ANGEL S

I have th DSPa1 and I am very pleased. In my opinion I think that Yamaha make the best Home theater receiver out there. Probably the only true competition is the $3,800.00 Dennon.

jumbojp

Yes I have heard them, but never listened to them as I don't like there sound.

I prefer the Denon or Marantz, but if I were paying $3000 for a setup I would buy seperates.

Green Jello

I wouldn't even consider the Yamaha if you are looking at spending that much on a receiver. I recently picked up the Denon AVR-5800, and I'll tell you, it is the finest home theater receiver ever created. The sound quality between the two is so far apart, it isn't even worth comparing. Also the Denon is one of the first to offer DTS-ES Discrete decoding. You also lose out on true Dolby Surround EX decoding from Yamaha, because they don't believe in THX.

I work for a dealer that sells Denon, Yamaha, Marantz, Sony ES, and Onkyo Integra. I've compared all of the flagships VERY closely and believe me, the Denon is in a class all by itself.

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[This message has been edited by Green Jello (edited October 28, 2000).]

ANGEL S

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Green Jello:
You also lose out on true Dolby Surround EX decoding from Yamaha, because they don't believe in THX.
<HR>

Do you know why Yamah doesn't believe in THX?

Also THX is a means of Certifying audio equiptment. It is not a digital format. So if this is the case how could you lose out of Dolby Ex simply because you don't have THX certification. Yamaha has been in the audio business longer than THX and they certainly would know how to match the specs for true DOLBY EX sound. Does this sound reasonable?

Green Jello

quote:<HR>Originally posted by ANGEL S:
Do you know why Yamah doesn't believe in THX?

Also THX is a means of Certifying audio equiptment. It is not a digital format. So if this is the case how could you lose out of Dolby Ex simply because you don't have THX certification. Yamaha has been in the audio business longer than THX and they certainly would know how to match the specs for true DOLBY EX sound. Does this sound reasonable?<HR>

That is completely reasonable. Yamaha and Sony ES have both stated that they will NEVER produce THX certified equipment. They feel that their name is enough to market their products without having to spend extra on Lucasfilms certification program. The Yamaha will decode Dolby 6.1, but since it is not a THX receiver they cannot claim that it is THX Surround EX, which is the true format. That is a very minor issue. The true issue is that the Denon is far superior in every aspect.

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4KRG

I think recievers in general suck. BUT if I were forced to buy one, the Dennon 5800 would win hands down. I would go as far as saying the Dennon 5800 is as good as some lower end separate systems (the type with a pre/pro and a 5 channel amp in one case, nothinig beats a separate amp for each 5.1 channel). I will also note that I have friends with all the above and listen to them all the time.

Yamaha had the best f the flagships for a year or so, but Dennon ate their lunch with the release of the 5700 and the 5800. Yamaha is still sucking dust fromwhen Dennon blew past them

DVD_O_Rama

quote:<HR>Originally posted by 4KRG:
I think recievers in general suck. BUT if I were forced to buy one, the Dennon 5800 would win hands down. I would go as far as saying the Dennon 5800 is as good as some lower end separate systems (the type with a pre/pro and a 5 channel amp in one case, nothinig beats a separate amp for each 5.1 channel). I will also note that I have friends with all the above and listen to them all the time.

Yamaha had the best f the flagships for a year or so, but Dennon ate their lunch with the release of the 5700 and the 5800. Yamaha is still sucking dust fromwhen Dennon blew past them <HR>

I hear this quite a bit (the seperates vs. recievers argument) and my question to you is this: what components could you buy (seperates) that can replicate what the Denon 5800 can do? I mean a seperate 6.1 decoder (not matrix but discrete 6.1) and 7 seperate power amps. What are your suggestions, and what would the price be, in comparison to the $2,700 I'd pay for the Denon?



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Green Jello

quote:<HR>Originally posted by DVD_O_Rama:
I hear this quite a bit (the seperates vs. recievers argument) and my question to you is this: what components could you buy (seperates) that can replicate what the Denon 5800 can do? I mean a seperate 6.1 decoder (not matrix but discrete 6.1) and 7 seperate power amps. What are your suggestions, and what would the price be, in comparison to the $2,700 I'd pay for the Denon?

<HR>

There are no suggestions to be made if you want the FULL capabillities. The Denon AVR-5800 and 3801, are currently the ONLY two products on the market that have DTS-ES Discrete decoding. That will obviously change soon, but for the time being, that's it.


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jumbojp

I think the obvious advantage of seperates over a receiver would be that to upgrade a receiver you need to upgrade the whole thing. To upgrade separates you just need to upgrade the pre-amp processor thus saving alot of money in the long run.

DVD_O_Rama

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Green Jello:
There are no suggestions to be made if you want the FULL capabillities. The Denon AVR-5800 and 3801, are currently the ONLY two products on the market that have DTS-ES Discrete decoding. That will obviously change soon, but for the time being, that's it.


