization. But hey, to a degree, you're right! (See kids, sometimes generalizations are necessary). But...what's your point? That gangsta rap isn't bad because white kids support it?


"So why do white middle-class kids want to hear violent, profanity-laced music that glorifies the rise and fall of street criminals? Maybe it's the same reason white, middle-aged men want to watch a violent, profanity-laced movie glorifying the rise and fall of a street criminal. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. And if anyone wants to start with the "Scarface is a morality play, a cautionary lesson, etc, etc", save it. DePalma's Scarface is violent pornography for macho thrill seekers."


Look, I dunno what you're on about, really. It seems like you and I would agree on this issue. Scarface is a very trashy flick. Check. The point is, these gangsta rap jerkwads have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality, which is really the whole idea behind this thread.

"As for the musical worth of hip hop... Do you want to sound like every old fogey from every past generation who couldn't understand what those crazy kids were listening to? Do you think this new music is just a bunch of noise made by talentless thieves? Repeat the following to join your stodgy forebearers of history:"


I always find this argument amusing and insulting at the same time. Insulting, because the one making the argument assumes you're too dumb to know the difference between changing taste resulting from age and a legitamate concern for the way American society is headed.

Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that my concern over impressionable children idolizing drug dealers and murderers is the result of my being an "old fogey"?


"And if you're righteously indignated because rappers "just steal" their music, maybe you should familiarize yourself with a) the complexity of modern sampling and music production, b) the amount of money provided via hip-hop royalties to sampled artists, c) the exploitation of black musicians by white musicians and the music industry for most of the twentieth century. For a little perspective on the state of commercial hip-hop here's a quote from Sage Francis' "Mullet":

Hip hop flipped from being artistic to a pop hit
Mainstream took control and we cannot stop it
It's a black art being manipulated by white controllers
Just like rock and roll is.... "




Again, what exactly is your point? You might be right and you might be wrong but how does that really have any bearing the sad state of the rap music industry today?

I'm trying to understand, really. It seems like you agree that there's a LOT wrong with rap music. Yet, like some others in this thread, you seem hesitant to condemn bad behavior favoring instead to redirect blame. What does it matter that whites are behind the curtain, pulling the strings? Or blacks for that matter?

The bottom line is gangsta rap and by extention hip hop is not a positive influence on society, IN GENERAL.

Are there rap groups out there who try to send a positve message reagrding anti-violence, etc? Sure there are. Are they all over MTV? No. Is the vast majority of what is being represented by mass media as "hip hop" the peace-loving, Zulu Nation variety? No.

So where does that leave us?

Last edited by NearysEpiphany; 10-07-03 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 10-07-03, 02:18 AM
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Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
"This has to be one of the most judgmental, narrow-minded threads I've ever read. Where do you people get off? The socio-economic dynamics between rap music, inner-city crime, the music industry, and the slave history of African-Americans are complex and can't be summed up in "hip-hop causes crime" soundbites. Laughing at how simplistic and deluded the rappers in the Scarface documentary sound? Take a hard look at your own dismissive postings before you take your next guffaw."

Who said hip hop causes crime? Who said the problems arising from ghetto life aren't complex?

The whole point of my posting in this thread is that rap/hip hop/whatever and the whole the whole "ghetto culture" mentality IS NOT GOOD FOR SOCIETY, IN GENERAL.

You can argue against this point till you're blue in the face, and it will continue to reek of desperate justification. How can it not be? Did you watch that vile segment on the Scarface dvd?


"We live in a capitalist society ruled by supply and demand. Once rappers have album sales in the multi-platinum range, their audience is predominately white, middle-class kids. The music industry is a business. They support what sells. And white middle-class kids support gangster rap."

I see lots of assumptions going on in this paragraph. I don't doubt that many white kids listen to this stuff. But, "White middle-class kids support gangster rap"? How do you know this? Because you read an article in Rolling Stone magazine or something?

Even if that's true, and it might very well be, what's your point? I don't give two squirts of piss about the color of the person buying it.

"They didn't create the crime-stricken poverty of the ghetto, but they sure as hell are a key component in its glorification."

More generalization. But hey, to a degree, you're right! (See kids, sometimes generalizations are necessary). But...what's your point? That gangsta rap isn't bad because white kids support it?


"So why do white middle-class kids want to hear violent, profanity-laced music that glorifies the rise and fall of street criminals? Maybe it's the same reason white, middle-aged men want to watch a violent, profanity-laced movie glorifying the rise and fall of a street criminal. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. And if anyone wants to start with the "Scarface is a morality play, a cautionary lesson, etc, etc", save it. DePalma's Scarface is violent pornography for macho thrill seekers."


Look, I dunno what you're on about, really. It seems like you and I would agree on this issue. Scarface is a very trashy flick. Check. The point is, these gangsta rap jerkwads have trouble distinguishing fantasy from reality, which is really the whole idea behind this thread.

"As for the musical worth of hip hop... Do you want to sound like every old fogey from every past generation who couldn't understand what those crazy kids were listening to? Do you think this new music is just a bunch of noise made by talentless thieves? Repeat the following to join your stodgy forebearers of history:"


I always find this argument amusing and insulting at the same time. Insulting, because the one making the argument assumes you're too dumb to know the difference between changing taste resulting from age and a legitamate concern for the way American society is headed.

Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that my concern over impressionable children idolizing drug dealers and murderers is the result of my being an "old fogey"?

Dude, get some perspective.

GOOD GOD TWO OF THE BEST POSTS YET, and I have a feeling it's going to start this whole thing up again. It did kinda die down a smidge. But now I have to put in my two cents here.

I totally agree with this guys reply, first of all. I don't know about other people but assuming I'm talking about a certain 'race' when it comes to me saying what I've been saying all this time: "Mainstream hip/hop, rap, is a bad influence on society due to the fact that a lot of these mainstream artists consider themselves gangsters, and hold a movie like Scarface as something more than just a made up fantasy film, they see it as something that is influential to their lives because they live in a world full of delusional gangs that exist on the street, and the more money you have = the more power you have" and so on and so forth. Never once did I mention a race. So I see no meaning in your comment about how middle-class white kids support rap and hip hop, whatever.

And I never once said that all of this 'gang' related stuff with the drugs and dirty money and murder originated with these genres of music, but these genres of music that exist in the mainstream really do see being a gangster a way of life apparantly. OF COURSE the problems that are linked between rap music and inner city crime and etc etc, are complex. When there's a world out there, that exists based on the idea that people should divide themselves by associating with a 'gang', doing lots of business with drugs, murdering those who dont fly straight, and try and not have it be an influence to anybody who is around it, of course it's complex. But when these issues exist in any part of the world, when there's a percentage that can see a film like Scarface and 'identify' with it and say 'yeah, that's totally me', really has to make you wonder what kind of things are going on in their life when they say something like that, when the movie they are talking about is all about crime and greed and power and drugs and murder. Is it an image? Or is it for real? You can object to the facts all you want but there's much more crime and murder going on in these genres, than in any other genre. Again, it's all based on facts. Compare the killings within the rap/hip hop mainstream area, to murders that are associated in any other genre.

So you say that 'white' boys listen to gangster rap for the same reason 'white' men want to watch violent gangster movies? And that reason is for thrill seeking? Well of course it is. Isn't that the point of seeing ANY movie? To laugh or to get thrills and chills or to be scared and feel any and every emotion! Your assumption here is that the 'white' society is blaming the 'black' society for 'gangster rap' and associated crime, while the 'white' society are clearly being hypocritical because they too, love movies like Scarface. I'll put down the race issues with this, and I'll reword it. People not associated in the business of hip hop and rap, who may not like it, are blaming societal issues on the rap hip hop genre, but should really not say anything as they love these movies themselves. Not a bad point, but the flaw with this point is this: The people not affiliated with the industry or listen to it very much, mostly watch this movie and see it just for that, thrills. They DON'T feel like this movie is a way of life, and portray this film as an influence to be looked up to as the 'bible' of how to live.

And of course, the 'old fogey' comment. You know, there's plenty of other music out there besides the mainstream hip/hop and rap that I speak of. There's all kinds of rock, alternative, heavy metal, grunge, whatever. There's country music, there's techno music, the list goes on and on. To say that I'm becoming 'stodgy forebearer of history', implying and insulting that we're going to be nothing but lame, lame, lame when we grow up, JUST because I or somebody else MAY think that rap is just crap? Since when does not liking a specific type of music mean you're becoming an old fogey? Saying that I or somebody else, is turning into an 'old fogey' because of an opinion on my taste of music, or anybody elses taste of music, is like saying I will go to hell when I die because I picked the wrong religion. I guess you're going to grow up to be the wise man who just may save us all from ourselves later in life, as you clearly must listen to hip/hop and rap. Look out rockers, ehonauer is cool now.

In a thread that blames a lot of us for being judgemental, and narrow minded, you sure did a good job of doing a lot of that yourself eho. And as far as the socio economic dynamics being 'complex', you sure seemed to try and sum it up pretty good anyway when talking about the 'middle aged boy/man' group. Don't tell us that we need to take a hard look at our own dismissive postings, when you've done nothing but the same thing to try and put us in our place. So hopefully this 'guffaw' of mine is good enough for you, sir.
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Old 10-07-03, 04:19 PM
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Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Who said hip hop causes crime?
Uh, check out this interchange:

"Drive-by shootings didn't really become big till the 1990's when rap music hit it big. ANd by big I mean MTV played nothing but rap and did away with the hard rock music. And don't remember reading about drives-bys during the 60's, 70's or 80's in the gehetto areas in Chicago like I did during the 90's and today."
-wm lopez

"Yup, more factual statements to back it all up. This is all very true. It's again that whole 'gangster' image thing again creating an influence."
-mzupeman2

Factual statement: Rap music causes drive-bys. Huh? It wasn't the scourge of poverty and crack addiction, the hopeless kids from broken homes with no positive role models embracing gang lifestyles. Or a flow of automatic weapons into the ghettos. It was those darn rappers with their scratching and their rhyming.

