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American History X

Old 07-26-99, 02:42 AM
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Feel this may be one of my favorite movies. Definately not a light movie, but hits racism in a very different light, and shows it from both sides of the ball. I recommend this film to anyone, plus it looks great on DVD. and deleted scenes, only minus in lack of commentary which I feel would have been great on this film.
Old 07-26-99, 10:35 AM
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I agree with your assessment of the movie. Very good and very powerful.

Just a side note: About a commentary, don't ever expect to hear director Tony Kaye on it. He tried to get his name taken off of the movie after Ed Norton edited the film to give himself more screen time. Since he talked about the reason he wanted this done, he broke a Director's Guild rule, his name was not allowed to be removed. There is currently a $200 million law suit filed by Kaye for violation of his first amendment rights.

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Old 07-26-99, 03:21 PM
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I can't believe that Ed Norton edited the movie to give himself more screen time, although if he did, I certainly don't mind. Looking at the deleted scenes, I think they were right to be removed. I believe they were either irrelevant, unnecessary, or in the case of the burger scene, out of character.
Old 07-26-99, 08:50 PM
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i agree, though it was nice seeing them.
Old 07-27-99, 12:35 AM
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I heard that Kaye wanted to take his name off of the film altogether, and make it an "Alan Smithee" film, but he lost the right to do so because of his public campaigning against the cut that was released...
Old 07-27-99, 12:59 AM
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I didn't realize there was so much chaos with the movie, but Edward Norton's performance was awesome!!! . . . this is one tough dude!

I remember first seeing this guy in "Primal Fear" and couldn't imagine him being a tough guy. Well, he had me thoroughly convinced.

I remember I saw this with my wife, sister, and brother-in-law and we had an intense discussion after the movie . . . highly recommended.
Old 07-27-99, 08:44 PM
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Apparently Tony Kaye has had some serious delusions of grandeur. He is reportedly EXTREAMLY difficult to work with and what with American History X being his first film, he was bizzarely demanding of his actors, his editors, and his crew in general. Not a fun person to work with. I seem to remember him being quoted in Premiere magazine as having said something to the effect of, "I feel that I should be given just as much respect and control as a Kubrick or Hitchcock would be given."

Yeah right buddy, try making a few more masterpieces before you get anywhere in this town... we all remember what happened to William Friedkin after The French Connection and The Exorcist... so sad... so sad...
Old 09-04-00, 07:00 AM
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I watched American History X for the first time tonight, w/ a sexy female. A friend was telling me what a great film this was. Anyhow, this film will be added to my collection the next time I join ch!!

The film was great from start to finish. I was a little upset at the end. With 2 brothers of my own, I could feel the pain.

If you haven't seen it, watch it!
WARNING: You'll end up wanting this dvd in your collection as well!

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Old 09-04-00, 08:21 AM
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great movie indeed. has to be one of my fav's

the dvd is a classic. the movie itself is kick arse.. ed norton just amde it 10x better.
Old 09-05-00, 01:12 PM
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Just watched it last night for the 3rd time... Absolutely brilliant piece of film... Highest recommendation...
Old 09-05-00, 02:04 PM
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I think this film should be shown in schools everywhere. Everyone needs to see it. We can all learn something from it.
Old 09-05-00, 05:06 PM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by NOFX:
I think this film should be shown in schools everywhere. Everyone needs to see it. We can all learn something from it.<HR>


That's scary. This is the worst film in recent memory made by half-wits and swallowed by uncritical masses. It is a sub-after school special with no message, no complexity, and garbage characters. I was so angry after this film I didn't know what to do with myself, not angry at the film, but angry at the sheep in the theater who ate it up and actually applauded the ridiculous ending (and also sickened by the woman behind me who actually called me a Nazi for saying to my girlfriend that it was garbage. Yeah lady, you weren't brainwashed by any propaganda, idiot.)

This movie is crap and doesn't deserve to be taken seriously enough to disagree with.



