I don't know how bfrank would answer, but my answer is basically, yeah.

Lets stick to speaker wire and not get into coax cables and things. Lets assume "zip cord" construction, ie two parallel wires, pretty close together. If they are of the same wire gauge, I doubt you can tell them apart in double blind ABX testing.

Speaker wire is not shielded, and insulation isn't real big factor unless it ages poorly and cracks from either heat or sunlight. I'm sure there are brands that bad, but any reasonable quality will be fine.

In real estate, they say it is location, location, location. In speaker wire, it is gauge, gauge, gauge, then maybe polarity indication to tell wires apart, insulation quality, and terminations if any. (Stripped wire under binding post works well, and is very inexpensive.)

If you think your cables are attractive, that's fine. Mine are ugly, cheap, out of sight, and work equally well. All that really matters is whether you have reached point of diminished returns on improving damping ratio.

Lets stick to speaker wire and not get into coax cables and things. Lets assume "zip cord" construction, ie two parallel wires, pretty close together. If they are of the same wire gauge, I doubt you can tell them apart in double blind ABX testing.


I've never participated in a double-blind test before, and have no need to. The thought of anyone telling me <i>what I can't hear</i> is absurd, and doesn't merit my time to prove to them otherwise. Considering that my mains in my HT (not the 2-channel set-up) are bi-wired, I can't really say that I can relate to the two paralell pieces of zip cord you describe. I do find it humorous that you can tell <i>me</i> what I can't tell the difference in, though. Thanks ;)


If you think your cables are attractive, that's fine. Mine are ugly, cheap, out of sight, and work equally well. All that really matters is whether you have reached point of diminished returns on improving damping ratio.

Appearance is not the main selling point in anying I purchase. That being said, did I bring home the zip cord as part of my audition for speaker wire? No. (considering they are digital, zip cord wasn't an option) Did I pay more then you did for your wire? I would bet the farm on it. But...does yours sound better to you? Guess what, I don't have your ears and I'm not the type to tell someone else what they can or can't hear ;)

(I'll give you a hint though...my money is on my Meridians)

I didn't say you can't hear the difference, I said I doubt you can; only double blind ABX can establish that one way or the other. Of course if everyone knows what is being used, they can incorporate their biases in the result. Double blind ABX testing is the only way to prove real auditory difference. I find it humorous that you are so sure the brand of wire you paid a lot for is so obviously superior that comparison testing is unwarranted. As long as you are happy with it, fine.

You might try biamping instead of biwire.

I never said I didn't compare. Every single piece of gear (including cables and wire) in my home was auditioned with my other equipment befopre I decided to use it long-term.
Actually I tried about six different brands/models before I settled on the Transparent Audio cables I use now. I've never used <b>zip cord</b> or similar type wire in my comparisons.

And I am a fan of bi-amping btw, I just choose to not mix amps, and the cost of buying new matched amps for that purpose aren't in the cards right now (and since my speakers are actually tri-wireable, the cost would be obviously additional)

Quickly- No I would not say that at all. What I said is for a given "spec" they are the same.

The science is fixed on this topic. If they measure the same there is no way anyone could hear the differenece of wire (where all other factors are exual.

Side note, I also felt this way abotu double blind testing until I was put through it. I had to repeat a test three days in a row. The first day one of the three clearly was better. On the next day there was no clear difference. Nothing changed in the set up so why the difference in what I was hearing?

I suggest reading Floyd Toole's work on this subject. It is actually interesting.

Originally posted by bfrank
Quickly- No I would not say that at all. What I said is for a given "spec" they are the same.

The science is fixed on this topic. If they measure the same there is no way anyone could hear the differenece of wire (where all other factors are exual.

Again, you are eliminating other factors such as termintation, shielding, insulation, etc. And in my opinion, you are eliminatiing interaction with hardware, which is a huge difference. Are you going to say that amps and/or processors don't color sound quality either? Measure all you want; my ears aren't o-scopes, and I don't need to see wave forms to hear a difference. I'd rather rely on what I hear then a piece of hardware (YMMV, of course). Maybe I am misreading your posts, but you are saying if 2 pieces of of wire measures the same, then they are sonically identical. If that's the case, every single manufacturer is ripping off consumers, and lying to them by saying their cables sound different. Correct?
Then Radio Shack speaker wire sounds identical to I dunno...Kimber Cable select speaker wire?

