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Make a bold statement about comics

Old 10-27-14, 06:28 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Digital on a decent tablet is a much more convenient way to collect comics... but if it ever truly takes off it will kill the market.

The caveat being "on a decent tablet." I have no idea how some of you can continue to collect floppies and accumulate boxes and boxes of comics. Even switching to tpbs and hardcovers only, which allows for a more organized reading experience, fills up bookshelves eventually. Having it all available digitally is great (the one exception being double paged spreads, of course). You even cut out a substantial cost of printing and shipping physical copies, so there is room for a discount.

However, if it ever takes off it'll kill the industry? Why? It will kill the local comic store. That's why there's not a more substantial discount for digital over physical. Already mailorder places with steep discounts are undercutting comic stores (and apparently Marvel's official response to the high prices of tpbs is to buy at a discount). Now the LCBS might be a place that "normal" people dread entering, but without it, and the (hopefully) helpful staff, how do you find out about other comics that might interest you? How do you get others interested at all without a physical storefront (not that there are many new readers, but certainly stuff like the new 52 brought in some)?

Usually, I only buy stuff in Comixology because I know I'll like it, or because it's on sale and I do some research on it. It doesn't do a great job of letting me know what else I might like. Now I'm weird and go through Diamond Previews on a monthly basis, but otherwise, if you're not doing that or closely following the comic book industry, there's nothing like going to the comic store on release week and seeing what's new and what cover might catch your eye. Comixology has something like that but it's not the same.

But heck, maybe the digital youth already have this figured out. Me, I still mainly know what's coming out on DVD and Blu through the ads in the Sunday newspaper.

The other thing that digital does is encourage waiting. This is like the antithesis of what mainstream comics are: get you hooked on a story on a week to week basis, to the point that by the time you realize that this Superman creative team sucks, well, there's a new creative team on the horizon and you've already bought all 400 previous issues so stick it out with us. Besides, if you miss this month, the issue will be gone and you'll have to wait for the trade. There is no scarcity with digital, so there's not necessarily an urgency to buy, except for those few outstanding series that you just can't wait for. And there's always the possibility of a sale. So if I already have a backlog, and I can buy this anytime I want and maybe even cheaper, maybe I won't buy it until the reviews are in, or until I see how long this new "big shakeup" really lasts (spoiler alert: usually less than 6 months), or whatever.
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Old 10-27-14, 06:39 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by mrhan
The new 52 is the best thing that DC ever did. The new origins are awesome. We should totally forget everything that came before because it was all shit.
You know what, I hate the new 52, and I know you're not serious about this, but:

DC needed the new 52 relaunch to survive. And it worked.

Let me first list the things I hated about the new 52: They threw away decades of history, often throwing away everything we know or recognize about a character except the name and (sometimes) likeness. Example: turning the JSA from an older, legacy based team to a bunch of newbies on a parallel Earth. Because of the emphasis on deaging the main characters, they threw away most if not all of the 2nd generation and younger superheroes, especially if a 3rd generation existed, which mainly means the Teen Titans got screwed over. They are so steeped in editorial edict that it often seems like creators don't really have say in what's going on, and where Marvel really promotes their creators, DC treats them as almost interchangeable. They cancelled several books that were on the upswing with the reboot (Brian Q. Miller on Steph/Batgirl, Teen Titans, Lemire's Superboy, heck even Supergirl was finally getting decent).

But I can't deny that the majority of their titles, especially some of their high profile characters, were flailing. JSA had no direction. The James Robinson Justice League run, plagued by editorial interference, was downright terrible. Superman had been weakened by New Krypton but JMS's run was even worse. JMS "reinvented" Wonder Woman but didn't do much to budge sales. The only things going well were Morrison's Batman and John's Green Lantern and the related titles, which is why they kept them. And apparently there was an edict from on high that things needed to turn around.

I'll be frank, when they switched it gave me the perfect excuse to leave floppies behind, because these weren't the characters I knew and I had no attachment to them. So I gave up on them. But for every disgusted older fan, there were older fans who bought in, and newer fans who jumped on. From a sales standpoint, they've seemed to improve a ton. Now, of course, much like Marvel's Ultimate universe the new 52 universe is becoming pretty convoluted and tough for a new person to jump aboard, but apparently they hooked enough new fish to make it work.
Old 10-27-14, 08:08 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

I largely agree that death of the local comic book shop will have devastating consequences for the industry. The bigger heroes will survive but books with smaller followings will get killed off very quickly. It is why Marvel and DC have treaded very carefully into the digital age. They have the most to lose with the complete loss of local stores, as their secondary heroes would quickly get lost in the shuffle.