Look, gangster rap is the reflection of those events, not their cause. People write songs about their lives and their environment. If you were a middle-class student from the suburbs, you'd write songs about alienation and end up in Radiohead. If you grew up as a gang member and started to make music - honest music - about the world around you, you'd be writing songs about being a gang member. Nowadays, you'd grow up with other rappers who didn't rap about guns and cars, but you'd get a record deal and the others wouldn't.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
The whole point of my posting in this thread is that rap/hip hop/whatever and the whole the whole "ghetto culture" mentality IS NOT GOOD FOR SOCIETY, IN GENERAL.
We're getting bogged down because of terms, but there's a difference between hip hop (the larger street culture including scratching, breakdancing and graffiti), rap (a form of music) and gangsta rap (a subgenre of rap). I know you and others don't care about it so you're not very interested in the distinctions, but it's like me saying "LaserDiscs and by extension all home video formats have not been successful in the marketplace". It's an untrue statement.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
I see lots of assumptions going on in this paragraph. I don't doubt that many white kids listen to this stuff. But, "White middle-class kids support gangster rap"? How do you know this? Because you read an article in Rolling Stone magazine or something?
I've worked in the music industry. I've seen sales figures. Once rap artists go multi-platinum, the majority of their audience is white. But since you seem not to be able to trust the statements of someone you disagree with :

"Rap and hip-hop albums totaled 84 million Ė 14 percent Ė of 2002ís sales, enough to overtake pop as musicís second-most popular genre. The yearís two top-selling albums were by rappers Eminem and Nelly, and SoundScan figures show 70 percent of hip-hop consumers are white."
-Media Life (a trade magazine on marketing)

So if you're wondering why these gangsters are all over your TV and billboards, it's not the thugs down on your street corner forcing their culture on you. It's the market demands of white suburbia.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Even if that's true, and it might very well be, what's your point? I don't give two squirts of piss about the color of the person buying it.

More generalization. But hey, to a degree, you're right! (See kids, sometimes generalizations are necessary). But...what's your point? That gangsta rap isn't bad because white kids support it?
No, I'm saying that the predominance of gangster imagery in the media is a by-product of white fascination with them. You may not give two squirts about who buys gangster rap, but if you want to know why rap is such a powerful, ubiquitous force, it's not because of those urban youth you seem so upset with. If every white teenager in America stopped buying rap music tomorrow, you'd hear/see it as often as you do polka.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
I always find this argument amusing and insulting at the same time. Insulting, because the one making the argument assumes you're too dumb to know the difference between changing taste resulting from age and a legitamate concern for the way American society is headed.
It's fine to like or dislike any kind of music. That's not what I object to. It's people who judge an entire genre of music to be morally wrong and/or completely worthless to human society that I object to. The people who burned Beatles and Rolling Stones records in a big pile in the 60s felt like they were concerned citizens doing the right things to eradicate the ills of society. That's an extreme example, but that's what happens when you can't imagine someone might get a positive benefit out of something you don't understand. Making music is not dangerous. It never will be. Even if you're singing about killing people (like Johnny Cash did for most of his career). And I don't just listen to hip hop. I'll listen to anything I think is good - Patsy Cline, Slayer, Chopin, Tom Waits, Wu-Tang Clan. Music is just music. And a lot of good music was thought to be controversial, evil, or harmful to society when it was first heard.

I get uncomfortable when people start to mix up fantasy (music/movies) and life (crime/poverty). There are plenty of instances in the past 30 years where violent movies (and music) have been linked to violent behavior - A Clockwork Orange, Taxi Driver, Apocalypse Now are films that have been linked to various shooting sprees. Heavy metal was widely blamed for Satanism, violence, and suicide among teenagers in the 80s. Rather than seeing disaffected youths' attraction to these films and music as a symptom of their already existing emotional state, many wish to just persecute people for expressing themselves. Movies and music are reflections of our culture - like it or not.

Artists have the right to reflect their world and the society they live in. Most gangster rappers were raised in abject poverty in one of the richest countries in the world - a country that preaches and prides itself on materialism, ambition and aggression. Just as gangster films are a dark reflection of the American Dream, so is gangster rap. I say this as someone who doesn't particularly like gangster rap's domination of the genre, although I will say that in the right hands (Ice Cube, Wu-Tang) gangster rap can be a powerful window into American life.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Can you honestly tell me, with a straight face, that my concern over impressionable children idolizing drug dealers and murderers is the result of my being an "old fogey"?
No, but your refusal to understand (not enjoy, maybe not even appreciate, but understand) youth culture has damaged your ability to discern what is harmful from what is not. You've painted rap and hip hop with a pretty broad brush as being pure evil. As a parent, I want to understand what my kids are listening to so I can talk to them about it, instead of engaging in
kneejerk condemnations. Plus, if we spent less time talking about why drug dealers or murderers are wrong (which is pretty self-evident) and more about why children are idolizing them then maybe we'd get somewhere.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Again, what exactly is your point? You might be right and you might be wrong but how does that really have any bearing the sad state of the rap music industry today?

I'm trying to understand, really. It seems like you agree that there's a LOT wrong with rap music. Yet, like some others in this thread, you seem hesitant to condemn bad behavior favoring instead to redirect blame. What does it matter that whites are behind the curtain, pulling the strings? Or blacks for that matter?

