abintra

I might be in the market for my first projector in the upcoming months and just heard of this one. Anyone familiar with it?

http://www.projectorcentral.com/opto...etime_dv10.htm

One immediate drawback I noticed is that it isn't HD even though where I saw it mentioned it was advertised as such. Everything is downconverted.

Few questions..

How does this one compare to others in its price range?

What would be the cost of a good quality true HD projector?

Are these things constantly improving over the next year or so in picture quality, life/price of lamps, and drops in projector prices?

What type of price increases would one be talking about when looking at good quality entry models compared to each step up and does each step represent a huge quality increase or after the initial worthy entry models the price starts to jump dramatically for each minor increase in "real world" picture quality?

IE. a good/great entry model would cost $x with the next jump in level costing 2-3x that but only offering a minor improvement in picture quality such that it would take having the two of them running side by side and constantly looking back and forth before subtle differences would be noticed.

Spiky

I know nothing about this PJ. If ProjCentral is correct and it compares favorably to the H31, it will be a good PJ. But I can place some pricing levels for digital PJs. At least the first couple. I don't know about CRT models, that would be another group of levels.

This is all my opinion/understanding. Outside of half a dozen specific models, I'm not that knowledgeable. Perhaps someone else can add to this.

Tier 0: Under $800. VHS res. Only good for certain uses. See the thread on this recently.

Tier 1: $800-1200. EDTV 800x600 or 854x480 usually. DLP usually. Now they have decent lumens and the contrast is getting better. (the PJ market is really getting nice, even low end)

Tier 2: $1200-2000. HDTV LCDs or better resolution EDTV DLPs. HD is 1280x720 true HD. ED can be 1024x768 or 1024x576.

Tier 3: $2000-3000. Amazingly, HDTV DLPs are now in this price range. Also, some HD LCDs with more features. 1280x720 or 1366x768 res. The DLPs in this range have basic features like manual lenses, the LCDs may have a powered lens or dynamic iris for better contrast.

Tier 4: $3000-6000. Essentially, take tier 2/3 and start adding better physical features. Different lens options, powered focus and zoom, higher lumen lamp, better scaler, etc.

Tier 5: (I'm less familiar, this may be off from now on) Around $8k-15k. 3 chip DLP shows up, DLP with 1920x1080p res has started showing up, LCOS/SXRD/DILA in 1280x720p shows up. Plus all the physical features from tier 4. Pretty sure all these have powered lenses and somewhat better scalers, for instance.

Tier 6: $20-30K. I think there are 2 right now. One from JVC and one from Qualia. DILA/SXRD in 1920x1080p. Nice. Even better scalers.

Tier 7: Are you nuts? Up to $100k. Super lumen cannons, mainly for serious boardrooms, I would say. There was a popular Sanyo for $80k. Supposed to be very nice.

Tier 8: Over $100k. I doubt very much these add much over the last 2 tiers, but they are out there. Maybe even more lumens?

NOTE: The above is street pricing at an authorized dealer. Estimated, of course.

Slayer2005

Actually the X1 can be had for about $400-$500 (800x600 at 4:3) and the 4805 can be had for around $700 (854x480 16:9) now. So they can be in the under $800 category. I think most of the under $800 category are 800x600 pjs. Also, the Sharp DT-300 can be found for $800 sometimes and it's a 1024x567 16:9 DLP.

The DV10 is a great pj. Even better than the H31, but I think $1,500 is a bit much for its resolution. There are true HD projectors in the same price range, but for them you'll need to make a trade off since they're LCD. You'll give up some contrast and black levels to get that higher resolution. In comparison to the DV10 they'll probably seem a bit washed out, but HD material will be a lot clearer/sharper (but the DV10 will still have better contrast/blacks). The DV10 will be superior for DVDs.

If you want great contrast and better than LCD blacks as well as a higher resolution you'll need to look at something like the NEC HT1100 (1024x768 4:3. Great blacks, contrast and colors) or the Sharp DT-300 (1024x576 16:9. Better than LCD blacks, but not as good as the DV10. Better resolution though. Good contrast. Great colors).