As for the New 52, I had no problem with the idea of a DC reboot. I don't think it was a very organic process, rushed by corporate overlords that demanded a boost to flagging sales. I was hoping for more of a send-off than Flashpoint to the old Universe. They've admitted that Flashpoint was not originally intended to be the end, it was just another crossover that got changed when DiDio's job started getting threatened.

A reboot was probably necessary to clean out a lot of the deadwood that had accumulated. I don't think they had a very strong long-term creative vision. Apparently Warner wanted Jim Lee to design "new" outfits for future entertainment products, resulting in a redesigned Justice League intended for movies. Probably the best move was splitting up Clark Kent and Lois Lane.
Old 10-27-14, 08:21 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

The Dark Knight Returns sucks.
Old 10-27-14, 09:02 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Superheroes in space simply doesn't interest me in the least.
Old 10-27-14, 11:19 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fujishig
Digital on a decent tablet is a much more convenient way to collect comics... but if it ever truly takes off it will kill the market.
I strongly agree with this. I like that I can keep hundreds or thousand of comics in something the size of a dime (when they can be downloaded) I no longer have any interest in having dozens of boxes cluttering up my house plus digital is easier to read for me as with regular comics I always want to be so careful and have one place to read them while a tablet I can hold anyway.

Originally Posted by madcougar
Meh. Dated, suck, boring... all the same in my book. I've tried to read some "classics" from the era but find them excruciating.
That would be one of mine. I don't really care for older comics (40-60's etc..) I have often hear about stories be told fast and then you read and find out why. Sometimes things happen to quickly while today it's often too slow.

Not a huge fan of older art styles either, I prefer more modern comic art.

Originally Posted by stingermck

The Marvel style of heroes with problems is boring. I don't care that Peter cant pay the rent. If I want real life, I'll look around.
That's kind of how I am with entertainment. I'm not watching movies, tv, reading comics for people to have the same insane issues for thirty years (our time) maybe at first it was fine yet after enough time it was something that needed to go away.
Old 10-27-14, 11:24 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

The Dark Knight Returns might have been great for it's time, but as someone who read it as a kid in the 90's it wasn't anything special. Still don't think it's particularly great now even understanding some of the themes better; and the art work sucks.

For all the hate that comic book fans seem to have for the 90's and the "extreme" antics from publishers, story arcs like the death of Superman, Batman's broken back, Wolverine's adamantium getting pulled, etc were fun and entertaining.

Aquaman sucks, and talking to fish is a terrible power.
Old 10-27-14, 11:30 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

o no you dit-ten!

Old 10-28-14, 08:37 AM
  #34  
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fumanstan

For all the hate that comic book fans seem to have for the 90's and the "extreme" antics from publishers, story arcs like the death of Superman, Batman's broken back, Wolverine's adamantium getting pulled, etc were fun and entertaining.
Fun and entertaining is one thing. Their quality can be another.

I enjoy those today, the ones mentioned, except for death of Supes. But their quality is pretty rough if you take yourself out of nostalgia.
Old 10-28-14, 10:43 AM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by Ash Ketchum
One of my retirement projects will be to dig out my huge collection of '60s and '70s Marvel Comics and thumb through them to see how well they hold up and decide whether to sell them or not. (My daughter sees them as her legacy but if I need the money after I retire, they're going!)
Out of curiosity, how old are you Ash?
Old 10-28-14, 10:46 AM
  #36  
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by Solid Snake
Fun and entertaining is one thing. Their quality can be another.

I enjoy those today, the ones mentioned, except for death of Supes. But their quality is pretty rough if you take yourself out of nostalgia.
I enjoy them still, and it has nothing to do with nostalgia (having read Knightfall and posted about it here a few years ago). I don't think the quality is rough at all, and fun and entertaining is exactly what I expect to get out of comic book stories.
Old 10-28-14, 10:47 AM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fumanstan
The Dark Knight Returns might have been great for it's time, but as someone who read it as a kid in the 90's it wasn't anything special. Still don't think it's particularly great now even understanding some of the themes better; and the art work sucks.

For all the hate that comic book fans seem to have for the 90's and the "extreme" antics from publishers, story arcs like the death of Superman, Batman's broken back, Wolverine's adamantium getting pulled, etc were fun and entertaining.

