exm

quote:<HR>Originally posted by spizz:
Hi. I just picked up the new Denon AVC-A1SE (AVR-5800) and IMO it is worth the money I paid for it. BTW I didn't pay RRP thats why I say that. It sounds brilliant for HT and 2 channel audio and thats what I love. IMO I also think the gap between the Denon and Lexicon has been between narrowed and closed. Why do I say this? Well I know of 2 Lexicon MC-1 owners that have changed over to the Denon and love it. You can check the post over on AVScience.

As I said I love this unit and it has everything "I" want in it. The new sound format was not my deciding factor, just the overall package.

Spero D.
<HR>

Can you give me the URL? I am just curious and I did some searching myself but couldn't find it. I must say that this is the first time I heard of such a switch. It's like switching from a Ferrari to a Mustang: both excellent but in it's class (no offence).

As I posted before: everyone has it's own taste and my personal one is a warm and soft sound compared to cold and digital (that's how I think the Denon sounds).

Have you ever listened yourself to a Lexicon?

spizz

exm- Cold and digital are to words that I wouldn't use myself to descibe the AVC-A1SE as it has such a warm sound. Maybe Denon have changed they way this unit sounds since you last heard a Denon?

Anyway here is the URL-
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/001626.html

Spero D.

BEC

I think it's great for the less than cutting edge types. So many quality, former-flagship/upper end DD/DTS receivers are going for 40%-60% off in order to make room for the flagship stuff.

Denon 3300, Pioneer Elite 26, Marantz 7000, Onkyo 777,Yamaha 995 even the recent Sony 777ES -in the $500-$700 range.


Even entry level stuff has dropped.
Onkyo 575, sony DB830, Pioneer Elite 24, Yamaha 595/6 around $300.


I actually think the flagship prices are pretty fair for state of the art equipment, although I would never spend THAT much to keep of with the Jones' (7.1 and DTS:Neo can wait). I couldn't believe my local dealer was sold out of 5800's (100 units) BEFORE his actual shipment came.

AS far as the price gap between separates and flagship receivers, maybe we'll all get lucky. Perhaps separates will come down a bit in price for competition. I'm still hoping products like the future Outlaw pre/pro make a step in that direction.

exm

Spizz: thanks for the URL. Interesting thread and forum, I'll subscribe there too. One thing I noticed though: the admin who switched from Lex to Denon uses external amps . That makes a difference.

And as far as my Denon experience goes: I only listened to the AVC-A1 and not the SE. At that time I was deciding between keeping my old combination (Marantz AV-600 THX Pre/Sony EDP-9ES DD processor/5xMarantz MA500 THX amps) or switching to the Denon AVC-A1/Onkyo DS-939. IMO the Denon was the best for movies, but the worse for music (lack of bass, flat/digital sound) while the Onkyo was somewhere in between. I decided to stick with my Marantz/Sony combo and upgraded a year later to a Lexicon DC-1 (which I expanded now to V.4 EX/ES and 2xMA700 amps making a total of 2xMA700 main/5xMA500 (center, rearx2, sidex2)).

I'm actually curious about the unit and since I'm an excellent client (and former coworker) of the AV-store I'll borrow a Denon and do a 1-on-1 comparison with the Lex, both Lex/Marantz Denon and the Denon with external amps.

I'll try to arrange it this weekend so I can post my comparision after the weekend (if anyone is interested)

-- Mark (not the ---Mark from the AV science forum-> I was first with the -- damnit! )

[This message has been edited by exm (edited October 06, 2000).]

spizz

Mark look forward to your comparison. Are you unbiased enought if the Denon turns out to be better than the Lexicon? (Saw your post on SMR mentioning the thread so I guess you'll find out whether its "crazy" for the Denon to be better or not )

And IMO once again I think the onboard amps are brilliant. Plenty of power (200 Watts 0.05% distortion at 6ohm * 7 channels) and plenty of head room to boot.

Spero D.

slaycon

I think it is GREAT to see them escalate in price. Companies often use this type of pricing scheme to subsidize their entry level units with revenues from high end units. Meaning entry level units are dropping in price even faster. I am obviously a consumer with entry level units. Moreover, I think this creates more awareness in consumers as they purchase entry level units and over time move up to high end.

