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Die another day: What is it with MGM and burned-in subtitles?

Die another day: What is it with MGM and burned-in subtitles?

 
Old 06-03-03, 04:25 PM
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Die another day: What is it with MGM and burned-in subtitles?

MGM butchers another Bond title with the crappy player generated subtitles replacing the original burned-in subtitles.

I hate MGM!
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Old 06-03-03, 04:46 PM
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Butchers? Hardly - far from it. It's pretty sweet that you can turn off the subs and go without.
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Old 06-03-03, 05:32 PM
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Are they dialoge translation subtitles or are they subtitles that note the location?
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Old 06-03-03, 07:00 PM
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Subtitles that note the location.

The only place the original burnt-in subtitles were left alone was in chapter 30. The ending sequence in South Korea contains a few original burned-in captions. In these rare instances, the location-identifier titles appear at the lower edge of the movie image, not over the black letterboxing border (the re-gen captions are beneath the image). Since these titles render left-to-right just as if they're being typed "live" (perhaps to lend the climax some urgency?), MGM probably opted to retain the burned-in title elements because their Fisher Price title generator obviously isn't advanced enough to do the "live typing" thing.

Just watch the beginning of Chapter 30 to see how the burned-in titles ought to look.

Then compare with the opening sequence just after the gun barrel where they replaced the original burnt-in subtitles with the player generated ones. It identifies the place as "Pucjong coast, North Korea". This was originally burnt-in in the theatrical version, but replaced with player generated crap on the DVD.

MGM sucks big time when it comes to burned-in subtitles. They used to get rid of them completely in the earlier days. Octopussy was the worst hit movie (remember the "get out of my bed!" line?). After a huge outcry they made new DVDs with player generated subtitles for these movies (TLD, Octopussy). I had to send in my old DVD to exchange for the new one.

There was a rumor once that they were planning to make the opening title sequence and the end credits to be player generated too. Thank heavens they havent stooped to that level yet. But it could happen in the future.

Last edited by Hobgoblin; 06-03-03 at 07:12 PM.
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Old 06-03-03, 07:02 PM
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are player generated subtitles when you get the forgien language only if you put the subtitles on?
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Old 06-03-03, 07:05 PM
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Originally posted by MartyMcSuperfly
Butchers? Hardly - far from it. It's pretty sweet that you can turn off the subs and go without.
No offense, but I prefer to watch my movies exactly as they were originally shown in the theater, without alterations.
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Old 06-03-03, 07:12 PM
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Originally posted by Hobgoblin

Then compare with the opening sequence just after the gun barrel where they replaced the original burnt-in subtitles with the player generated ones. It identifies the place as "Pucjong coast, North Korea". This was originally burnt-in in the theatrical version, but replaced with player generated crap on the DVD.
This truely sucks. I'm glad you pointed this out. I'm definately NOT BUYING Die Another Day. I hate this crap. Burned in titles are meant to be burned in. I had to buy Annie Hall on LD over this same issue with MGM. Screw them, they won't get my money.
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Old 06-03-03, 07:13 PM
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Originally posted by Pants
This truely sucks. I'm glad you pointed this out. I'm definately NOT BUYING Die Another Day. I hate this crap. Burned in titles are meant to be burned in. I had to buy Annie Hall on LD over this same issue with MGM. Screw them, they won't get my money.
It is still worth buying, but the alteration of the movie was something I needed to vent about. MGM constantly screws us in this regard, film after film.
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Old 06-03-03, 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by Rypro 525
are player generated subtitles when you get the forgien language only if you put the subtitles on?
Those as well as when the name of a location such as "North Korea" etc is shown.

I do not remember how many places the subs have been replaced. It is possible they may have replaced some of the translations for foreign language conversation as well. Only by comparing with VHS it may be possible to find out.
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Old 06-03-03, 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by Hobgoblin
No offense, but I prefer to watch my movies exactly as they were originally shown in the theater, without alterations.
Then do you also get a 35mm print and projector to show the film in your house? Otherwise, you're not watching it exactly as originally shown in the theatre. Converting a 35mm film to video is a pretty big alteration. Further, the audio you're listening to has also been altered (since the bitrate of theatrical Dolby Digital is different from the common bitrates used on home video, and the theatrical DTS format isn't the same codec at all as the home format). In light of all of these, using player-generated subs is the least of the alterations going on with Die Another Day. If player generated subs are a butchering, then the alterations to the basic visual and audio components of the film are an outright nuclear holocaust.

DJ
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Old 06-03-03, 07:47 PM
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Originally posted by djtoell
If player generated subs are a butchering, then the alterations to the basic visual and audio components of the film are an outright nuclear holocaust.

DJ
Maybe you will be even more happy if MGM tries to replace the opening title sequences with player generated ones. Different strokes for different folks.

Most people watch pan and scan and they don't even care that the presentation is being altered from the theatrical version. People like me who go for widescreen are often criticised as fanatics.

I like my movies to be as close to the theatrical version as possible. That's all. Hope you understand.
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Old 06-03-03, 08:44 PM
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Player generated subtitles ARE a compromise between seeing the movie as seen in theaters and being able to read the text on smaller TVs.
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Old 06-03-03, 10:06 PM
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Can someone explain the differences between the types of subs? I like turning on closed captioning so I "hear" everything they say, or is Im watching a movie when somebody asleep. One of the DVDs that I have, American Pie (either 1 or 2), has a problem with the subtitles where the text appears ON TOP of the image, sometime taking up half the picture. Is this whats called player generated subs?