The bottom line is gangsta rap and by extention hip hop is not a positive influence on society, IN GENERAL.
Gangsta rap has been used by the music, fashion and advertising industries to make money. A LOT of money. My beef is less with gangsta rappers than with these industries that exploited what was once a genuine form of self-expression for disaffected youth and turned it into a hollow ministrel show. My interest is not in excusing bad behavior - I think the bad behavior is pretty self-evident and is barely worth commenting on. My interest is in looking at the forces at work behind some of these cultural disguises. I'd also like to add that some gangster rappers aren't even gangsters - they're just playing a role - kind of like Al Pacino.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Are there rap groups out there who try to send a positve message reagrding anti-violence, etc? Sure there are. Are they all over MTV? No. Is the vast majority of what is being represented by mass media as "hip hop" the peace-loving, Zulu Nation variety? No.

So where does that leave us?
It leaves us where we were in the first place. With a media that seeks to reinforce and perpetrate violent stereotypes. With a popular music audience that hungers for violent stereotypes. With a general population that thinks all rappers (and by extension, black teenagers) are thugs, and that hip hop has had no positive impact on the world. Oh well.

Sorry, mzupeman2, I'm not gonna be able to respond to your points, but I hope some of them were covered in my responses above.
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Old 10-07-03, 08:12 PM
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I never said though, or nearyepiphany, that rap music CAUSES these crimes. We just say that gangster music is an influence. And ever since gangster rap really came into play, there's been a heightened number of drive bys and etc etc. Everything we've said is all 'in general'. We're not labelling an entire genre here. We're talking where it exists... and that's mainly the mainstream. And I only constantly say 'hip/hop and/or rap' because I don't want some enthusiast jumping down my back that I used the wrong term for the music stylings. I do know that there are plenty and plenty of rappers and hip hoppers out there that are cool and clean. And I do know, that not ALL gangster rappers are really 'gangsters' in real life. But getting all 'technical' on me isn't going to change the same overall point:

GANGSTER RAP, THERE ARE MORE GANG RELATED CRIMES AND INCIDENTS THAT GO AS FAR AS MURDER, IN THIS GENRE OF MUSIC, THAN ANY OTHER KIND OF MUSIC.

This is a FACT! That's not saying that EVERYBODY in gangster rap is gangsters, thats not including everybody in any way shape or form. The entire POINT is that this is how it is, and end of story! The discussion in this thread is not about the industries, but how some of these 'gangsters' portray scarface is something that's not immoral and outrageously fantasy, but as an 'influence' and 'something to learn from'. We've become way too obsessed in this thread with blaming people for what they are saying about certain cultures and genres of music. But I know nearysepiphany and myself are going on about 'generalization' due to facts. We're not pinning the tail on every donkey in the business. It's just that, this is dominant in this genre of music more than others, and Scarface is looked upto in this genre for the wrong reasons. No opinions or no matter how much experience you have working in a music industry, is going to change this. That's just the way it is. Nobody said crime was STARTED by these guys, but that there's definitely a good deal of it going on there.
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Old 10-08-03, 12:17 AM
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Talk about getting bogged down in minutiae.

I don't even know where to start in taking apart ehonauer's last post. If I've ever seen more erroneus, labyrinthine, and plain old beside-the-point arguments in one place then I don't remember where.

Here's how I'd break it down, for the sake of brevity:

1) Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?

The great question pondered for centuries by...well...those folks who like to ponder such things.

For me, the answer is fairly simple: Both. While not all crime is caused by art, surely there are criminals out there who are inspired by it. The earlier example made regarding drive-by shootings may have seem riduculous to some of you, but there is no denying that this type of activity started gaining "popularity" during the rise of gangsta rap.

Now, I'm not saying one is the sole cause of the other. Surely however, there is a correlation. Rap may not have started the "gangsta lifestyle" and drive by shootings but it sure as hell is helping to perpetuate it.

2) White kids support gansta rap!

This comment is neither here nor there. I see it as a kind of strawman argument employed to cloud the real issue: gangsta rap is here, it sucks, and it's bad for our kids. Black and white.

3) You're just an old fogey!

Allow me at least one quote:
"No, but your refusal to understand (not enjoy, maybe not even appreciate, but understand) youth culture has damaged your ability to discern what is harmful from what is not. You've painted rap and hip hop with a pretty broad brush as being pure evil. As a parent, I want to understand what my kids are listening to so I can talk to them about it, instead of engaging in
kneejerk condemnations."



I stand by my comments from my earlier post. I'll also add that children are not merely short adults. They cannot decide for themselves what is or is not harmful. That's what parents are for. Sitting down with your ten year old and explaining why Ice Cube wants to "smoke dem niggaz" or why Luke Wilson (showing my age a bit?) wants to "**** dat ho in de azz" or why Ice T wants to be a "cop killa" is just not something that a parent should have to do in any civilized society.

I can see the arguments coming a mile away so i'll "pop a cap" in one of them ahead of time: I am going to do my absolute damndest to shelter my daughter from these things, because I know that as a parent, that's my job.

My concern is that there are thousands, perhaps millions of parents out there who are not so concerned, and our society as a whole will continue to disintegrate.

We've come a long way from Keith Moon driving his car into a hotel smimming pool. A long way.


4) Rappers just want to show their world as it really is, warts and all!

An airheaded and somewhat pretentious justification if there ever was one. The whole "holding a mirror to society" argument is almost always presented without any kind of context or reasoning beyond the statement itself. Just because one is telling it like it is doesn't automatically grant "artistic merit"...what is the message behind the words? And, IN MY OPINION, 9 times out of 10 the message is not something the world needs.