KevinB

Receiver prices do seem to be high. The
technology for Home theater applications seems to change every year or so. Now we have DD 6.1 and 7.1 dpending upon the use of
one or two rear surround speakers to supplement the standard 5.1 setup. There
are alternatives to spending 3000.00 for a receiver. I own an Outlaw audio 750 multichannel amp that can be obtained for
just over one thousand dollars online. I have an Onkyo 777 THX select receiver being
used as a pre/pro. total cost...1800.00
dollars or so depending upon how good a deal
you can get for the Onkyo. The setup does not have 6.1 capability but what the heck!
it has 250 watts per channel into four ohms
and 165 into eight. Try and find that in a
flagship receiver at less than 4000.000.
Outlaw also sells a 6.1 receiver for 599.00
six channels driven at something like 70 watts per channel. Its called the 1050.
Can only be purchased online from Outlaw
Audio. It is my understanding that they plan
on expanding thier line of products to a true
audiophile 6.1 pre/pro next year that will be
THX certified. They use audiophile quality
elctronics and only sell online. No middle man. No overhead just good products at less
than the flagship companies will ever offer.

exm

Hi all... Just wanted to let you know that I'll receive the unit tomorrow and will test it asap (of course I'll be as honest as possible!)

M i c h a e l

At those prices, they've priced themselves
right out of the game.

Worse yet, receivers have almost no resale
value, whereas seperate components are
easily bought and sold. If bought used,
a seperate component can be sold years later
for up to 90% of it's purchase price,
essentially being owned for almost free!

Here's some food for thought:

Acurus ACT-3 ($1,600 street NEW)


ATI 1505 ($1,350 street NEW)



That's $2,900 for seperates that will deliver
near-reference sound quality, at the same
cost as a box stuffed with cheap components,
limited performance, and limited resale
value.


$.02

spizz

exm- Look forward to your comments. However after the crucifiying David Bott and AVScience got in your thread over at SMR (I believe one forum should never put another one down, but hey that's just me) you would have to be brave to post their if the Denon came out better.

Micheal- Totally disagree with your comments above.

Spero D.

exm

quote:<HR>Originally posted by spizz:
exm- Look forward to your comments. However after the crucifiying David Bott and AVScience got in your thread over at SMR (I believe one forum should never put another one down, but hey that's just me) you would have to be brave to post their if the Denon came out better.

Micheal- Totally disagree with your comments above.

Spero D. <HR>

Spero: don't doubt that I'll post them in both forums, unbiased.

I think the point the Micheal tries to make is the following: let's say you bought the Onkyo DS-939 a year ago for a lot of cash and now there's the DS-969. The DS-939's value is at least reduced by 50-75% and the possibility for an upgrade is questionable. I'm not familiar with the unit's Micheal is pointing out but the fact is that you can get high quality seperates for the price of a flagship receiver. And I'll tell you what my opinion is concerning the quality...

spizz

exm- "but the fact is that you can get high quality seperates for the price of a flagship receiver."

Okay. Considering that you can pick the Denon up for $2600 Street. If you can get me a Lexicon MC1 and also 7 Channels * 170 Watts 8 ohms of amplification, and 7 Channels * 200 Watts at 6 ohms for the same price please let me know where

As for resale value you could of bought the AVR-5700 for $2000 and its selling now on ebay for $1400. Therefore a 30% reduction is a good resale value to me.

Spero D.

M i c h a e l

quote:<HR>Originally posted by spizz:

Micheal- Totally disagree with your comments above.
<HR>

Which ones?

M i c h a e l

quote:<HR>Originally posted by spizz:
Okay. Considering that you can pick the Denon up for $2600 Street. If you can get me a Lexicon MC1 and also 7 Channels * 170 Watts 8 ohms of amplification, and 7 Channels * 200 Watts at 6 ohms for the same price please let me know where
<HR>

If you can't have a Lexicon, you don't
want seperates?

I'd put the Acurus / ATI combo up against
any all-in-one-box receiver any day.
And nope, I don't own either unit.

(For those unfamiliar with these models, pick
up a copy of Stereophile Guide to Home
Theater, they're always talking about them.)

spizz

"I'd put the Acurus / ATI combo up against
any all-in-one-box receiver any day.
And nope, I don't own either unit."

Making blanket statements Michael? You haven't heard the Denon and you don't own the Acurus or ATI. Well I can make those statements to. I'll put the Denon (and specifically the Denon AVR-5800/AVC-A1SE and not another all in 1 unit) up against the Acurus / ATI combo any day.

Spero D.

[This message has been edited by spizz (edited October 11, 2000).]

M i c h a e l

quote:<HR>Originally posted by spizz:
Making blanket statements Michael? You haven't heard the Denon and you don't own the Acurus or ATI. Well I can make those statements to. I'll put the Denon (and specifically the Denon AVR-5800/AVC-A1SE and not another all in 1 unit) up against the Acurus / ATI combo any day.
<HR>

How do you know what I've heard?