<HR>

It was kind of a trick question, as I already knew the answer, but I wanted to see how someone who thinks recievers 'generally suck' could suggest a seperate set-up to compare to.

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4KRG

quote:<HR>Originally posted by DVD_O_Rama:
I hear this quite a bit (the seperates vs. recievers argument) and my question to you is this: what components could you buy (seperates) that can replicate what the Denon 5800 can do? I mean a seperate 6.1 decoder (not matrix but discrete 6.1) and 7 seperate power amps. What are your suggestions, and what would the price be, in comparison to the $2,700 I'd pay for the Denon?
<HR>

This is probably beyond what I can explain here. If you have to ask this question I will assume you have never heard a nice separates system and a Dennon avr5700 in the same room on the same speakers at your house not in the store. I have and let me tell you something, there is no comparison in sound quality. Receivers have there place and I have owned them, to each his own.

All the added digital surround modes in a reciever are a gimmick and they actually ruin the sound as it was 'meant' to be, even if I had a receiver I would not use them. Notice the higher end and even the most expensive brand pre/pro's do not have many of these 'features' as you call them, but all the cheaper recievers include them as a feature (joe six pack likes 'em). If you prefer wide screen over pan and scan then you should prefer a true DD or DTS over a digitally altered one, same thing.

All I can tell you is to try and meet some people that will experiment with you. I have a fairly nice separates system with Rotel amps, B & W speakers and a Marantz pre/pro (I have a ton of other stuff, but this is what the discussion is about) my cost for these couple of pieces was MORE than a Dennon 5700 reciever (my friend actually bought his for $2100, this would not even cover my amps ) He was the same as you until I said 'ENOUGH' bring your $hit over to my house and lets go head to head I will show you I did not waste my money. After we swapped once he knew what I meant and said well I only paid X what did you pay, I said that is not the point which sounds better? He agreed with me.

He is happy with his setup and I am happy with mine, each of us are happy with what we paid for our setups. He knows I paid for the sound I got and I know he paid for his, we both got what we paid for and what we wanted. If I only WANTED to spend $2100 I would buy exactly what he has, no doubt it is the BEST bang for the buck. When I made my purchase I was not after 'bang for the buck' I was after sound that I liked and we'll talk about cost later. Sure there are plenty of systems that sound better than mine, but they cost more and I did not want to spend more, same with my friend.

You guys that think the 'receiver' is the end all beat all have never been in a real life test like this. I would also argue that many 5 channel amps and a separate pre/pro are not any better then a Dennon 5700 but cost more, separate amps is the key and speakers that will let you hear them is even more key.

I will also tell you 5700 owners to look in your owners manual and explain to me why the THD rating on your amps is higher when the unit is in 5 channel mode than when it is 2 channel mode? Discrete amps indeed, what a joke, my amps have the same specs in 2 channel as they do in 5 channel, truly discrete, truly clean power, that makes the sound.

It is all in what you are after. For 98% of the people, the receiver sound is fine (although it cracks me up to see monster cable on a $400 receiver) PERSONALLY I do not like it and that is my opinion based on what I have heard. I would not suggest everyone has my tastes.

4KRG

quote:<HR>Originally posted by DVD_O_Rama:

It was kind of a trick question, as I already knew the answer, but I wanted to see how someone who thinks recievers 'generally suck' could suggest a seperate set-up to compare to.

<HR>

This is why I did not answer your question. I never claimed to know everything and every piece of equipment in the world, why don't you do a little research on your own and figure out what would sound better. I agree it will cost more, but a lexus costs more than a ford......

Green Jello

This is lame now that this has evolved into another receivers vs. separates debate, but the point is, try to put together any combination of equipment that can do what the 5800 can do for the same price point. You simply can't.

4KRG

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Green Jello:
This is lame now that this has evolved into another receivers vs. separates debate, but the point is, try to put together any combination of equipment that can do what the 5800 can do for the same price point. You simply can't.<HR>

Agreed! THAT WAS NEVER MY POINT!!!!!

Green Jello

4KRG:

Just as an FYI, I used to own the 5700, and I would never claim that it is close to the quality of some separates. The 5800 is an entirely different receiver, however. The sound quality is far superior to any of the previous Denon models or any other receiver in history for that matter.

4KRG

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Green Jello:
4KRG:

Just as an FYI, I used to own the 5700, and I would never claim that it is close to the quality of some separates.
<HR>

I agree, and that was my point. ALSO separates COST MUCH MORE . IMHO is is worth it, YMMV.

