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Dancer in the Dark - Worst directing ever?

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Dancer in the Dark - Worst directing ever?

Old 03-27-01, 05:01 PM
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Originally posted by djtoell
Originally posted by Suprmallet
Also, why is putting the director's name behind the title "crediting" the director? It doesn't say "Dancer In The Dark: Directed By Lars von Trier." Suppose he has put Kurosawa's name behind the title. Would that suggest Kurosawa directed it? No. Would it even suggest that Kurosawa had anything to do with the film? No. I realize that Dancer breaks the Dogme rules in other ways, but I think that idea of putting a name behind the title and whether it constitutes a credit or not is up for interpretation.
with all due respect, i think that's a bit absurd. the implication that the name in big letters behind the film's title is the director is an obvious one. sure, one could put any name there. but it's not just any name. it's the director's name. it could mean anything, but here it means something. given the custom in film to credit a director in the possessive (e.g., John Carpenter's ____, An Oliver Stone Film, etc.), having Von Trier's name behind the title clearly implies he directed it. suggesting that it might just be a random name is a bit silly to my mind. it doesn't matter much anyway, as it's not the only place where Von Trier is credited. he is credited again at the end of the film, and he is credited on the posters, the dvd packaging, etc. i only referred to the title card as the most blatant (esp. in terms of size) credit that Von Trier gets.

DJ
You're right, it was quite obvious that von Trier's name behind the title was a director credit. I was just playing devil's advocate. I understand that Dancer is in no way a Dogme film. Although, if you think about it, he could also have put Bjork behind the title and it would have been validated, in my opinion.
Old 03-27-01, 10:04 PM
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Originally posted by eXcentris
Just a couple of comments about The Kingdom (Riget and Riget 2, an abbreviation of "Rigshopitalet" which means General Hospital).
The translation is correct, but the use in the title isn't. I've seen other people say that, it's really just a coincidence that the first few and last few letters spell Riget. Taking "riget" from Rigshopitalet would be exactly the same as trying to make "genal" an abbreviation for general hospital in English. No one would get it, and it wouldn't make sense.

Not to sound like a Danish smarty pants, but:

rige is the Danish word for empire. Romerske Rige is Danish for Roman Empire. It can be modified with a tor r as it is in the title. I have no idea what the modifications do, other than the possibilities are the same as in English, ie; tense, plural, etc.

So, Riget isn't an abbreviation of Rigshopitalet. It can be translated as empire, which doesn't sound as good as kingdom for a title.

Although, I have to say that it wouldn't surprise me if Von Trier found the coincidence between the two and decided to exploit the dual meaning. I mean, in 2 he tries to convice us that Riget spelled backwards is really Tiger.
Old 03-28-01, 09:13 AM
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I've been back and forth about the (really expensive) Kingdom discs, but I was under the impression that a region 1 release was just a matter of time. After all, I see Kingdom I on VHS in every Blockbuster/Hollywood video in my area, and I bet it's the biggest von Trier rental going.

But if there's little chance of a region 1 release (in the near future or at all), I'd be more willing to cough up the bucks. I've never even seen Kingdom II.

I can be patient and wait for a region 1, but I'd be truly disappointed if I missed out altogether. Any suggestions? Can anyone vouch for the quality of these DVDs?
Old 03-28-01, 10:15 AM
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Has anyone else noticed that IFC plays Riget II constantly, without ever playing Riget I? It annoys the hell out of me. I don't want to see part 2 before part 1, yet that's all that IFC shows. I love the channel, showing films in their OAR and all, but please please PLEASE show Riget I. Dammit.
Old 03-28-01, 10:50 AM
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Originally posted by Richard Malloy
I've been back and forth about the (really expensive) Kingdom discs, but I was under the impression that a region 1 release was just a matter of time. After all, I see Kingdom I on VHS in every Blockbuster/Hollywood video in my area, and I bet it's the biggest von Trier rental going.

But if there's little chance of a region 1 release (in the near future or at all), I'd be more willing to cough up the bucks. I've never even seen Kingdom II.

I can be patient and wait for a region 1, but I'd be truly disappointed if I missed out altogether. Any suggestions? Can anyone vouch for the quality of these DVDs?
Yeah, they are really expensive! I bought them, I'm not ashamed to admit I spent $100 on Kingdom 2.

Before I bought both of them, I researched the possibility of Region 1 releases, as well as pricing, etc.. I'm not one of those people to toss $100 away on a movie when there's some slight chance of ever getting it another way. Here are the highlights of what I found out from various sources:

- The Kingdom VHS is OOP. You see it on shelves, and it may get some rental action, but once it's gone it's gone.

- The Kingdom VHS claims to be sold by many online retailers including Amazon. When you place your order (and it says 2-3 days) expect to never get it. It's OOP. You'll eventually get an email telling you that they cannot get it.

- The Kingdom had marginal success in the US, but not enough to have any distributors interested in releasing it on DVD at this point, and there are no future plans to do so.

- The Kingdom 2 had a very brief theatrical release in the US, and had less interest than the first one. No plans to ever release this on VHS or DVD in the US.