P.S.
"I think the bad behavior is pretty self-evident and is barely worth commenting on. My interest is in looking at the forces at work behind some of these cultural disguises."

A fine interest if, suppose, one is doing an academic study or wants to practice armchair sociology. Back here in the real world, it would be appreciated if bad behavior where considered "worth commenting on."

Last edited by NearysEpiphany; 10-08-03 at 12:39 AM.
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Old 10-08-03, 01:01 AM
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NearysEpiphany I think is my new best friend on this board, lmao.
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Old 10-08-03, 08:43 AM
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Originally posted by ehonauer
Uh, check out this interchange:

"Drive-by shootings didn't really become big till the 1990's when rap music hit it big. ANd by big I mean MTV played nothing but rap and did away with the hard rock music. And don't remember reading about drives-bys during the 60's, 70's or 80's in the gehetto areas in Chicago like I did during the 90's and today."
-wm lopez

"Yup, more factual statements to back it all up. This is all very true. It's again that whole 'gangster' image thing again creating an influence."
-mzupeman2

Factual statement: Rap music causes drive-bys. Huh? It wasn't the scourge of poverty and crack addiction, the hopeless kids from broken homes with no positive role models embracing gang lifestyles. Or a flow of automatic weapons into the ghettos. It was those darn rappers with their scratching and their rhyming.

Look, gangster rap is the reflection of those events, not their cause. People write songs about their lives and their environment. If you were a middle-class student from the suburbs, you'd write songs about alienation and end up in Radiohead. If you grew up as a gang member and started to make music - honest music - about the world around you, you'd be writing songs about being a gang member. Nowadays, you'd grow up with other rappers who didn't rap about guns and cars, but you'd get a record deal and the others wouldn't.



We're getting bogged down because of terms, but there's a difference between hip hop (the larger street culture including scratching, breakdancing and graffiti), rap (a form of music) and gangsta rap (a subgenre of rap). I know you and others don't care about it so you're not very interested in the distinctions, but it's like me saying "LaserDiscs and by extension all home video formats have not been successful in the marketplace". It's an untrue statement.


I've worked in the music industry. I've seen sales figures. Once rap artists go multi-platinum, the majority of their audience is white. But since you seem not to be able to trust the statements of someone you disagree with :

"Rap and hip-hop albums totaled 84 million Ė 14 percent Ė of 2002ís sales, enough to overtake pop as musicís second-most popular genre. The yearís two top-selling albums were by rappers Eminem and Nelly, and SoundScan figures show 70 percent of hip-hop consumers are white."
-Media Life (a trade magazine on marketing)

So if you're wondering why these gangsters are all over your TV and billboards, it's not the thugs down on your street corner forcing their culture on you. It's the market demands of white suburbia.



No, I'm saying that the predominance of gangster imagery in the media is a by-product of white fascination with them. You may not give two squirts about who buys gangster rap, but if you want to know why rap is such a powerful, ubiquitous force, it's not because of those urban youth you seem so upset with. If every white teenager in America stopped buying rap music tomorrow, you'd hear/see it as often as you do polka.



It's fine to like or dislike any kind of music. That's not what I object to. It's people who judge an entire genre of music to be morally wrong and/or completely worthless to human society that I object to. The people who burned Beatles and Rolling Stones records in a big pile in the 60s felt like they were concerned citizens doing the right things to eradicate the ills of society. That's an extreme example, but that's what happens when you can't imagine someone might get a positive benefit out of something you don't understand. Making music is not dangerous. It never will be. Even if you're singing about killing people (like Johnny Cash did for most of his career). And I don't just listen to hip hop. I'll listen to anything I think is good - Patsy Cline, Slayer, Chopin, Tom Waits, Wu-Tang Clan. Music is just music. And a lot of good music was thought to be controversial, evil, or harmful to society when it was first heard.

I get uncomfortable when people start to mix up fantasy (music/movies) and life (crime/poverty). There are plenty of instances in the past 30 years where violent movies (and music) have been linked to violent behavior - A Clockwork Orange, Taxi Driver, Apocalypse Now are films that have been linked to various shooting sprees. Heavy metal was widely blamed for Satanism, violence, and suicide among teenagers in the 80s. Rather than seeing disaffected youths' attraction to these films and music as a symptom of their already existing emotional state, many wish to just persecute people for expressing themselves. Movies and music are reflections of our culture - like it or not.

Artists have the right to reflect their world and the society they live in. Most gangster rappers were raised in abject poverty in one of the richest countries in the world - a country that preaches and prides itself on materialism, ambition and aggression. Just as gangster films are a dark reflection of the American Dream, so is gangster rap. I say this as someone who doesn't particularly like gangster rap's domination of the genre, although I will say that in the right hands (Ice Cube, Wu-Tang) gangster rap can be a powerful window into American life.



No, but your refusal to understand (not enjoy, maybe not even appreciate, but understand) youth culture has damaged your ability to discern what is harmful from what is not. You've painted rap and hip hop with a pretty broad brush as being pure evil. As a parent, I want to understand what my kids are listening to so I can talk to them about it, instead of engaging in
kneejerk condemnations. Plus, if we spent less time talking about why drug dealers or murderers are wrong (which is pretty self-evident) and more about why children are idolizing them then maybe we'd get somewhere.