Aquaman sucks, and talking to fish is a terrible power.
The Dark Knight is what actually got me into comic books. I had read comic books as a passing hobby as a kid. I'd buy one or two at the convenience store on a long ride for example. But my 16 year-old self found the Dark Knight moving. I loved it then and I love it now - almost 30 years later.

While I can't stand to reread any of the Image stuff from that time, I just reread the Death of Superman and it held up pretty well. The issue where he dies where him and Doomsday are just pounding on each other so hard that windows are breaking is still pretty bad ass.

And while I've never much liked Aquaman, the New 52 revamp has been pretty damn good.
Old 10-28-14, 10:59 AM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Dark Knight defintely holds up for me, perhaps the best story and artwork of the genre IMHO.

Death of Superman will probably hold up for me too, but then again, I grew up a DC fanboy.
Old 10-28-14, 11:48 AM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Hey, they wouldn't be bold statements if everyone agreed with them
Old 10-28-14, 12:44 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fumanstan
Aquaman sucks, and talking to fish is a terrible power.
Not a bold statement. Though mentally raping fish is also a terrible power.

Similar to Kirby, I never really liked Frank Miller's art style, even though I recognize his skill and use of blacks. But heck, it took me a while to appreciate Mignola as well, so what do I know.

Ok, another one, and I'll try my best not to sound like a shill:

The best value in comics today is... Weekly Shonen Jump (american version).

Basically, Viz decided a couple of years ago that they wanted to publish something similar to how they publish things in Japan. Basically, in Japan artists work in cramped studios releasing 20 pages of story and art in black and white on a weekly basis (there are various schedules; some like Attack on Titan are monthly). Weekly Shonen Jump in Japan is a phonebook-sized anthology of these stories, and every week they're ranked against each other in reader polls. Drop down in the polls too low for a few weeks and you run the risk of cancellation. The release schedule plus the threat of cancellation means that oftentimes good artists create stuff that just doesn't last beyond a few months, but sometimes it creates works that are fast paced and always on their toes. WSJ is basically a comics magazine for young boys, and where Dragonball, Yu Yu Hakusho, Naruto, Bleach, etc. are/were serialized.

The American version doesn't quite reach the page count of the Japanese version, and is only available digitally, but for 26 bucks a year (now 20 with discount), you get basically 250 pages of manga, a week after it's released in Japan, week in and week out (except Japanese holidays, so 48 weeks a year). This currently includes Bleach (ending soon), Naruto (ending in a month), One Piece, Toriko, and a bunch of others.

Ok, I sound like a shill. There are flaws: the weekly installments are in one chunk so it's difficult if you want to, say, go back and read all of One Piece in that format. It's digital only. While manga has pretty broad parameters, these all belong to a similar niche (most are fighting manga with one romance/harem). The Viz app, while vastly improved, still hangs at times. You can't download the manga, you have to download it into the app from their servers. They've been running a "rerun" of Death Note in there, I think because they haven't been able to fill the page count, and it'll only get worse without Naruto. You'll enter in medias res and either have to buy the graphic novels to catch up, or catch up on your own. But it almost completely scratches my itch of wanting to read something on a regular basis.
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Old 10-28-14, 01:24 PM
  #41  
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fujishig

Similar to Kirby, I never really liked Frank Miller's art style, even though I recognize his skill and use of blacks. But heck, it took me a while to appreciate Mignola as well, so what do I know.
When Miller first started his art looked like a cross between Neal Adams and Bill Sienkiewicz. I can't remember who started first (Bill or Frank) but their styles looked similar. They both wanted to be Adams when you look at their early work. I remember reading that Adams told Miller he sucked when he was looking to break into comics.
Old 10-28-14, 01:39 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by fujishig
Now the LCBS might be a place that "normal" people dread entering, but without it, and the (hopefully) helpful staff, how do you find out about other comics that might interest you? How do you get others interested at all without a physical storefront (not that there are many new readers, but certainly stuff like the new 52 brought in some)?

. . .

But heck, maybe the digital youth already have this figured out. Me, I still mainly know what's coming out on DVD and Blu through the ads in the Sunday newspaper.
I think your viewpoint is behind the times and you know that. Young people don't get the newspaper or read the newspaper. They don't see the weekly ads that way. And the ones concerned about sales or buying a certain release week one will either see the pre-order date online, or they're probably savvy enough to be on Slickdeals or a site like this where you can get the ad info early, quick and easy.

Sure LCSes can promote upcoming comics to try and get you to put them on a pull list, or make recommendations about what other books you might like. But it's not like that's standard operation for many of them. Many comic book shops are still the old outdated kind where you get ignored by staff or even if the staff doesn't chat you up, they don't make further recommendations. Some places still very antagonistic toward customers, mocking their buying choices to their face. But it's only a matter of time before such stores put themselves out of business.