Some separtes on the other hand are not what they claim to be and are not htat good even though they cost big $$$.

quote:<HR>

The 5800 is an entirely different receiver, however. The sound quality is far superior to any of the previous Denon models or any other receiver in history for that matter.<HR>

On that note I will have to have my friend drag his crap back to my house. He did the same (had a 5700 and upgraded to a 5800) he still says mine sounds better, but we are going off old thoughts. He says the 5800 is better than the 5700, just like you do. I will have to get him in a head to head once again just to see, but it will be harder this time since he is a little gun shy from the last test

It is just funny that people (dvd-o-rama) think there is no benefit to separates over a receiver. YES they cost more, so what? If you are bargain hunting a reciever is the only way to go, this does not mean you get high sound quality, you just get a deal. I use to own recievers then I did some research and listenend on my own and found other things that sound better TO ME. I would suggest anyone here do the same. Listen to as much as you can, especially in your own home.

I understand people have different tastes in music and some people actually like the 'receiver experience' I am just not one of them (some folks like pan and scan too). Pleas try to understand that. Once upon a time I liked the sound of Bose and Cerwin Vega, now they make me cover my ears.


Green Jello - I have to ask, Have you ever heard a nice separate system in the same room on the same speakers (as your 5800) in your own house?

If not, how can you even have an opinion on separates in this scenario? Have you ever heard my exact system?

I have with the 5700 and my own system, that is how I have an opinion on the subject. I can then ASSUME that since the AVR 5700 was the best reciever at the time since it was just released (I know it has now been topped by the 5800) that my separate system in my house would sound better than all recievers at the time in my house. See the logic?

My small comment above was not meant to start a battle, it was an opinion. If you continue to read my first post, I say that if I were in the market for a reciever I would go Dennon all the way, I was impressed for what it was and for what it cost. Which was the whole point of my first post, to say yamaha was not the best.


[This message has been edited by 4KRG (edited October 31, 2000).]

Green Jello

Yes, I have tested all kinds of systems on MY speakers in MY house. You are assuming that I don't own separates because I own the 5800. That is completely wrong. The case is, that unlike most people who get into this endless separates vs. receivers debate, I own a very high-end separates system, yet I can still maintain an objective opinion on receivers without bashing them. I of course realize that separates are better. The statement that I was making is that the Denon AVR-5800 is the best RECEIVER ever made, and that it is certainly better than the Yamaha.

I am currently using my AVR-5800 as a pre-amp hooked up to 3 Bryston 4B ST amps and running the M&K 5000 THX system in ES/EX configuration. Up until recently I was using a Lexicon pre-amp and I sold it instantly after auditioning the 5800. Trust me. For a receiver, the Denon AVR-5800 is truly a remarkable piece of equipment. I have done some direct testing of it against the limited amount of separates you can get under the same price point. Where higher-end separates are still better than the 5800, there is nothing in it's price point that can touch it in terms of features and sound quality.

4KRG

Green Jello

So what is your problem then? I agree with you. I see you like separate systems also and can understand the difference. I said repeatedly that the Dennon was a nice piece in the receiver world and it smoked the yamaha.

I am not sure what you thought was going on here.

jumbojp

4KRG,

You are tall and you have a point!

I prefer seperates also, but I am staying out of this one


BTW, its Denon(one N)

Green Jello

quote:<HR>Originally posted by 4KRG:
Green Jello

So what is your problem then? I agree with you. I see you like separate systems also and can understand the difference. I said repeatedly that the Dennon was a nice piece in the receiver world and it smoked the yamaha.

I am not sure what you thought was going on here.<HR>

Maybe I misunderstood you. It just seems that whenever someone on this board wants to bring up a question on receivers, someone has to bring up separates. Anyway, I think we are two men with the same opinion. I think we see eye to eye. If your friend has a 5800, get him to let you use it as a pre-amp. I think you will be pleasantly suprised.

4KRG

quote:<HR>Originally posted by Green Jello:
Maybe I misunderstood you. <HR>

I seem to have that problem everywhere.

quote:<HR>
It just seems that whenever someone on this board wants to bring up a question on receivers, someone has to bring up separates.
<HR>

My fault, speaking in terms of sound quality it must be mentioned, my opinion. I just mentioned it, that's all, then someone else jumped on me (I know it was not you).

quote:<HR>
Anyway, I think we are two men with the same opinion. I think we see eye to eye.
<HR>

I would agree.

quote:<HR>
If your friend has a 5800, get him to let you use it as a pre-amp. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.<HR>

I bet you are right, my problem with receivers is the amps usually have no depth or balls. Why buy a receiver if you are only going to use it as a pre/pro? Don't answer that, it is just my thought process, I know why.

Anyway, I will have to have my buddy bring his 5800 over. My curiosity is really peaked now.