Gangsta rap has been used by the music, fashion and advertising industries to make money. A LOT of money. My beef is less with gangsta rappers than with these industries that exploited what was once a genuine form of self-expression for disaffected youth and turned it into a hollow ministrel show. My interest is not in excusing bad behavior - I think the bad behavior is pretty self-evident and is barely worth commenting on. My interest is in looking at the forces at work behind some of these cultural disguises. I'd also like to add that some gangster rappers aren't even gangsters - they're just playing a role - kind of like Al Pacino.



It leaves us where we were in the first place. With a media that seeks to reinforce and perpetrate violent stereotypes. With a popular music audience that hungers for violent stereotypes. With a general population that thinks all rappers (and by extension, black teenagers) are thugs, and that hip hop has had no positive impact on the world. Oh well.

Sorry, mzupeman2, I'm not gonna be able to respond to your points, but I hope some of them were covered in my responses above.

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Old 10-08-03, 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Talk about getting bogged down in minutiae.

I don't even know where to start in taking apart ehonauer's last post. If I've ever seen more erroneus, labyrinthine, and plain old beside-the-point arguments in one place then I don't remember where.
Well, I'm glad you're here to set me to straight, O Knowledgeable One.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany

Here's how I'd break it down, for the sake of brevity:

1) Does art imitate life or does life imitate art?

The great question pondered for centuries by...well...those folks who like to ponder such things.

For me, the answer is fairly simple: Both. While not all crime is caused by art, surely there are criminals out there who are inspired by it. The earlier example made regarding drive-by shootings may have seem riduculous to some of you, but there is no denying that this type of activity started gaining "popularity" during the rise of gangsta rap.

Now, I'm not saying one is the sole cause of the other. Surely however, there is a correlation. Rap may not have started the "gangsta lifestyle" and drive by shootings but it sure as hell is helping to perpetuate it.[/B]
How much of a correlation? Can you quantify it? Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence that drive-bys increased as the popularity of rap has increased? I know you feel that this is on the "well, duh" level of assumption, but I think you'll find that gang-related crime statistics track more closely with economic indicators, drug abuse rates, recidivism rates, and law enforcement effectivity than with record sales. Take Portland, OR for example. Their gang-related homicide rate hit a peak of 70 in 1987 - well before gangster rap was popular. By 2000 it had dropped to 22. Year over year during that time the popularity of rap surged. Last year rap was the second best selling genre of music. So, by your correlative logic, the amount of drive-by shootings in the US should've been at its highest rate since 1988, when the first widely popular gangster rap album was released. It's not.

My point here isn't to deny any correlation - neither you nor I can prove it or measure it. But if you want to do something to reduce gang violence, blaming rap isn't the solution. You're barking up the wrong tree. Funding after-school programs for inner-city kids will do more to eliminate gang violence than 100 million parents who hate rap. It is easier to hate rap, though.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
2) White kids support gansta rap!
This comment is neither here nor there. I see it as a kind of strawman argument employed to cloud the real issue: gangsta rap is here, it sucks, and it's bad for our kids. Black and white.
There are a lot of things that are bad for our kids. Razor blades, The Exorcist, cigarettes. Some things are meants for adults, other things are meant for children. I wouldn't show Scarface to a 10-year-old. There are Disney films that I won't show my child because I don't agree with what's depicted. What's your point?

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany

3) You're just an old fogey!

I stand by my comments from my earlier post. I'll also add that children are not merely short adults. They cannot decide for themselves what is or is not harmful. That's what parents are for. Sitting down with your ten year old and explaining why Ice Cube wants to "smoke dem niggaz" or why Luke Wilson (showing my age a bit?) wants to "**** dat ho in de azz" or why Ice T wants to be a "cop killa" is just not something that a parent should have to do in any civilized society.

My concern is that there are thousands, perhaps millions of parents out there who are not so concerned, and our society as a whole will continue to disintegrate.
Your 10 year old is going to have to have a lot of difficult things explained to her in this "civilized society" we have here. Gangster rap is one of them. People have been claiming society is disintegrating for hundreds of years. Yet it never seems to, does it?

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany

4) Rappers just want to show their world as it really is, warts and all!

An airheaded and somewhat pretentious justification if there ever was one. The whole "holding a mirror to society" argument is almost always presented without any kind of context or reasoning beyond the statement itself. Just because one is telling it like it is doesn't automatically grant "artistic merit"...what is the message behind the words? And, IN MY OPINION, 9 times out of 10 the message is not something the world needs.
My airheaded and pretentious justification is one of the founding principles of our country. If you don't like it, move to Iran. I hear they have a lot of control over which expressions have "artistic merit" there. Free speech means musicians get to say things you don't agree with, they get to say things you think are harmful. Ice Cube has every right to say he wants to "smoke dem niggaz" in a song. If he goes and does it, then he needs to end up in prison. They're two separate issues.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
A fine interest if, suppose, one is doing an academic study or wants to practice armchair sociology. Back here in the real world, it would be appreciated if bad behavior where considered "worth commenting on." [/B]
It's a fine interest if you want to understand the root causes of something, instead of mixing up the symptoms and their causes and then going off half-cocked on a messsage board. There's nothing academic about it at all. My world's as real as yours is, bub.