But have you ever read IGN, CBR, Bleeding Cool, Newsarama, etc? Basically every mainstream site is a shill for the big Marvel and DC press releases. They battle and pay for exclusive rights to drop press releases first. I would guess people 35 and under easily know about these websites and if they were interested in getting news about upcoming comic book releases, they'd easily find it. You don't need an LCS to make you aware of the upcoming Spider-Verse.

Younger people are very well versed in social media, whether it be Facebook, Tumblr, Twitter, Reddit, or even "old fashioned" message boards like this. There's no shortage of places where you can go to get comic news or recommendations from potentially thousands of people online. You don't need a guy behind the counter to tell you that if you like Fraction's Hawkeye, consider picking up Fraction's Sex Criminals or something like that.

So no, if going digital kills the LCS, the industry then won't collapse because the behind-the-counter recommendation and promotion machine died.

Furthermore, and this is really a tangent, but it never ceases to amaze me how lazy consumers are. I'll see posts on various message boards or Reddit or something similar saying "I've read Batman Year One / The Long Halloween / Dark Victory / Killing Joker / The Dark Knight Returns. What are other good Batman stories?" GOOGLE IT. There are dozens of top 25 Batman graphic novel lists. People have asked that same question 1000 times before. The answers are already out there. You don't need a guy behind a counter or even a fresh response by some random person on the internet. Top lists and reading guides have existed for ages if you simply Google it. Maybe it's because of the way I work, but when I want to know more about certain books or characters or authors, I first hit Google and usually Wikipedia and see what other books are out there, then look up reviews on those books. If I made a post saying "What are some good Spider-Man books?" then I clearly haven't done my homework. Even if someone gave me a personal recommendation, I'm then going to research it before quasi-blind buying on their word alone.
Old 10-28-14, 01:46 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by resinrats
The Dark Knight Returns sucks.
I won't go as far as "sucks," but I think it is dated in that it is only revolutionary as a product of its time period and its certainly important for the way it changed and shaped the industry going forward, giving us much of what we have today.

Reading the Dark Knight Returns in the year 20-whatever leaves me thinking "Meh" at best. But I'm sure it was a completely different experience for someone in the year 1980-whatever.



Here's a bold statement: Frank Miller's "Holy Terror" isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be if you can avoid getting swept up in his "right-winger" mindset.
Old 10-28-14, 01:59 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by PhantomStranger
I think the single issue model also reflects the practical reality of how artists work. People do not want to wait nine months while an artist knocks out 12 issues. You also lose feedback from the audience in the creative process. Most writers now aim at 6-12 issues per planned arc. I yearn for the days when a good story could be told in a single issue.
I disagree with that. People wait that long all the time for things like traditional graphic novels. Trade waiters, which are an ever increasing segment of the market, wait that long or longer all the time. DC's delay between single issue to trade is insane. And there's even trade waiters that refuse hardcover and wait for TPB. They wait ages to get into the material.

You do lose "feedback" in terms of seeing sales numbers on what amounts to a chapter by chapter basis. But I think that's terrible for the creative process assuming sales actually change what the writer or artist have planned. But I don't think that's really much of a thing for the most part. Stories are plotted way in advance. Subsequent scripts are in and being drawn well before the first issue hits the printer. By the time a big two book is ready to be cancelled, they've essentially got a trade's worth of material in the can.

So my viewpoint is, if they're going to let a writer and artist get six issues deep no matter what these days, just do it in the graphic novel format. That way the writer doesn't have to write with single issue publication in mind and can format "chapters" in ways that benefit the story they want to tell without arbitrary concerns like hitting 22 pages of material for that section.

I think one reason this will never happen is the existence of "event" books in the big two. There's too much crossover crap outside of the main event title and other things going on that sell too well for the big two to abandon the single issue format.
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Old 10-28-14, 02:00 PM
  #45  
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by kodave
I think your viewpoint is behind the times and you know that. Young people don't get the newspaper or read the newspaper. They don't see the weekly ads that way. And the ones concerned about sales or buying a certain release week one will either see the pre-order date online, or they're probably savvy enough to be on Slickdeals or a site like this where you can get the ad info early, quick and easy.