The DV10 will give a very nice HD picture, but something like the HT1100 (especially the HT1100) and DT-300 will give you a lot more pixels even though they aren't "true HD". They'll still give a better picture than the LCDs in the same price range. They close the gap in sharpness and detail without the flaws of $1500-$2000 LCDs.

If you can get upto $1,800-$2,000 to spend the HT1100 is your best compromise I think (It just came down to under $2,000 from nearly $4,500). If you want yoou can add a 16:9 anamorphic adapter later for squeezing all of the 4:3 1024x768 resolution into a 16:9 aspect ratio for more detail and sharpness, making it even closer to 720p.

If you'd rather save than spend more than the cost of a DV10 then the Sharp DT-300 would be a good choice if you're willing to have a bit less dark blacks. You'll get a higher resolution, 16:9 aspect ratio as well as a very short throw (ie very large image at shorter distances). The DT-300 may have a MSRP of about $4,500, but it can be bought for $800-$1000 now.

You can always use a gray screen to improve the blacks of something like the DT-300 if you need too. Most people are very satisfied with them though. Depends on the person I guess. I'm actually thinking about upgrading to the DT-300 myself.

Now that I think about it the X3 could be a good choice as well. It's an XGA 4:3 DLP and can be had for less than the DV10. The colors probably won't be quite as good as the DV10, DT-300 or HT1100, but it has good contrast and great blacks. It wasn't made specifically for home theater, but it was designed with home theater in mind like the X1 (which I own and love, even though I have a CRT projector that's in another league) and it's definitely better than the X1.

The best true HD projector you can get in your price range is a CRT projector, which can actually be had for under $800 range sometimes. A $700-$900 CRT can compete against virtually any digital and beat a majority of them, especially in black level, contrast, colors and smoothness. I get what looks like a $10,000-$20,000+ image out of mine. The drawback is CRTs are huge, but that doesn't matter to me once it's setup.

If you are not very picky with picture quality like I am I think you'll be very happy with any choice you make from all of the selections I listed (or the DV10). I think you'll be a bit happier with HD on a higher rez projector though than the DV10. I am picky sometimes when it comes to picture quality which is why I bought a CRT projector a while after I got my X1 (wanted to see how great the blacks, colors and contrast really were and they were as great as I was told), but I still think my X1 DLP is an excellent projector for the price. The only thing it lacks is good black levels (a gray or dark silver screen can fix this though), resolution for HD and fantastic colors (they look great until compared directly against a CRT, but then again a CRT dwarfs most anything when it comes to colors, blacks and contrast).

All the other projectors I've mentioned will be a clear improvement over the X1 so you should be very happy with any of the choices, because most people are stunned at the quality of my X1. The biggest (literally. lol) & most noticeable (as well as cheapest) step up in quality from a mid-range digital is a CRT projector, but they're not for everyone. It's really cool to be able to take a big step up in qualitiy to true HD for less money.

Spiky

I meant street pricing at an authorized dealer, I suppose I should add that to my post for clarity. Cheaper deals can always be found for various reasons.

abintra

Any chance replacement bulbs will be dropping in price in the forseeable future?

That is about the only thing that concerns me since I'm not one that wishes to monitor usage and could go through them rather quickly and I don't like the alternative of buying another TV and only use the projector for more serious viewing.

Slayer2005

I don't think they'lll be dropping much, if at all for quite some time. They are very overpriced, that's for sure. At least the hours seem to be going up. I remember seeing a place that would refurb your current bulb after it goes out for $190. I can't remember the link, but I'll try to find it.

One guy over at AVSForum actually left his Infocus X1 on for 18 hours a day and it finally went out at nearly 8,000 hours out of his 4,000 hour bulb (I think he set a world record. ). So perhaps it is best for bulb life to turn the unit on/off less which was kind of already known. It's better to run a projector for 3-8 hours straight than to run it for an hour and shut it off, especially if you plan on turning back on again soon. I usually leave my digital on for at least 3 hours whenever I turn it on.