Originally posted by mzupeman2
GANGSTER RAP, THERE ARE MORE GANG RELATED CRIMES AND INCIDENTS THAT GO AS FAR AS MURDER, IN THIS GENRE OF MUSIC, THAN ANY OTHER KIND OF MUSIC.
I agree, but this assertion unleashed a flood of rap-bashing on this thread that was uncalled for. What I'm saying is that the music and the musicians are the least of our problems. Here's a quote from KRS-One - one of those non-ganster rappers who never appears on MTV...


You know what Jam Master Jay's death means? It means that no matter how large you get in rap, you still are poor, you still live in poverty. And the number one cause of violence is poverty... Jam Master Jay: no will, no life insurance ó nothing! We used to sit down and talk about this all the time. He'd say, "Yo, we're RUN DMC, but I'm still broke. I'm running around with Aerosmith, I'm going to the Grammies, but at the end of the day, I go right back to the hood and I'm still struggling to pay my bills everyday. Why?"

-KRS-One

The difference between Jam Master Jay and any other rock musician who's been exploited by the music industry is that the rock musician won't return to an environment suffused by crime, poverty, drug addiction, and gang violence. The violence endemic in rap is related to the problems of the environment it emerged from - not to the culture of hip-hop itself.

Last edited by ehonauer; 10-08-03 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 10-08-03, 02:27 PM
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"How much of a correlation? Can you quantify it? Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence that drive-bys increased as the popularity of rap has increased? I know you feel that this is on the "well, duh" level of assumption, but I think you'll find that gang-related crime statistics track more closely with economic indicators, drug abuse rates, recidivism rates, and law enforcement effectivity than with record sales. Take Portland, OR for example. Their gang-related homicide rate hit a peak of 70 in 1987 - well before gangster rap was popular. By 2000 it had dropped to 22. Year over year during that time the popularity of rap surged. Last year rap was the second best selling genre of music. So, by your correlative logic, the amount of drive-by shootings in the US should've been at its highest rate since 1988, when the first widely popular gangster rap album was released. It's not."


When you have statistics with results that aren't in the thousands, I dunno that any kind of regression analysis can explain the variability of said results over a ten year period. Then again, I'm not a statistitian. Also, I'm wondering what those numbers would look like in Los Angeles.


"But if you want to do something to reduce gang violence, blaming rap isn't the solution. You're barking up the wrong tree. Funding after-school programs for inner-city kids will do more to eliminate gang violence than 100 million parents who hate rap. It is easier to hate rap, though."

How about both? Y'now, I'm starting to think you're being willfully obtuse. You seem to want to get specific and quantify everything only when it suits your needs. Now it's my turn:

Gang violence is only one of the problems I associate with gangsta rap. My concern is of a more general variety...it's a macro issue. What are the psychological effects of children growing up listening to this? You don't seem to understand (or you pretend not to) that gangsta rap is DAMAGING to a child's psyche.

Again, I understand that rap music is not the sole cause of all the world's ills. But what happens when you have a nation of young people growing up listening to gangsta rap?

You can bury your head in the sand and keep telling yourself that the none of it has any effect, but IN MY OPINION, you'd be delusional to do so.


"There are a lot of things that are bad for our kids. Razor blades, The Exorcist, cigarettes. Some things are meants for adults, other things are meant for children. I wouldn't show Scarface to a 10-year-old. There are Disney films that I won't show my child because I don't agree with what's depicted. What's your point?"

Wow, and all this time I've been staunchly in favor of letting kids smoke cigarettes, play with razor blades and watch films like The Exorcist. I'm starting to get a little watery eyed from all the straw in this thread.

"I hearby sentence you to death for the murder of...."

"Wait, Judge! I just found new evidence that eating fast food everyday is bad for you!"

"Right...let the prisoner go."


"Your 10 year old is going to have to have a lot of difficult things explained to her in this "civilized society" we have here. Gangster rap is one of them."

Yeah, there are a lot of bad things in this world. What we are talking about in this thread, though, is rap music.


"People have been claiming society is disintegrating for hundreds of years. Yet it never seems to, does it?"

Have you been around for hundreds of years? How do you know what the average joe was claiming back in 1784? Besides, there are plenty of societies that have disintegrated during recorded history, for various reasons. Rome?

Just because we havent imploded in the last 40 years doesn't mean everything's all clear. America is a only a couple hundred years old.

"Free speech means musicians get to say things you don't agree with, they get to say things you think are harmful. Ice Cube has every right to say he wants to "smoke dem niggaz" in a song. If he goes and does it, then he needs to end up in prison. They're two separate issues."