Side note, I also felt this way abotu double blind testing until I was put through it. I had to repeat a test three days in a row. The first day one of the three clearly was better. On the next day there was no clear difference. Nothing changed in the set up so why the difference in what I was hearing?

Again, I can't tell you what you can and can't hear.


I suggest reading Floyd Toole's work on this subject. It is actually interesting.

I've quite familiar with Floyd's work, and he is obviously well-respected in the audio community (with good reason).
Anything in particular you want me to re-read, or send you a copy of, perhaps?

Not trying to sound confrontational at all, and I love a good debate.
Regardless, I think we have all agreed that you should buy what you want, which is the bottom line.

Cheers,
Erik the Red

Floyd is best know for explaining why we cant trust our perceptions of listening unless all factors are contolled. The psycology is a way bigger larger factor then most believe. With his meathods this debate is moot because it removes personal views and perceptions. I was lucky enough to work with Floyd and to be put through his listening tests. I assure you it was an eye opener to these kind of topics.

I dont know if the papers are online but his two most famous papers were published by the AES.

Is I explained earlier in this post, the system has in impact on what wire spec is needed. I am only talking wire in this thread.

Yes I am saying the two wires that measure the same will sound the same.

Let me ask you how "highend brand x" designs their wire and then how it inspects incoming shipments? If the supplier meets the spec is the wire of equal quality?

The science is fixed outside of that it is all marketing. However, this is not discounting the science factors as I have pointed out a few times.

I think this is the article that bfrank is referring to ...

Speaker Design: Audio-Art and Science by Flyod E. Toole, Ph.D.

The blind-test concept is further discussed in specific details concering HK blind-testing room called the Multichannel Listening Lab (MLL) in this on-line article OBJECTIVE SUBJECTIVITY by Scott Wilkinson for Electronic Musician, Jul 1, 2001.

Back on the topic of wires, I fully agree w/bfrank which is also based on various articles published by Stereo Review (now Sound&Vision) Magazine, specifically June 1998 Stereo Review "To tweak, or not to tweak?" by Tom Nousaine:

But I can also see the reason behind ...

...speaker vs. wire $$ % vs. brand-name vs. precieved hearing differences, ...

... but for the non-critical joe-6-pack consumer, using 18-16 GA (up to 50') polarized zip cord wire will serve his non-critical listening Audio/Video purposes.

Phil

WOW - you really know your stuff :up:

Thats not the exact white paper but it is excellent and explains my view perfectly. Anyone that is interested should take the time to read this paper.

Sorry I didn't cut and paste a link to any of Toole's papers that were online. Maybe I would have gotten a WOW too if I did? Anyhoo, It's great that the info is online, as I wasn't aware it was. More people should take a close look at his work, as his insight is quite interesting into the subject at hand.

THAT BEING SAID...if Floyd toole told me that the earth was flat would I believe him? No. I know otherwise.

And as I have said many, many times I have no need for a double blind test for the wire in my system. When choosing my speaker wire I <b>did</b> compare different brands, and chose what was best to my ears. I had no objective or hidden agenda. I tried many different brands and had no preference over one to another, I just wanted quality. I didn't use zip cord in my comparisons. Would it sound better then what I have now? Well, let's just say I would bet a resounding no, across the board. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Wouldn't be the first time, and I'm sure it wouldn't be the last. I have nothing against blind testing. if you feel the need to do so, fine, but don't tell me I need to.

But again, the 'science is fact' rhetoric is getting old. You claim wire is wire (please don't keep denying that, you've made it clear you think it is) but then you also say that only in regard to speaker wire. So...interconnects are different then? Is there not wire in them, as well?

You kep talking about raw wire, when we both know packaged speaker wire is not raw wire. There are many variations and designs, terminations, insulation, et al. I feel like a broken record here.

If the engine in a Yugo and a BMW have the same spec they are the same quality car then, right?