This was enough for me to buy the DVD, as it looks like they'll never see a Region 1 release.

About the DVDs:

The Kingdom:
- 1 flipper disc
- Pan & Scan because it's a TV movie
- Region 0, looks to be HK in manufacture
- Audio & Video are TV quality, as it's a TV movie
- Average price $50

The Kingdom 2:
- 2 single sided DVD's in seperate cases
- Pan & Scan because it's a TV movie
- Region 0, looks to be Japanese in manufacture
- Audio & Video are TV quality, as it's a TV movie
- Average price $100 for both discs, which are often sold seperately for $50 each.

Both have Danish voice track with Asian (Not sure if it's Chinese or Japanese) and English subtitles. There is no English whatsoever on the DVD covers, which leads me to believe they were for a Japanese release, not HK or China.

Both are OOP, so it's a get 'em as you can type of thing.

An interesting side note: Neither of these DVD's have Macrovision; so, you can tape the DVD's.

2 starts right where the first one left off. It doesn't end the saga, though. There are rumors Von Trier is going to make a 3rd, but that it will be a TV movie, not a miniseries like the first 2. One of the main actors, Ernst-Hugo Järegård (Dr. Helmer, "DANISH SCUM!!")died after making Kingdom 2, so it's kind of debatable whether 3 will actually happen.

2 is very worth watching.

Let me know if you have any other questions.
Old 03-28-01, 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by renaldow
The Kingdom:
- 1 flipper disc
- Pan & Scan because it's a TV movie
- Region 0, looks to be HK in manufacture
- Audio & Video are TV quality, as it's a TV movie
- Average price $50

The Kingdom 2:
- 2 single sided DVD's in seperate cases
- Pan & Scan because it's a TV movie
- Region 0, looks to be Japanese in manufacture
- Audio & Video are TV quality, as it's a TV movie
- Average price $100 for both discs, which are often sold seperately for $50 each.

Let me know if you have any other questions.
I have some questions: since these were made for TV, then it wouldn't be pan and scan, would it? It would be full frame. (Pan and scan intimating that you lose information, full frame meaning it was shot that way and that you're not losing information.) Also, are these DVDs NTSC or PAL? Are there any extras on either of these discs?
Old 03-28-01, 01:29 PM
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Originally posted by Suprmallet
I have some questions: since these were made for TV, then it wouldn't be pan and scan, would it? It would be full frame. (Pan and scan intimating that you lose information, full frame meaning it was shot that way and that you're not losing information.) Also, are these DVDs NTSC or PAL? Are there any extras on either of these discs?
Yes, Full Frame/Standard. I just end up calling everything P&S that's full frame. Bad habit. You see as much of the picture as you were meant to.

The DVD's are NTSC. I believe there were cast & crew bios, if there were they weren't in any language I could understand.
Old 03-28-01, 02:03 PM
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Originally posted by renaldow

Not to sound like a Danish smarty pants, but:

rige is the Danish word for empire. Romerske Rige is Danish for Roman Empire. It can be modified with a tor r as it is in the title. I have no idea what the modifications do, other than the possibilities are the same as in English, ie; tense, plural, etc.

So, Riget isn't an abbreviation of Rigshopitalet. It can be translated as empire, which doesn't sound as good as kingdom for a title.

Although, I have to say that it wouldn't surprise me if Von Trier found the coincidence between the two and decided to exploit the dual meaning. I mean, in 2 he tries to convice us that Riget spelled backwards is really Tiger.
I think we are both right. I've seen 'Riget' used as an abbreviation for: general hospital, national state hospital, university hospital, central hospital, etc...
The good folks on a Danish IRC channel confirmed this and said that it can be translated as 'empire' (kingdom) but is also used as an abbreviation of the above.

And I think I'll stick to my VHS tapes for now. Considering how this was shot and how it looks, I seriously doubt the DVD's show a marked improvement in picture quality.
Old 03-28-01, 03:49 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by eXcentris
I think we are both right. I've seen 'Riget' used as an abbreviation for: general hospital, national state hospital, university hospital, central hospital, etc...
The good folks on a Danish IRC channel confirmed this and said that it can be translated as 'empire' (kingdom) but is also used as an abbreviation of the above.

And I think I'll stick to my VHS tapes for now. Considering how this was shot and how it looks, I seriously doubt the DVD's show a marked improvement in picture quality.
That's interesting to know. The DVD doesn't show a marked improvement in picture quality, but it does have chinese subtitles!
Old 03-28-01, 04:32 PM
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Originally posted by renaldow
One of the main actors, Ernst-Hugo Järegård (Dr. Helmer, "DANISH SCUM!!")died after making Kingdom 2, so it's kind of debatable whether 3 will actually happen.
I taped Riget I and II off IFC channel a few months ago. I'm yet to finish Riget II (I got my timer wrong and didn't tape last 10 or 15 minutes).

