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Make a bold statement about comics

Old 10-29-14, 12:35 AM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fujishig
As an avid New Mutants fan, I'll admit as a kid I just wasn't into Sienkiewicz either.

Here's a story Jim Shooter tells about Bill breaking into comics because of Neal Adams, his change in style, and him dressing up like Spider-man to get a free trip to Comiccon courtesy of Marvel:
http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/05/bi...pider-man.html
His style started to change during his New Mutant run. It was really different and I didn`t like it. However when he applied his new style to his later work I really appreciated it.
Old 10-29-14, 02:47 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by davidh777
Yeah, I have no problem with people asking for recs here. Now maybe if they were asking the same questions over and over.
I'd actually also say that most comic book fans I encounter LOVE talking about stories and making recommendations. I'm surprised it would be an annoyance for kodave.
Old 10-29-14, 03:53 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fumanstan
I'd actually also say that most comic book fans I encounter LOVE talking about stories and making recommendations. I'm surprised it would be an annoyance for kodave.
I think I explained why I find it lazy/annoying pretty clearly (i.e. Google it first) so I'm not sure why it's surprising and won't repeat myself on that front.

And it's one thing to talk about stories and another for someone to lazily ask for basic information you can find from dozens of sources. Lazy rec requests can be a catalyst for talking about stories in greater detail but often that's not the case from my experience. And there is a difference between something like lazily asking for basic Spider-Man or Batman recs versus something more obscure or off the beaten path like Elseworld Batman tales or translated European comics.
Old 10-29-14, 04:36 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Wolverine is the most boring and pointlessly idiotic superhero ever created.

The Wolfman/Perez-era New Teen Titans were only good for about 4 years, which was followed by about 12 years of swill.

The Legion of Super-Heroes >>> X-Men

90s Superboy was the comic book equivalent of The Simpsons's "Poochy", a middle-aged suburban white guy's impression of what a cool teenager was. "LEATHER JACKET! SUNGLASSES! EARRING!! HE'S EXTREME!!!"

The best Marvel Comics run ever was Michelinie/Layton run on IRON MAN in the 1980s.
Old 10-29-14, 04:52 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by kodave
I think I explained why I find it lazy/annoying pretty clearly (i.e. Google it first) so I'm not sure why it's surprising and won't repeat myself on that front.

And it's one thing to talk about stories and another for someone to lazily ask for basic information you can find from dozens of sources. Lazy rec requests can be a catalyst for talking about stories in greater detail but often that's not the case from my experience. And there is a difference between something like lazily asking for basic Spider-Man or Batman recs versus something more obscure or off the beaten path like Elseworld Batman tales or translated European comics.
It's surprising because I just have the complete opposite experience. I'm only a casual comic book fan, but because of all the super hero movies I get people that ask me about characters and stories somewhat regularly. Just this morning a friend at work asked me about Ultron, and the last thing I would think of is responding with "just Google it!" To me, it's not even close to being lazy and more about discussion and interaction with someone more knowledgeable.

In fact, i'd say nothing is a bigger turn off then to show interest in something and have someone yell at me to research it myself and calling me lazy, regardless of subject. It's funny because personally i'm someone that does Wikipedia just about anything and everything I come across when I'm curious, but wouldn't blame someone who doesn't. If all comic book store owners had the attitude you're describing, it's no surprise its dying

Don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for "Let me Google that for you" type of questions with anything, but I think people asking for recommendations is a good thing if we're talking about the comic book industry as a whole. And has certainly helped a casual fan like me on the questions i've had.

Last edited by fumanstan; 10-29-14 at 05:03 PM.
Old 10-29-14, 05:23 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

I was amazed when I was a kid in the 60s and am still amazed that people like super hero comics. They are ridiculous.
Old 10-29-14, 06:28 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by Hokeyboy

90s Superboy was the comic book equivalent of The Simpsons's "Poochy", a middle-aged suburban white guy's impression of what a cool teenager was. "LEATHER JACKET! SUNGLASSES! EARRING!! HE'S EXTREME!!!"
Don't you mean X-TREME! It all started with an X.
Old 10-29-14, 06:54 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by Hokeyboy
Wolverine is the most boring and pointlessly idiotic superhero ever created.