Regardless of that...tell me honestly Brian, what speaker wire do you have on your speakers right now, and what are you planning on using with the TADs? Radio Shack?

dvd,

I am not challenging and really in some ways I agree. I was just trying to share my experience.

My "wow" to Phil was more from the big JBL thread that we were going back and forth in and I meant no disrespect to you. Sorry.

I am not "denying" anything here. I was trying to clerify what I was saying which could best be summed up in-

"speaker wire from two vendors that have identical specs with have identical impact on a system"

You are correct when you mention interconnects which is a different topic then what I have been discussing. However if the connection is equal then the above statement is also true. The connect is the big variable in interconnects and makes it a much more complex topic.

I must have mislead you to think I was talking bare wire. I meant identical spec - insulation, termination, conductor material, strand and braid. So I think we are talking past each other.

I was saying that "highend brand x" wire and no name wire of equal spec will sound the same.

Not that "highend brand x" and 22 ga zip cord will be the same.

For our system we use OFC wire with a Ga designed for the application and we solder all connection.

No need to apologize at all. You clarafied some things that I misread.
You said 'our' system...you mean your personal HT at home?
That's what I was inquiring about. I am highly curious as to what kind of speaker wire you are running, after reading your feelings on the matter.

And no hard feelings at all. Please don't ever feel the need to say 'sorry' to me in reference to a discussion like this. I'm not one to be offended, especially by a civil disussion like this. Tact and intelligence go along way with me, something you obviously posess and I enjoy your posts.

Cheers,
Erik the Red

I have wire made by our one of our suppliers (free :) )

Its 12 Ga OFC (Oxygen Free Copper) with no termination. Interconnects are from different brands that I have collected over the years, some I made myself.

This is the same we use inside our new system at work.

Of course we use higher quality (borrowed) interconnects at shows.

One point I really want to make. Is the spec of the wire. If not for some real data how do you know that each length of "highend brand x" is the same. In production we have to inspect parts for before we build. If the part meets the spec it is accepted. So all the marketing hype around wire is really BS if you just look at the engineering data (which is all that matters). I assure you there is tons of BS in what "highend" wire companies claim.

Okay, you guys seem to know a lot about speaker wire. I have an easy question... is it a good idea to tin the ends of the wire? (I use compression banana plugs at my receiver, and the red/black springy type connectors build into the speakers.)

Like most things regarding speaker wire, some say you should tin it, while others say it won't make a difference.

Tinning the cable or adding ends makes it neater and easier to change. Also it hopefully slows or prevents oxidization of the copper.

We have found tinned wire tends to take a set over time and result in a loose connecting in binding posts. So if you do just check that the post are tight after a few weeks. But on the spring side it would be fine.

Oh, I dont tin mine.

Yep - bfrank and I had a very civil discussion where I was the enlightened (corrected) by bfrank's personal inside INFO / experience vs. my apparently limited public JBL product news release INFO. - Thanks again bfrank! Great INFO!!! :)

Anyway, my interest in JBL let me to researching HK website where I've found Dr. Floyd Toole's White Papers.

Back to this "speaker wire" subject ...

We (@ KLA Instruments mid-late 80's - now KLA-Tencor) observed the same problems with our Capitol Equipment installed since 1979, scattered around the world like @ INTEL, Fujitsu, AMD, Texas Inst., Samsung, etc.

Those intermittent failures were due to tinned wires working itself loose in time, which were originally caused during the shipment phase of our machines (Inspection tools for Chip Manufactures). So we started removing the 'Strip & Tin' notes from hundreds of Cable drawings per ECO (Engineering Change Orders) instructions,

Later that month, I went home, cut-off the tinned ends (stereo setup then), re-stripped back the insulation to length, twisted the stranded wires tight and re-inserted my speaker wires back into the speaker binding clips / post.

Today, I use banana plugs for my Center & Front's, and my non-tinned stranded wires provides superior solid connection when I screw & tightened the banana plug base down to complete my plug connections. The same is true for my surrounds (x4), inserting the non-tinned stranded (just twisted tight) wire provides a superior solid connection when I tightened the speaker binding posts down.

Phil