It will take most people a while to just reach 2,000 hours on a 3,000-5,000 bulb. It would take a full year to reach 2,000 hours if you used the projector for 5.48 hours (rounded up just a little) every single day. Of course you're not guaranteed to get anywhere near the full amount from the bulb, but there is a possibility that you could end up getting more too.

DthRdrX

35mm people ....

Sdallnct

I agree. I think bulbs while something to think about, I really can't imagine bulbs preventing someone from getting a PJ.

I just hooked my son's PS2 up in our media room with my X-1. Now that will add another layer of usage to it. I still think I will get a solid two years at least out of the bulb. And besides I really have no intention of replacing the bulb. By that time I'll get a better PJ, most likely at least HD. Or heck, I might get a bulb and put the X-1 in another room and still get a HD PJ.

abintra

I'm looking at it like I would keep it for approximately ten years since that is about how long I've had my current tv. If it gets used as much as this tv has then the cost of bulbs could approach $4000 over that time so it would very much be considered with the cost of the projector and then comparing that to other options.

Upgrading projectors every couple of years isn't something I could afford short of reselling them for a substantial amount of the initial cost which seems unlikely.

Sdallnct

True, but some of the newer Rear Projection TV's take bulbs. In addition watching a movie on a 100" is worth any added expensive. IMHO it really is a totally different movie viewing experience. And while I do not plan on replacing the bulb in my x-1, I did not mean to replace the PJ every couple of years. I just meant if you got a really good deal on a PJ you might not make sense to replace the bulb. Many people are picking up X-1 right now for around $450 (refurbished). Not sure it make much sense in two to three years to put a $250 bulb in it when the technology will have changed so much and you could get so much more for the $$. I don't know the cost of the PJ's your looking at, but even something like the 4805 at around $750 (what I paid for my X-1) would probably give me pause to replace if I got three years out of it.

Now, I totally agree, you get a high end projector and spend a couple of grand on it (or more), then yea replace the bulb. But you spend that kind of money it's technology and PQ will likely still be "current". And the cost of the bulb would be well worth the experience.

Even a simple example of buying a builb every two years at $400 each (an X-1 bulb runs $225 but don't know if that is typical or not) over 10 years would be $2,000. If the PJ cost $2,000 you are still only looking at $4,000. $4,000 is not that much considering 50" HD plasmas, or even 50"-60" LCD/DLP RP TV's, they would run pretty close.

abintra

If I could get 2-3 years out of a bulb than it would be an easy decision. Same with if I could upgrade the projector every 3-4 years since the technology will certainly improve and drop within my price range. I just don't think either of those are likely for me given I expect the cost to be out of my range on both options.

Ideally, I'd love to purchase either something like a solid entry level true HD projector with the intent on keeping it for quite some time or being able to resell it and upgrade in a couple/few years when the current high end projectors drop to the current entry level price ranges. If either of those options were around $3000-$4000 total usage cost over a ten year period I'd jump on it but I don't gather that is realistic given the amount we would like to use it and have to replace the bulbs (I'm looking at yearly not every 2-3 which most peoples usage appears to be).

I'd love to be proven that my price expectations are wrong though. I just don't want it to have to be used when whomever is doing so is confronted with an almost metered viewing requirement of only for serious or "worthy" watching rather than treating it as one would do so with a regular TV that had a substantially longer life or have to consider buying a second tv in order to use that for some material.

Slayer2005

Maybe you should consider a CRT projector. You won't want to upgrade, because odds are you'll be downgrading even by paying 5-10 times more for a digital. With a CRT you'll get the true HD you want as well as contrast and blacks that no other digital or even the cinema can beat (especially blacks). No worrying about bulbs.

If you are willing to put up with the size of it then it should be fine. If you are planning on making a dedicated theater it's perfect for that. They are so cheap now it's unbelieveable.

When I got mine after I had had my X1 for nearly 2 years (bulb still going strong, btw) I was absolutely FLOORED by the quality. I thought the X1 was amazing, but the CRT made my jaw drop. DVDs that looked fantastic on the X1 looked 10X better on the CRT, especially dark films. I can honestly say several of the DVDs have given me the best picture I have ever seen (before viewing HD on the projector) and impressed me more than the HD I had seen up to that point on any display. I'm running about a 9ft wide screen.