However, my Family Guy season 1+2 DVDs have some problem with all the subs not showing up, which really gets irritating when I have to watch them without the sound.
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Old 06-03-03, 10:25 PM
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HitManX, I think you are confusing two different but somewhat similar things. What this is is apparently the location subtitles and subtitles for foreign languages that appeared in the movie in the theaters have been taken off the DVD. Instead, you get the subtitles from the DVD player, like the ones you are talking about. They look different and are off the actual image and on the black bars, unlike how they looked in the theater.
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Old 06-03-03, 11:02 PM
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For me at least, as long as there are subtitles there for key scenes (I didn't watch it, so I didn't know if subs came on or not) I prefer the subs to be inside the bar so it doesn't take up space on the actual movie. Star wars in widescreen does this as well.
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Old 06-04-03, 10:20 AM
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Originally posted by Hobgoblin
No offense, but I prefer to watch my movies exactly as they were originally shown in the theater, without alterations.
Um, so how is it altered? The text is still there, right? Presumably saying the same thing as it did in the theater, right? Then it's all good.
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Old 06-04-03, 10:32 AM
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Originally posted by djtoell
Then do you also get a 35mm print and projector to show the film in your house? Otherwise, you're not watching it exactly as originally shown in the theatre. Converting a 35mm film to video is a pretty big alteration. Further, the audio you're listening to has also been altered (since the bitrate of theatrical Dolby Digital is different from the common bitrates used on home video, and the theatrical DTS format isn't the same codec at all as the home format). In light of all of these, using player-generated subs is the least of the alterations going on with Die Another Day. If player generated subs are a butchering, then the alterations to the basic visual and audio components of the film are an outright nuclear holocaust.
No, this is a more profound form of alteration than just converting the movie from film to video. The subtitles in question are not meant to be optional. They are an intended part of the film's visual design.

If Fox were to release Star Wars and replace the prologue text scroll with big white block letters at the bottom of the screen, would that be acceptable? No, of course not. These are not "subtitles". They are on-screen text.
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Old 06-04-03, 10:50 AM
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If the dvd had the same burnt in subs as the film, they'd be so small you wouldn't be able read them on anything smaller than a 40" screen.
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Old 06-04-03, 12:31 PM
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Originally posted by Josh Z
No, this is a more profound form of alteration than just converting the movie from film to video. The subtitles in question are not meant to be optional. They are an intended part of the film's visual design.
Intended by whom? Do you really think that Lee Tamahori had some particular intention about the typeface used to denote a few locations during the film?

If Fox were to release Star Wars and replace the prologue text scroll with big white block letters at the bottom of the screen, would that be acceptable? No, of course not. These are not "subtitles". They are on-screen text.
The design and display of the text in that case is just about at the opposite end of the spectrum from the text used in DAD. Wanting to keep the original design of the Star Wars text doesn't have much impact upon the completely utilitarian location markers in DAD.

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Old 06-04-03, 12:39 PM
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Originally posted by djtoell
[B]Intended by whom? Do you really think that Lee Tamahori had some particular intention about the typeface used to denote a few locations during the film?



The design and display of the text in that case is just about at the opposite end of the spectrum from the text used in DAD. Wanting to keep the original design of the Star Wars text doesn't have much impact upon the completely utilitarian location markers in DAD.

DJ
Come on djtoel you must recognize that layering text on the image is part of the asthetic of some films. Look at Annie Hall. You can't honestly believe that the player generated subtitles on the DVD are appropriate. THEY RUIN THE JOKE! Subtitles indicating location are very common and they should be left on the screen. I also feel that subtitles that were meant to be there to assist viewers should remain.

I recently watched The Burmese Harp. It's a Japanese WWII film. Most of the film is in Japanese so the video tape adds subtitles in english. In the film there are also American characters. When they speak there is no english subtitle (because we Americans can understand them) but there are Japanese subtitles burned into the image. These Japanese subs were there for the original Japanese audience. They are part of the film, and I would be upset if they were ever removed for an American release.
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Old 06-04-03, 01:30 PM
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I find text over the black bars much easier to read than text over the movie. The black gives greater contrast for reading.
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Old 06-04-03, 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by Pants
I recently watched The Burmese Harp. It's a Japanese WWII film. Most of the film is in Japanese so the video tape adds subtitles in english. In the film there are also American characters. When they speak there is no english subtitle (because we Americans can understand them) but there are Japanese subtitles burned into the image. These Japanese subs were there for the original Japanese audience. They are part of the film, and I would be upset if they were ever removed for an American release.
That seems pretty extreme to me.
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Old 06-04-03, 03:07 PM
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Oh man - I dont believe you guys. People are getting upset because of their player generating a diffent FONT from what was in the orignal film?!? Please tell me you folks are being sarcastic and I'm not just getting the joke.

Come on - it's freakin' TEXT! at the bottom of the screen! It's not calligraphy that Gregorian monks spent 18 weeks transcribing by hand - it's 13 point Tahoma for god sake! Who cares - if it says the same thing as it did in the movie, then it doesnt matter if the font is blue, yellow or plaid!
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Old 06-04-03, 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by djtoell
Intended by whom? Do you really think that Lee Tamahori had some particular intention about the typeface used to denote a few locations during the film?
Yes, I do.

Take a look at any episode of The X-Files, for instance. The font and appearance of the location and time identifiers are very specific. These things are chosen for a reason. The Bond movies are no different.

I haven't seen the D.A.D. disc yet, but if they are anywhere near as bad as the Tomorrow Never Dies DVD, where the original white text was replaced by ugly yellow electronic text font, I will be very disappointed.
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Old 06-04-03, 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by jarofclay73
Player generated subtitles ARE a compromise between seeing the movie as seen in theaters and being able to read the text on smaller TVs.

Hate to be the one to point this out to you, but you have ALREADY agreed to "compromise" by watching the movie on your TV.
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