Green Jello

quote:<HR>Originally posted by 4KRG:
I bet you are right, my problem with receivers is the amps usually have no depth or balls. <HR>

I totally agree. I never really like the amp sections even in the Denon 5600 and 5700. The new 5800 however is pretty beefy,......for a receiver.

brilon

I see I am not the only one who is using a Denon as a pre/pro.I am using the Denon AVR-4800 as a pre/pro and my Sherbourn 5/1500 provides the muscle.I was looking for a pre/pro before I bought the 4800,but to get the features it provides,I would have to spend well over $3000.00.I am glad I went with the 4800 because of the options I have now.For instance,I just bought a pair of the passive SVS 20-39`s tuned to 18Hz.I now have the extra amplifiers to power them because I now am using the 4800 to power my rears.Since the 4800 has been measured at 148 watts by 5 with ALL channels driven.I feel I have enough power for the rears.

DVD_O_Rama

quote:<HR>Originally posted by 4KRG:
It is just funny that people (dvd-o-rama) think there is no benefit to separates over a receiver. YES they cost more, so what? If you are bargain hunting a reciever is the only way to go, this does not mean you get high sound quality, you just get a deal. I use to own recievers then I did some research and listenend on my own and found other things that sound better TO ME. I would suggest anyone here do the same. Listen to as much as you can, especially in your own home.

I understand people have different tastes in music and some people actually like the 'receiver experience' I am just not one of them (some folks like pan and scan too). Pleas try to understand that. Once upon a time I liked the sound of Bose and Cerwin Vega, now they make me cover my ears.


<HR>

First of all...why did you make it out that I said that seperates have no benefit over recievers??? I NEVER said that!! Jesus...I posed the question because I was looking for some intelligent answers on this topic. Maybe I should have looked elsewhere...I am about to invest a very large sum of money in to upgrading my home theater, and I wanted some 'real world' responses to my question. It's kind of funny though, looking back through your responses (in bewtween you putting words in my mouth) and you act as if you are talking about some joe-sixpack with a $400 receiver, and not someone with any kind of insight on the subject.
The fact is, I was interested in the Denon 5800 because of the dts ES capabilities. By the way, since you are seemingly unaware of the format, dts ES is the only true discrete 6.1 channel surround format, and not a 'feature' as you call it.

As a matter of fact you said...
"All the added digital surround modes in a reciever are a gimmick and they actually ruin the sound as it was 'meant' to be, even if I had a receiver I would not use them. Notice the higher end and even the most expensive brand pre/pro's do not have many of these 'features' as you call them, but all the cheaper recievers include them as a feature (joe six pack likes 'em). If you prefer wide screen over pan and scan then you should prefer a true DD or DTS over a digitally altered one, same thing."

Umm...maybe you should research the subject before you pan it. It seems to me that dts ES is...true dts.

Again, the only reason I mentioned this (seperates vs. receivers) was because I am about to invest a considerable amount of money into my system. I know Green Jello had the 5800 and thought highly of it, but since you brought up seperates being your preferred method, I wished to get your opinion on why, and what seperates could give me the dts ES format I wish to upgrade to. Much to my surprise, I come back to the thread, and I was misquoted and there was this lengthy debate about the subject.
Sheesh.
And another thing...

quote:<HR>Originally posted by 4KRG:
This is why I did not answer your question. I never claimed to know everything and every piece of equipment in the world, why don't you do a little research on your own and figure out what would sound better. I agree it will cost more, but a lexus costs more than a ford......

<HR>

As far as doing 'research'...that's what I was doing. Asking people who had experience. *SIGH*
Nice comparison between the Ford and Lexus ...I only listed the price of the 5800 as an illustration of what I saw it listed at somewhere online. If I was 'looking for a bargain', I don't think I would be investing in a $17,000 front projection system...ya' think?

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[This message has been edited by DVD_O_Rama (edited November 01, 2000).]

4KRG

You came off completely different in your first post. Sorry if I mis understood, your tone was basically 'get screwed, you can't beat $2700 and if you can prove it'

I NEVER SAID QUALITY SOUND WAS CHEAP! I NEVER SAID I COULD BEAT $2700, I NEVER SAID I WANTED TO!

If you can only spend $2700 then get the Denon IT IS A GOOD CHOICE FOR $2700!!!!!! but can be had cheaper.

I never wanted to have this conversation as it stupid to compare apples to oranges like you want to (yes you do, that is what you said in your first post)


My comment about the extra digital modes was in reference to things like 'matrix' 'hall' and whatever other crap digital modes they cram into receivers these days and had nothing to do with ES like you imply. You know the 'features' I was referring to in the $500 receivers that you don't find in higher end stuff. But stretch it anyway you will to make yourself feel better.

Whatever dude, you and I obviously could never have a conversation because we don't understand each other.

BUY WHATEVER YOU WANT I COULD CARE LESS!!!!

If you really wanted such advice and weren't just baiting me than why didn't you start your own thread (read: troll)? Instead of hijacking a YAMAHA receiver thread. Yeah that is the best way to get advice, post a question in an unrelated thread.

You win, I will leave......