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Old 09-05-00, 05:53 PM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by jaymart:
Just a side note: About a commentary, don't ever expect to hear director Tony Kaye on it. He tried to get his name taken off of the movie after Ed Norton edited the film to give himself more screen time.<HR>


Story I heard was that the studio was upset that Kaye (a first time director) kept refusing to turn in a final cut. He kept reopening the production and taking his crew out to film more and more stuff to try and get it 'just right'. Finally, the studio lost patience, grabbed all the available footage and put together what they thought was a completed film.

I'm not sure if Norton was involved in that final edit, but I don't think that it happened just because he wanted more screen time.
Old 09-05-00, 09:14 PM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by buskerdog:
angry at the sheep in the theater who ate it up and actually applauded the ridiculous ending<HR>


People in the theater actually applauded the ending?! I thought it was tragic, but what do I know...

Actually, I thought the movie was very good. Yes, it's a souped-up "after-school special," as you call it, but I enjoyed it. (Maybe "appreciated" is a better word.)

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Old 09-05-00, 09:27 PM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by buskerdog:
That's scary. This is the worst film in recent memory made by half-wits and swallowed by uncritical masses. It is a sub-after school special with no message, no complexity, and garbage characters. I was so angry after this film I didn't know what to do with myself, not angry at the film, but angry at the sheep in the theater who ate it up and actually applauded the ridiculous ending (and also sickened by the woman behind me who actually called me a Nazi for saying to my girlfriend that it was garbage. Yeah lady, you weren't brainwashed by any propaganda, idiot.)

This movie is crap and doesn't deserve to be taken seriously enough to disagree with.


<HR>


Would you care to explain why I'm a moronic sheep for liking this movie? Or, why this is brainwashing propaganda? Apparently its ok for you to call me a sheep, but not for the lady to call you a Nazi for not. I see.

Old 09-05-00, 11:17 PM
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quote:<HR>Originally posted by buskerdog:
That's scary. This is the worst film in recent memory made by half-wits and swallowed by uncritical masses. It is a sub-after school special with no message, no complexity, and garbage characters. I was so angry after this film I didn't know what to do with myself, not angry at the film, but angry at the sheep in the theater who ate it up and actually applauded the ridiculous ending (and also sickened by the woman behind me who actually called me a Nazi for saying to my girlfriend that it was garbage. Yeah lady, you weren't brainwashed by any propaganda, idiot.)

This movie is crap and doesn't deserve to be taken seriously enough to disagree with.

<HR>


WOW, i can close my eyes and see exactly what kind of person you are,now thats scary...ts
Old 09-06-00, 03:19 PM
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I was disturbed that people would so blindly accept something without questioning it. Her reaction (and those in the theater) was like a kid being told how great being a skinhead is and buying into it. The movie is a thoughtless mess. I unfortunately no longer remember ever fine detail of my criticism, but I remember being disgusted at the lack of care taken in showing the Ed Norton character's change from being a skin head to being the guy he became. Since the filmmakers and the actors obviously had a lot more fun making him a skinhead and were really bored with making him a "nice guy" the change came off almost as a downfall. Norton imbued the skinhead sequences with a raw, live-wire energy that made him compelling, if disgusting. His later self was boring and simple. He only really decided he didn't like being a skinhead because the other skinhead's raped him in prison. It wasn't for sorrow over the misery he caused his family, his community, and the world. He just didn't like being anally raped. Plus he had his little Stepin Fetchit laundry folding buddy to show him that not all black people are bad; some of them are funny!

Plus, the "moral" was that you can turn yourself around and stop being a racist white guy but in the end a black animal is gonna kill you anyway. Plus, the horriffic and gratuitous way he killed the guy on the curb. i'm sorry, but you have to earn violence like that and that was totaly unearned. It was disgusting and inappropriate.

Plus, of course, the all around sub-amateur acting, pretentious direction, mind-numbingly thoughtless pacing, pitiful dialog, etc... This is, simply put, one of the worst films ever made.