The great thing about CRT is it can be both 4:3 or 16:9. They can do several refresh rates and multiple resolutions, so you won't be stuck with one native resolution. I run FFDShow through my HTPC (home theater computer) and it makes a lot of good looking DVDs rival HD quality.

My CRT only cost me $700. It cost me $300 less than my X1 cost me.. One thing I also discovered is that if a CRT breaks down you can easily get help on AVSForum and learn to fix it yourself, but if a digital breaks out of warranty you are screwed. Plain and simple. My X1 broke down about a month or two before before my 2 year warranty ended, so I got a replacement refurb with a new bulb, but had it been out of warranty I'd be screwed. CRTs have user replaceable parts and since they are so cheap nowadays you can simply replace the whole projector pretty cheaply if you pick the right one.

You can probably get 2 years use out of bulb if you aren't using it for 5 hours of every single day, but there are never any guarantees. I do recommend leaving the projector on for 3-5 hours most of the times you turn it on though. As long as you can go some days without using it or not using it for too long then you might make it to 2 years (I don't really know how often you plan to use this). If you plan on using it like a tv every single day for 5-6 hours it might not make it to two years, but you never know.

Maybe you should consider an X1 (or a 4805 refurb) if you are worried about not getting the most out of your bulb. I have seen them for $350-$450 on Ebay. This is a good entry level projector to test the waters with. A lot of people that got this projector actually have a hard time imagining it getting any better (but it does. ) and don't even feel they need to upgrade for a quite awhile. Using FFDSHow with DVDs (with an HTPC) makes a lot of them look pretty close to HD.

Here's a very old screenshot of my X1 playing T3 on my first temporary set up at my old apartment:

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/42581T3_8.jpg (Note: the pic was taken with a digital Camcorder with a 500-watt work light pointed at the ceiling in the other room, so I could lower grain from my camera. The actual quality is much better in person and even better with no lights on. Also, this was LONG before I began using a HTPC as my DVD player and it is far superior using FFDShow)

Here's an X1 HD Screenshot at 8ft wide from someone else who has a better low light digital camera: http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508...78P1230013.JPG

Here's a short (very small file too) video clip I shot about a year and half ago of my X1 playing Spiderman. Look how 3D it looks (it literally looks 3D in this particular video. See it for proof. ): www. angelfire.com/ar2/buyitcheap/Spiderman_Clip_1.avi (you'll need to copy and past and remove the space between "www." and "anglefire". They don't allow direct linking)

You can easily get or make grey/silver screens that improve black levels and percieved contrast of the X1 too. Right now I'm using a silver fabric screen that makes even some dark films very watchable with a light on right in front of the screen. When I shade this light it looks even better and white looks very badly washed out in comparison.

More X1 Screenshots:

LOTR from someone else with an X1: http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508/7422802aragorn.jpg

Finding Nemo: http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508...mo_S-video.JPG

Star Wars: http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/508...2yoda_duel.jpg

This projector is a fraction the cost of a DV10. Not as good as the DV10, but wows nearly everyone. The X1 and the 4805 are probably provide the best bang for you buck in the digital world. CRT provides the best bang for your buck overall since it spanks most digitals and can compete at the highest level with the best of the best and will beat even the best digitals in contrast/black levels since they don't use bulbs. The great thing is you can get these as low as an entry level DLP/LCD projector.

Sdallnct

Again, I don't know much about bulb life on anything but my X-1 (which is similar to the 4805), are rated at 4000 hours. Even if you say you were only going to get 3000 hours out of it that is over 8 hours per day every single day to go through one in a year. If you are truely watching 8+ hours of tv per year, then I would agee that a digital PJ or ANYTHING with a bulb would not be for you. But that sure is eliminating a lot.