Also, Kirsten Rolffes who played Sigrid Drusse passed away last year. The Kingdom won't be the same without them, but still, I wish Von Trier makes the third part.
Old 03-28-01, 05:18 PM
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That's too bad. But, as long as there is a 3, and it gets some sort of US release.... I'll be happy!
Old 03-28-01, 07:35 PM
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I just wanted to chime in to confirm that IFC does indeed show Kingdom I (the first 4 episodes). On the other hand I have never seen them show Kingdom II, but if you say they do I will look out for it and tape it.
Old 03-28-01, 07:37 PM
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By the way, I really like how this started as a thread by a guy who didn't understand the technique of DitD, but has now turned into a thread where Von Trier fans discus his body of work. Nice Highjack!
Old 03-28-01, 10:48 PM
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Originally posted by Pants
By the way, I really like how this started as a thread by a guy who didn't understand the technique of DitD, but has now turned into a thread where Von Trier fans discus his body of work. Nice Highjack!
Given that the thread started with the invitation to "tell me what you thought of his bad directing" I'm suprised that the thread has remained as focused and civil as it has...

Myself I can't comment on DitD as I'm still waiting for my copy to turn up from amazon...

oh, and like most others here I'd very much like to see Kingdom 2 - I missed it when it was shown at a local film festival some years ago, and i've yet to see available on video - the US$100 dvd is just too much for me to justify at this stage. otoh I've got a great copy of Kingdom 2 on LD complete with japanese subtitles (which needless to say remains unwatched)

Old 03-28-01, 10:53 PM
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hemulen

Myself I can't comment on DitD as I'm still waiting for my copy to turn up from amazon...
I'm feelin your pain. I got my copy last Saturday and it is an excellent DVD!
Old 03-29-01, 10:31 AM
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Kingdom/Kingdom 2 End Credits Question

Since this anti-Von Trier thread has been successfully hijacked by Kingdom fans, I've got a question that's been bugging the crap out of me and my wife.

At the end of both Kingdoms, during the credit roll, Lars comes out and talks for awhile, then makes some sort of symbol with his hands. He's of course talking in Danish, and no copy I've ever seen (VHS or DVD) care to subtitle the ramblings of Von Trier.

So, anyone know what he's talking about? What the deal is with the symbol he makes? Anything significant or funny, or is he just coming out and say "Hey, I'm on TV now, that's great. Thanks for watching my movie. Creepy wasn't it?" or what?

P.S. Don't talk about DitD, I'm waiting for the DVD too!

P.P.S. Anyone who hasn't seen one of the Kingdoms, but would like to, email me be about this possibility.
Old 03-29-01, 11:16 AM
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He talks at the end of each episode on the tv series. Not sure about the hand signal, I'll have to check my tapes.
Old 03-29-01, 12:50 PM
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Originally posted by eXcentris
He talks at the end of each episode on the tv series. Not sure about the hand signal, I'll have to check my tapes.
I know he talks, but what is he saying? It's not subbed.
Old 03-29-01, 03:22 PM
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Originally posted by renaldow
Originally posted by eXcentris
He talks at the end of each episode on the tv series. Not sure about the hand signal, I'll have to check my tapes.
I know he talks, but what is he saying? It's not subbed.
Well it's dubbed in french here. He's pretty funny actually. It's mostly pseudo-ironic-philosophical-esoteric comments about things not beeing what they seem to be, ghosts, spirits, parallel universes, what's real is often blurred with what's not, and so on. It usually ends with "until next time, don't let reality fool you" or something like that. I think that's when he does the hand signal thing.
Old 03-29-01, 04:22 PM
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Thanks for the info, I don't know why they never subbed it in the US.
Old 03-29-01, 07:49 PM
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This is what he's actually saying when he makes that sign

"From here we wish you a great life. Should you again feel drawn towards THE KINGDOM and wish to spend some more time with us, then be prepared to - here as well as in life - take good with evil..."





Old 03-29-01, 08:07 PM
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The hand signal is what kids would do at heavy metal concerts in the 1980s, and supposedly signifies the horns of the devil. So, when he ends each epilogue saying some variation of "the good and the evil", he makes hand signs for both.

I'm pretty sure I remember that the US VHS version of The Kingdom I had subtitles for the closing comments, but I'm absolutely positive that the version that IFC runs does have subtitles. The DVD doesn't? Yuck - although to be honest they are fairly silly. You're not missing much.

Super minor spoiler...

I should clarify what another poster said. It's clearly stated that "tiger" is an anagram of "Riget", not that "tiger" is "Riget" spelled backwards. This is clarified when Mrs. Drusse says that this struck her because her nom de plume for her column in the spiritualist newspaper was, iirc, "Anna Gramm", or some such.
Old 03-30-01, 10:52 AM
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Thanks for all the info about the ending. You guys totally rock.

I posted a question about the Kingdom a month or so ago, and no one responded really. I figured I was the only one who'd seen it or something

Yeah, Anna Gramm, I forgot about that one.
Old 03-30-01, 11:03 AM
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I know the feeling! I remember posting about The Kingdom about a year ago and got zero replies. I was wondering what planet I was on.
Old 03-30-01, 12:01 PM
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For those who have region-free player - http://www.blackstar.co.uk/video/item/7000000062090

I pre-ordered mine. It comes out 4/16

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