Now, none of that would matter (Nothing But Trouble is also one of the worst films ever made, but I didn't get so mad about that). The problem with this movie is the way people lapped it up as if it had a message that uplifted them. What the hell was the message? What was the point? People were transfixed and all the while I was wincing and rolling my eyes. When the film ended to applause I was shocked. To think that the much more thoughtful, meaningful Life Is Beautiful was playing next door and these morons were getting all happy over this horrendous piece of trash made me sick. For a woman to actually call me a Nazi for disagreeing with this mindless, childish piece of stupiditiy was unbelievable. I'm far too young to have lived through WWII but, without going into it, my family was very deeply disturbed by what went on in Europe. To call me a Nazi because I see through the transparency of an idiotic movie like this when real people have suffered real pain at the hands of scum like the ones "depicted" in the film is ludicrous.

The reception American History X has received by some is like an insult to people all over the world who have been robbed of their homes, their livelihoods, and their lives to ethnic, racial, sexual, and religious persecution. The movie itself is a harmless piece of silliness, but the reaction of morons to it is the frightening thing.

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Old 09-07-00, 01:41 PM
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Hey Buskerdog,

I agree people shouldn't just blindly accept a movie as "real life". But I hope you agree that any movie that can spark a discussion on such a contovertial subject is a good thing. I think this movie can be viewed as just such a catalyst.
Old 09-07-00, 01:54 PM
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Any movie can spark an interesting discussion, it's true, but some movies encourage that by interesting ideas, themes, and thoeries, by thoughtful writing, acting, and direction, and by original approaches to important material. This particular movie has none of these things. If people want to seriously discuss the issues "discussed" in American History X that's great, but the movie is stupid, has no ideas or theories, and brings nothing itself to the discussion. It is worthless and mindless.

Plus, anyone that says:

quote:<HR>
I watched American History X for the first time tonight, w/ a sexy female.<HR>


is probably not approaching the material with a serious discussion in mind. This movie plays to people's most sheep-like tendancies and doesn't create any real dialog on it's own. After the film I did argue with a couple of people more willing to explain themselves than the "Nazi" woman, but still they were unwilling to think about the movie critically. To them it was a masterpiece, although nothing that they claimed it was about was actually in the film. The film itself is a confused mess with no statements.

And I don't think Ed Norton is stupid, although his comments on American History X are and his commentary on Fight Club (an intensely intelligent and complex film, the likes of which our generation has never seen) are, while more than skin deep, not totally complete either. Sometimes movies are dumber than the people who make them, like American History X, and sometimes they are actually smarter than the people who make them, like Fight Club. Just don't get sucked in by fakes. Hold out for the real thing. There are too many good movies in the past, present, and future to sit around watching trash like American History X.

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[This message has been edited by buskerdog (edited September 07, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by buskerdog (edited September 07, 2000).]
Old 09-07-00, 03:39 PM
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By the way. I totally disagree with you that the movie was pointless.

I think it showed ME some interesting things. Like: How a charismatic person can control and convince people that even the stupidest ideas are good ones. (i.e. Hitler). It showed how events in your life can be life altering.. and even mind altering. The movie was too short (for the themes), but it managed to show me how Ed Norton's declined into a racist Nazi and then his slow climb back to who he used to be before he became hateful. If you are dense enough to believe that being butt-raped was the only reason that he came to terms with himself, then you weren't watching the movie. The movie also showed how his hateful ideals ultimately hurt his family and himself.

I could go on. I think to call this movie simplistic and pointless means that you didn't really watch the movie. I have no problem with you not liking it, but I couldn't disagree more with why you didn't.

Old 11-20-01, 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by buskerdog
Any movie can spark an interesting discussion, it's true, but some movies encourage that by interesting ideas, themes, and thoeries, by thoughtful writing, acting, and direction, and by original approaches to important material. This particular movie has none of these things. If people want to seriously discuss the issues "discussed" in American History X that's great, but the movie is stupid, has no ideas or theories, and brings nothing itself to the discussion. It is worthless and mindless.