The Wolfman/Perez-era New Teen Titans were only good for about 4 years, which was followed by about 12 years of swill.

The Legion of Super-Heroes >>> X-Men

90s Superboy was the comic book equivalent of The Simpsons's "Poochy", a middle-aged suburban white guy's impression of what a cool teenager was. "LEATHER JACKET! SUNGLASSES! EARRING!! HE'S EXTREME!!!"

The best Marvel Comics run ever was Michelinie/Layton run on IRON MAN in the 1980s.
1. I don't know about the most. He's obviously overused, especially for a guy who originally wasn't a mutant and wore claws on his gloves, and his haircut is out of control, but I can think of lots of other superheroes more worthy of the distinction, even popular ones.
2. Didn't Perez leave after four years to do Crisis, then WW? I'll have to look, but I think I enjoyed all Perez-drawn years. Grummet was a decent artist, but the plotting did go downhill quickly, especially considering how popular the team was initially.
3. Can't argue with that, as I love the Legion (even the post Zero Hour legion); the Imperial Guard as a Legion substitute made it interesting.
4. Can't argue with that either. I hated the haircut and the glasses. (and hey, Grummet again). But after they completely changed him, he became a decent character. And Young Justice was great.
5. Now that's controversial. A great run, but so many great Marvel runs then and now.

Similar to your Wolverine one, though, is that I never saw anything special about Spider-man. It's not that there haven't been great runs that I've enjoyed, just nothing to make him stand out as more important than any other Marvel hero.
Old 10-30-14, 01:18 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fumanstan
It's surprising because I just have the complete opposite experience. I'm only a casual comic book fan, but because of all the super hero movies I get people that ask me about characters and stories somewhat regularly. Just this morning a friend at work asked me about Ultron, and the last thing I would think of is responding with "just Google it!" To me, it's not even close to being lazy and more about discussion and interaction with someone more knowledgeable.

In fact, i'd say nothing is a bigger turn off then to show interest in something and have someone yell at me to research it myself and calling me lazy, regardless of subject. It's funny because personally i'm someone that does Wikipedia just about anything and everything I come across when I'm curious, but wouldn't blame someone who doesn't. If all comic book store owners had the attitude you're describing, it's no surprise its dying

Don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for "Let me Google that for you" type of questions with anything, but I think people asking for recommendations is a good thing if we're talking about the comic book industry as a whole. And has certainly helped a casual fan like me on the questions i've had.
I'm talking about online. When you're online, the whole "Let Me Google That For You" think is very much fair play in my opinion. And I don't think it's limited to comic books. It basically comes down to the point where it's not really about discussion or sharing, but doing someone else's homework for them before they've put any effort into the subject themselves. I'm not a car guy, but I wouldn't go onto an auto forum and ask "What midsized sedan should I buy?" without at least doing research from the many different and major car buying resources out there.

In person is different. I'm not saying a guy behind a counter at a comic shop should say "Google it." It's part of his job to give recommendations and answer questions. Or if you're having a beer with a friend who isn't really into comics and he's like "I hear the new Batman vs. Superman is inspired by The Dark Knight Returns. What are some other good Batman books?," the answer isn't to yell at him and tell him to Google it.

But when you're already typing out a question on an online forum, you could have already typed that question into Google. Have parents and teachers stopped teaching kids to attempt look things up for themselves first BEFORE coming forward with a question? That's how I was raised and educated. You've got to put in some effort yourself first.
Old 10-30-14, 03:03 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fujishig
Similar to your Wolverine one, though, is that I never saw anything special about Spider-man. It's not that there haven't been great runs that I've enjoyed, just nothing to make him stand out as more important than any other Marvel hero.
Those are fighting words. Pray we never meet in a darkened alley. DC would be willing to trade Green Lantern and Hawkman for Spider-Man. We'll even toss in a Booster Gold.
Spoiler:
Old 10-30-14, 03:11 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by kodave
I'm talking about online. When you're online, the whole "Let Me Google That For You" think is very much fair play in my opinion. And I don't think it's limited to comic books. It basically comes down to the point where it's not really about discussion or sharing, but doing someone else's homework for them before they've put any effort into the subject themselves. I'm not a car guy, but I wouldn't go onto an auto forum and ask "What midsized sedan should I buy?" without at least doing research from the many different and major car buying resources out there.