Again with these straw man arguments. Listen Scarecrow, I'm not arguing in favor of censorship, nor have I stated that Ice Cube has no right to say what he says. I'm saying that he SHOULDN'T say the kinds of things he does. You seem to keep getting caught up in legalese..like the moral equation of the thing is irrelevant. I'm saying it's not.
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Old 10-08-03, 02:44 PM
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"Rap and hip-hop albums totaled 84 million Ė 14 percent Ė of 2002ís sales, enough to overtake pop as musicís second-most popular genre. The yearís two top-selling albums were by rappers Eminem and Nelly, and SoundScan figures show 70 percent of hip-hop consumers are white."
proof of what I've been saying for a long time. todays teens...including white teens...have pathetic taste in music and have heads that are not quite screwed on tight. forgive them father...for they know not what they do.

wish I was still in radio. I loved educating teens with proper and "smart" music. dont get any panties in a wad here...it's just my opinion. I listen to german and japaneese fusion...so what the hell do I know?
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Old 10-08-03, 04:38 PM
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I think itís terribly sad to see how far rap has fallen. I remember back in the 80's how rap was fun. Run DMC, MC Hammer, and Beastie Boys - they werenít taking themselves all that seriously. Now and days rap is angry, all about killin' cops and slapping hoe's and doing drugs. All the fun is gone replaced with hate and rage.

So - frankly, yes. We'd all be better off if all hip-hop fell of the face of the earth.
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Old 10-08-03, 04:49 PM
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Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Also, I'm wondering what those numbers would look like in Los Angeles.
Why, they don't listen to rap anywhere else? If rap was such a pervasively dangerous culture, one would think it would affect people everywhere. If it's only affecting LA, then there's a problem with LA.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Gang violence is only one of the problems I associate with gangsta rap. My concern is of a more general variety...it's a macro issue. What are the psychological effects of children growing up listening to this? You don't seem to understand (or you pretend not to) that gangsta rap is DAMAGING to a child's psyche.
Just because something is damaging to children's psyches doesn't make it morally wrong. It just means it's not for children. There are plenty of worthwhile books, movies, and songs that children shouldn't be exposed to. I tried to make that point above, but you just keep repeating the word "straw" over and over...

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Again, I understand that rap music is not the sole cause of all the world's ills. But what happens when you have a nation of young people growing up listening to gangsta rap?

You can bury your head in the sand and keep telling yourself that the none of it has any effect, but IN MY OPINION, you'd be delusional to do so.
We just have to agree to disagree on this point, and many others. Even if I grant that rap may have negative effects, it can also have positive effects. Since neither effect can be quantified, each person has to make their own mind up about whether it's right or wrong for himself/herself.

I listened to rap all my life. I was lucky enough to grow up an hour outside of NYC in the 70s and 80s and I was exposed to rap as it emerged. It was exciting to witness the birth of genre. It educated me and opened my viewpoints in many ways. I was 16 the first time I heard gangster rap. I don't think it damaged my psyche.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Have you been around for hundreds of years? How do you know what the average joe was claiming back in 1784?
Uh, I read books.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Besides, there are plenty of societies that have disintegrated during recorded history, for various reasons. Rome?

Just because we havent imploded in the last 40 years doesn't mean everything's all clear. America is a only a couple hundred years old.
I agree with you here - but if America's going to collapse because of its popular music, then nothing's going to save us.

Originally posted by NearysEpiphany
Again with these straw man arguments. Listen Scarecrow, I'm not arguing in favor of censorship, nor have I stated that Ice Cube has no right to say what he says. I'm saying that he SHOULDN'T say the kinds of things he does. You seem to keep getting caught up in legalese..like the moral equation of the thing is irrelevant. I'm saying it's not.
If you feel it's morally wrong, there's nothing you're going to say to convince me, and vice versa. We might as well argue about homosexuality or religion. Signing off....
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Old 10-08-03, 04:50 PM
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Originally posted by El-Kabong
I think itís terribly sad to see how far rap has fallen. I remember back in the 80's how rap was fun. Run DMC, MC Hammer, and Beastie Boys - they werenít taking themselves all that seriously. Now and days rap is angry, all about killin' cops and slapping hoe's and doing drugs. All the fun is gone replaced with hate and rage.

So - frankly, yes. We'd all be better off if all hip-hop fell of the face of the earth.
There's still a lot of positive rap out there - you just have to look a little harder to find it...
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Old 10-08-03, 04:52 PM
  #171  
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Originally posted by El-Kabong
I think itís terribly sad to see how far rap has fallen. I remember back in the 80's how rap was fun. Run DMC, MC Hammer, and Beastie Boys - they werenít taking themselves all that seriously. Now and days rap is angry, all about killin' cops and slapping hoe's and doing drugs. All the fun is gone replaced with hate and rage.

So - frankly, yes. We'd all be better off if all hip-hop fell of the face of the earth.
NWA and Public Enemy were angry rappers in the 80s.
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Old 10-08-03, 09:58 PM
  #172  
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Can't wait until 50 cent gets his last bullet in the head! I'll love that like a fat kid loves cake!
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Old 10-08-03, 10:17 PM
  #173  
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Originally posted by White Knight
Can't wait until 50 cent gets his last bullet in the head! I'll love that like a fat kid loves cake!
It's posts like this that indicate that it's time for this thread to fade off into the sunset . . . . . . the posts aren't really on topic anymore anyway . . .
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Old 10-08-03, 10:20 PM
  #174  
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MAH-HA-HA

Ok, I'm joking....NOT A bullet. A CHAINSAW just like in Scareface!
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Old 10-08-03, 10:26 PM
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Originally posted by White Knight
MAH-HA-HA

Ok, I'm joking....NOT A bullet. A CHAINSAW just like in Scareface!
What about this "Ice T?"
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