It's no secret that seperate amplifiers
have significantly more capacitance and
amperage than a receiver; hence my 'blanket
statement' is based in fact.

Just take a look at those torroidal
transformers in the ATI above, they probably
weigh more than the entire Denon unit by
themselves!

Don't get emotionally attached to a component,
just look at things objectively, and you can
see it not only costs less to buy seperates,
they perform better both sonically, and on
the used gear market.

exm

Hi all,

I'm not a professional reviewers so give me some credit... Just did some testing with the Denon vs Lexicon with the following setup:

1. Denon AVC-A1SE /internal amps
2. Denon AVC-A1SE/Marantz 2xMA700&5xMA500 external amps
3. Lexicon DC-1 V4/Marantz 2xMA700&5xMA500 external amps
Source:
1. Pioneer CLD-925 Laserdisc player as a CD-transport (excellent), connected via optical
2. Toshiba SD-2200 DVD player as DVD-player, connected via coaxial
3. All cables are Monster Cable, Speakers are Kef with a REL subwoofer, calibrated at 75 Db

Well... Where to start. Let me just fire the results for music and movies:
Music
1. Fair
2. Good
3. Excellent

Movies
1. Great/Excellent
2. Great/Excellent
3. Excellent

The explanations:
Music: The Denon internal amps are - although powerful - not quite capable of sending out the defined signals as the Marantz. When I play music on the Denon, it seems to sort of stick to the speakers and lack dynamics and most of all deep bass. Connecting the Marantz adds extra bass and dynamics but still no 'spatial' soundfield. With the Lexicon (in 2-Channel mode) the sounds really starts to shine and fill the room. Of course using Music Logic enhances the sound even more.

With movies the Denon sounds really good. I tried The Haunting DTS and it rocked the room. Adding external amplifiers didn't improve the sound in a major way. I tried the Lexicon in both Logic 7 as THX 5.1 EX mode and although Logic 7 sounds perfect with non EX/ES sources, I preferred native THX 5.1 EX.

When playing standard 5.1 movies, Lexicon takes a lead with it's Logic 7 processing which is by far superior to any of Denon's 5.1 modes.

Considering that you can get a loaded Lexicon DC-1 V.4 for around $2000 and have $1800 to spend for amps/cables I'm sorry for Denon-lovers but it just doesn't deliver the same performance.

[This message has been edited by exm (edited October 13, 2000).]

spizz

exm- Thanks for the review. However if you are considering that you can get a Lexicon DC-1 for $2000 then also consider that you can get the Denon for $2700 that leaves you $700 to get a 7 * 200 Watt Amplifier and all the other features that come with the Denon.

Thanks,
Spero D.

gotwavego

I bought the Yamaha AV-X1 back in May 2000 (~$2300), It has all the latest bells and whistles including 7 channels, DTS/DD EX, etc etc. Since I'll probably keep it for 4-5 years (I had my last receiver 9 years) its (in my mind) a good purchase.

In the past I had ADCOM amps and a Sony TA-1000ESD, but I prefer the simplicity of a single box.

Geno

exm

quote:<HR>Originally posted by geno:
I bought the Yamaha AV-X1 back in May 2000 (~$2300), It has all the latest bells and whistles including 7 channels, DTS/DD EX, etc etc. Since I'll probably keep it for 4-5 years (I had my last receiver 9 years) its (in my mind) a good purchase.

In the past I had ADCOM amps and a Sony TA-1000ESD, but I prefer the simplicity of a single box.

Geno<HR>

Geno: of course having a single box has it's advantages and as you might have read I also considered a single box above my former pre/processor/amps-combination but for me the most important issue is sound quality.

And how good the receivers are, IMO (and tested) they're still not on the same level as seperates and will probably never be due to the fact that having power supply, electronics, etc. seperated in a dedicated box will produce better results.

repstein

I compared a Porsche to a Mustang because I love Porsches and I think Mustangs are piles of junk. Anyways I like the idea of seperates because it is easier to upgrade and expand with seperates. It is more flexible. I have a Lexicon DC-2 and a B&K 7250 amp driving an all Maggie surround system. I also needed a strong amp to drive my Maggies since they are so inefficient. Anyways I think for a little more cash the seperates are worth it. If you are slick you can pick them up used. Though finding a Lexicon used is tough. There are other surround preamps though. I am just not a huge fan of them. Anyways it all depends on your budget and I guess passion for HT. There are three types of HT people, one the budget HT guy, two the gadget dude, three the audiophile. I am kinda a cross between two and three actually.


++Russ