In person is different. I'm not saying a guy behind a counter at a comic shop should say "Google it." It's part of his job to give recommendations and answer questions. Or if you're having a beer with a friend who isn't really into comics and he's like "I hear the new Batman vs. Superman is inspired by The Dark Knight Returns. What are some other good Batman books?," the answer isn't to yell at him and tell him to Google it.

But when you're already typing out a question on an online forum, you could have already typed that question into Google. Have parents and teachers stopped teaching kids to attempt look things up for themselves first BEFORE coming forward with a question? That's how I was raised and educated. You've got to put in some effort yourself first.
Alas, I still disagree. Especially if you're asking the question among a small community you're familiar with like this forum here. Oh well
Old 10-30-14, 03:36 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger
Those are fighting words. Pray we never meet in a darkened alley. DC would be willing to trade Green Lantern and Hawkman for Spider-Man. We'll even toss in a Booster Gold.
Spoiler:
That reminds me of when DC and Marvel were on good terms back in 1996. Right around the time the DC vs. Marvel mini-series came out, there was talk of DC borrowing a character from Marvel and vice versa for a year. It definitely wouldn't have been any of their A-Listers (like Batman, Wolverine, Spider-Man, Superman). More along the lines of Robin stuck in the Marvel universe for 12 issues and Colossus stuck in the DCU.

It fell through due to how reprints would be handled. There's no way DC would allow Marvel to release a Robin TPB a few years down the road.
Old 10-30-14, 04:04 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fumanstan
Alas, I still disagree. Especially if you're asking the question among a small community you're familiar with like this forum here. Oh well
I agree with you, especially if it's not just a random forum. This comes down to individual tastes, and the best advice you'll probably get from a search will be either user reviews or a forum discussion anyway. If it's something like "when does Arachnid man #45 come out" then that's easily found via search, but if you're looking for opinions, I don't see a problem with asking and encouraging discussion. Most of the time people bring up great runs that I had long forgotten about, too.

As far as the loaner/crossover character, the problem would be that the company publishing the comic doesn't have any long term stake in the character, so why build them up just for your rival?
Old 10-30-14, 11:37 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by The Valeyard
That reminds me of when DC and Marvel were on good terms back in 1996. Right around the time the DC vs. Marvel mini-series came out, there was talk of DC borrowing a character from Marvel and vice versa for a year. It definitely wouldn't have been any of their A-Listers (like Batman, Wolverine, Spider-Man, Superman). More along the lines of Robin stuck in the Marvel universe for 12 issues and Colossus stuck in the DCU.

It fell through due to how reprints would be handled. There's no way DC would allow Marvel to release a Robin TPB a few years down the road.
I vaguely remember something like that, I think it was supposed to be Robin going to Marvel and one of the X-Men going to DC.
Old 10-31-14, 03:59 AM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by kodave
I'm talking about online. When you're online, the whole "Let Me Google That For You" think is very much fair play in my opinion. And I don't think it's limited to comic books. It basically comes down to the point where it's not really about discussion or sharing, but doing someone else's homework for them before they've put any effort into the subject themselves. I'm not a car guy, but I wouldn't go onto an auto forum and ask "What midsized sedan should I buy?" without at least doing research from the many different and major car buying resources out there
I have to disagree.

We're all friends here, so as far as I'm concerned asking advice and opinions, even for google-able stuff, is fair game. Opinions aren't like true or false facts that are easily found, and we have a sizable crowd here with a lot of varied interests, knowledge, and experience. And this is a discussion board.

For example, if someone asked about good Batman stories having already read the usual suspects like DKR and KJ I might recommend the Batman and Detective Comics from the late 80s. Those comics, from Batman #400-500 and Detective Comics from about #560-660, basically between Crisis on Infinite Earths and Kinghtfall, is a particularly strong run, especially the issues drawn by Aparo and Breyfogle. That kind of advice isn't something you'll necessarily get from a Top 10 list on io9 or some similar site.