As Slayer2005 says you do have the option of CRT front PJ, and while I agree, with him, I really recommend his recommendation of getting a really smoking price on a X-1 or 4805 and trying it. That is pretty much what I'm doing with my X-1. Oh I know I want a PJ, but didn't know resolution, light output, image size, noise, etc, etc. So this X-1 is letting me learn what I want or don't want. For example, when I do upgrade noise of the PJ will be something I look at. The fan on the X-1 is louder then I would like.

abintra

I'll likely end up strongly considering doing just that (looking into something like the 4805 or similiar for a time). I'm very new to all of the specifics so that might be the most realistic option in order to get firsthand knowledge of everything and then try to go from there.

Outside of seeing models mentioned here, and the shopathome tv channel believe or not, I'm really not too familiar with all the options that may exist. I'm still a few months away from any purchase but I wanted to start to do research and hopefully be able to narrow my focus to just a few.

I'm sure some CRT projectors were mentioned but I'm still trying to absorb everything so I'd appreciate any more specifics model recommendations and/or anything that may be coming by Q1 2006.

Other than size, what are the drawbacks to CRT projectors? Seems like there must be something if they rival or better other more costly options (difficult to match screens for it/costly screens, require a HTPC in order to get the most out it, etc ?).

Slayer2005

UGH! My post froze during the preview. I'll try to keep it much more simple.

CRT negatives:


1: Convergence required during initial setup. Very easy to do though. After done you shouldn't have to touch it very often.
2: Possible chance of burn-in like with CRT RPTVs. Easy to avoid. Keep contrast at normal calibrated levels and don't display static objects for a super long time.
3: Need and HTPC (recommended so you'll have gamma control), scaler or a transcoder to hook up a progressive scan/upconverting DVD player.
4: Takes special VGA to 5BNC cables. Easily found on Ebay for $15.00-$20.00. You can use S-Video on most, but it'll only be 480i and there will be scanllines visible.
5: Must do optical and ellectronic focus. Optical is 2 piecs on each of the three lenses. Very simple and straight forward to do. So is electronic focus. Simply turn three knobs. Not as simple as turning a digital's ring left or right, but not brain surgery either.


Screen choices is actually A LOT more simple for CRT. White screen. 1.0-1.3 gain.

My CRT has given me the best images I have ever seen from any display system (before viewing HD on it) with some of my upscaled DVDs with FFDShow. Dark films/scenes on a CRT will make you begin to think it looks like the cinema & most digitals have a layer of fog over their dark scenes. It makes them look kind of hazy in comparison. lol.

The ECP series is probably the best beginner unit. I have an ECP4500+. www.avsforum.com has a CRT section that has tons of useful info and helpful people.

abintra

I've been waiting until I have a clearer focus and understanding before tackling avsforum. There are so many threads and the site is unbelieveably slow for me that short of knowing what to search for and/or reading for days on end I have no idea how to find info there.

Greatly appreciate all the thoughts and info shared here.

Slayer2005

Personally, I like having both a CRT and a digital projector. The best and cheapest way to do this is to get an X1 and one of the ECP series CRTs. There is a good chance you can get this combo for less than a DV10, which would probably make if feel like you stole something.

The X1 can be used when there is a bit more ambient light present and is definitely used more for video games & TV. CRT is used more for DVDs/HDTV, basically any film material. You could actually install one on the floor/table and one on the ceiling if you wanted too.

There is a chance you could have the combo for as low as a 4805's retail price of a $1,000, which is pretty darn good considering a CRT is in a league of it's own just by itself. I'd say you can get this combo in the $900-$1,200 range. I can't see anyone wanting to upgrade from this combo for a long time unless they're curious how great the more expensive CRTs are, which I have been told are as big of a step up as my CRT is over the X1. Now that is mind blowing to me, because I simply can't even imagine how that could be possible, but it has me curious. That's for sure.

Having a combo would also save bulb life. Just something to consider.

abintra

Everyone has definitely given me a lot to consider and is greatly appreciated. Very nice getting some unbiased advice and feedback.

Being able to spend a lot of time at home myself and having films/ball games on whilst doing other things, let alone others using it, is something I'm going to have to balance with bulb costs since that means a tradeoff somewhere (either more expensive than we want or a combo of some sort) because we definitely would like to get a quality projector if at all within our budget.