Plus, anyone that says:

quote:<HR>
I watched American History X for the first time tonight, w/ a sexy female.<HR>


is probably not approaching the material with a serious discussion in mind. This movie plays to people's most sheep-like tendancies and doesn't create any real dialog on it's own. After the film I did argue with a couple of people more willing to explain themselves than the "Nazi" woman, but still they were unwilling to think about the movie critically. To them it was a masterpiece, although nothing that they claimed it was about was actually in the film. The film itself is a confused mess with no statements.

And I don't think Ed Norton is stupid, although his comments on American History X are and his commentary on Fight Club (an intensely intelligent and complex film, the likes of which our generation has never seen) are, while more than skin deep, not totally complete either. Sometimes movies are dumber than the people who make them, like American History X, and sometimes they are actually smarter than the people who make them, like Fight Club. Just don't get sucked in by fakes. Hold out for the real thing. There are too many good movies in the past, present, and future to sit around watching trash like American History X.

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[This message has been edited by buskerdog (edited September 07, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by buskerdog (edited September 07, 2000).]
Expressing your opinion is one thing but insulting others for liking it is something else. I don't know if you watched this film carefully enough either. Or maybe you formed your opinion before viewing it.

Bump up on this thread because I wanted to discuss this film. I felt it was a great film that dealt with important, relevent racial issues.

Hate comes in many different forms, and just when one boy (spoilers; ending) had his revelation and decided how bad racism and hate were, he was a victim of it.. That's a powerful ending.

and (*)many(*) people disagree that Fight Club is extremely deep. I believe I heard the phrase "teen angst film" before. I don't necessarly agree, but I'm just putting things in perspective.


Last edited by CitizenKaneRBud; 11-20-01 at 08:32 PM.
Old 11-24-01, 10:51 AM
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can someone move this to "movie talk"

people get mad when you don't do a search but when you do, there are no replies! argh..
Old 11-26-01, 10:09 AM
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Ok, I'll bite. It had been a long time since I saw the movie when i first posted in this thread and it's been even longer now. Still, I remember how laughably inept this movie was, from the most basic storytelling aspects, through some unbelievably bad performances (Avery Brooks, anyone?) to the muddied morals to the totally deplorable violence, which was the kind of real, physical violence that was used to shock and not to make a coherent point (It made the point that violence is bad at that moment but did not add up to a greater point).

This is a vanity project. It makes Norton look like a versatile actor and it was supposed to make Kaye look like a serious director. it ended up making him look like a fool, with his unbelievably weird behavior. (he wanted to add hours of video interviews with homeless men to the movie)

Regardless, I think it's good if this film provokes thought in viewers but frankly in this day and age it shouldn't take such a stupid movie to make people look at the world in which we live more critically. I never meant to say that anyone who likes this movie is sheep, just the people who saw it in the theater with me. I was sickened by the reaction to this movie and when people describe it as "awesome" I feel a little like they aren't using their brains enough.

As for Fight Club, I don't think it is a "teen angst film" at all. It is an extremely complex analysis of the human mentality that, unlike American History X, seems even more interesting and insightful in our changed world. It is really about what makes men join movements that prey on their baser urges, unlike AHX, which doesn't get under the surface much. Fight Club also is smart enough to conclude that it doesn't hold all the answers and that the message is that life is all about the learning PROCESS. AHX's weird ending just feeds the racism, but not in a bleak this is "reality" sort of way, but rather in a convenient, shallow movie way.
Old 11-26-01, 11:13 AM
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Old 11-27-01, 05:48 AM
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as i admire norton alot i believe this film achieved what it set out to do as films of this genre do. it makes you think, it makes you question, it provokes discussion, it makes you feel. and it does it very well. a very powerful film-
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