Last edited by Josh-da-man; 10-31-14 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 10-31-14, 06:42 AM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Worst comic book artist: Jim Lee

Worst comic book writer: Jeph Loeb
Old 11-01-14, 11:31 AM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Being new to comics i will say google only work so well for looking for recommendations bc all lists include the same old titles and by asking here and reading threads i found a lot of titles id normally skip on.

That said....again new to comics!
I enjoy the n52 alot more than pre 52 dc titles. I didnt grow up with these character so i dont have any bond but n52 was set to bring in new dans and it worked for me.

Im also reading the marvel order and enjoy the marvel books from the early mid 60s ff, avengees, etc a lot more then current marvel release.

I prefer dc villians over marvels and loved villians month and is what got me into comics and reading regularly
Old 11-01-14, 11:35 AM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by ytrez
Worst comic book writer: Jeph Loeb
I don't think many would disagree with you.
Old 11-01-14, 12:07 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Im not too familiar with jeph loeb other then long halloween and daredevil yellow/hulk grey (i believe the latter was him) i enjoyed both book so was curios of the dislike of him? Is it his writing style or do you guys hate him for a bad run on a cherished character?
Old 11-01-14, 04:17 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Jeph Loeb is great with Tim Sale on Long Halloween / Dark Victory / Catwoman When In Rome / Haunted Knight. The Marvel Grey/Blue/Yellow trilogy by them is also good. Superman For All Seasons might be the best Superman book ever. Loeb's Batman/Superman is good. Fallen Son: Death of Captain America is decent. I haven't read the first new Nova arc he wrote, but I believe it got okay reviews.

I think after his 17 year old son died of cancer in 2005, it really took a toll on his work going forward. Some might say he's not the same writer he once was before his son's death and that his quality declined. I believe the new Nova is heavily influenced by his son's death. He also drew upon his son's death when writing Fallen Son. I believe he's also responsible for Red Hulk and everything that unleashed into the Hulk comics, which wasn't well received critically despite being a big seller at the time. I think he's done mostly Marvel work in the last several years and I don't think much of that has been well liked by critics.
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Old 11-01-14, 04:31 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Gotcha. Being a horror fan i always giggle at how everyone in that community has to one up each other by watching a more obscure/violent title then the person before him where it becomes a competition. I believe i found a fanbase worse then that with comic books.
Thats one of the first time i asked a question like that and got an actual response and not a typical "everyone knows he sucks thats why"
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Old 11-04-14, 02:42 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Loeb/McGuinness on Superman/Batman and the Red Hulk stuff was basically him just going overboard, and I didn't mind (part of it is that if I like the artist, it makes things a lot more tolerable than if the art is questionable). It's not necessarily high-minded stuff, but I think they work well together in a different way than he writes for Sale.

For some reason I couldn't do the same thing with his Ultimates run with Joe Mad.

But what you're really saying is that Lee is worse than Liefeld, which I cannot support.
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Old 11-04-14, 02:56 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

I would easily say Lee is a worse artist than Liefeld, because Liefeld isn't an artist.
Old 11-04-14, 07:24 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Erik Larsen's Savage Dragon is the best superhero comic book series ever.
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Old 11-04-14, 07:31 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by Josh-da-man
For example, if someone asked about good Batman stories having already read the usual suspects like DKR and KJ I might recommend the Batman and Detective Comics from the late 80s. Those comics, from Batman #400-500 and Detective Comics from about #560-660, basically between Crisis on Infinite Earths and Kinghtfall, is a particularly strong run, especially the issues drawn by Aparo and Breyfogle. That kind of advice isn't something you'll necessarily get from a Top 10 list on io9 or some similar site.
Wait, did you say Jim Aparo? Are those available in trades?

Originally Posted by kodave
I think after his 17 year old son died of cancer in 2005, it really took a toll on his work going forward. Some might say he's not the same writer he once was before his son's death and that his quality declined. I believe the new Nova is heavily influenced by his son's death. He also drew upon his son's death when writing Fallen Son.
Man...

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