Sure LCSes can promote upcoming comics to try and get you to put them on a pull list, or make recommendations about what other books you might like. But it's not like that's standard operation for many of them. Many comic book shops are still the old outdated kind where you get ignored by staff or even if the staff doesn't chat you up, they don't make further recommendations. Some places still very antagonistic toward customers, mocking their buying choices to their face. But it's only a matter of time before such stores put themselves out of business.

But have you ever read IGN, CBR, Bleeding Cool, Newsarama, etc? Basically every mainstream site is a shill for the big Marvel and DC press releases. They battle and pay for exclusive rights to drop press releases first. I would guess people 35 and under easily know about these websites and if they were interested in getting news about upcoming comic book releases, they'd easily find it. You don't need an LCS to make you aware of the upcoming Spider-Verse.

Younger people are very well versed in social media, whether it be Facebook, Tumblr, Twitter, Reddit, or even "old fashioned" message boards like this. There's no shortage of places where you can go to get comic news or recommendations from potentially thousands of people online. You don't need a guy behind the counter to tell you that if you like Fraction's Hawkeye, consider picking up Fraction's Sex Criminals or something like that.

So no, if going digital kills the LCS, the industry then won't collapse because the behind-the-counter recommendation and promotion machine died.

Furthermore, and this is really a tangent, but it never ceases to amaze me how lazy consumers are. I'll see posts on various message boards or Reddit or something similar saying "I've read Batman Year One / The Long Halloween / Dark Victory / Killing Joker / The Dark Knight Returns. What are other good Batman stories?" GOOGLE IT. There are dozens of top 25 Batman graphic novel lists. People have asked that same question 1000 times before. The answers are already out there. You don't need a guy behind a counter or even a fresh response by some random person on the internet. Top lists and reading guides have existed for ages if you simply Google it. Maybe it's because of the way I work, but when I want to know more about certain books or characters or authors, I first hit Google and usually Wikipedia and see what other books are out there, then look up reviews on those books. If I made a post saying "What are some good Spider-Man books?" then I clearly haven't done my homework. Even if someone gave me a personal recommendation, I'm then going to research it before quasi-blind buying on their word alone.
I will counter by saying that young people aren't reading comics, and if they can find stuff online easily then they certainly aren't buying them even if they are reading them (I realize this is kind of a blanket statement, but I'd think these are the same kind of people who would feel that physical copies on a monthly basis for 4 bucks a pop are also anachronistic).

I think the comic rack and comic covers can and should be a method of finding something new, especially for the casual buyer.

The problem with looking up comic book stories (and even reading comic news) is that there's a good chance you'll read a spoiler of some kind. At least on recommendation threads, you can get an idea of people's personal opinions, free of spoilers, and hopefully some kind of reasoning.
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Old 10-28-14, 02:05 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by kodave
Furthermore, and this is really a tangent, but it never ceases to amaze me how lazy consumers are. I'll see posts on various message boards or Reddit or something similar saying "I've read Batman Year One / The Long Halloween / Dark Victory / Killing Joker / The Dark Knight Returns. What are other good Batman stories?" GOOGLE IT. There are dozens of top 25 Batman graphic novel lists. People have asked that same question 1000 times before. The answers are already out there. You don't need a guy behind a counter or even a fresh response by some random person on the internet. Top lists and reading guides have existed for ages if you simply Google it. Maybe it's because of the way I work, but when I want to know more about certain books or characters or authors, I first hit Google and usually Wikipedia and see what other books are out there, then look up reviews on those books. If I made a post saying "What are some good Spider-Man books?" then I clearly haven't done my homework. Even if someone gave me a personal recommendation, I'm then going to research it before quasi-blind buying on their word alone.
Old 10-28-14, 02:12 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

As far as I can tell, modern comic book fans discover they exist in their late teens these days. Whereas comics used to be introduced at much younger ages. The movies and cartoons do much a better job these days at introducing superheroes to kids under 13.

The boldest statement I can make about comics is that Alan Moore largely perfected traditional comic book storytelling while still retaining a nod to the genre's original conventions. I don't think we'll ever see anything like Watchmen or The Killing Joke ever again. The worst move DC Comics ever did was piss him off.
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Old 10-28-14, 02:26 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by kodave

Furthermore, and this is really a tangent, but it never ceases to amaze me how lazy consumers are. I'll see posts on various message boards or Reddit or something similar saying "I've read Batman Year One / The Long Halloween / Dark Victory / Killing Joker / The Dark Knight Returns. What are other good Batman stories?" GOOGLE IT. There are dozens of top 25 Batman graphic novel lists. People have asked that same question 1000 times before. The answers are already out there. You don't need a guy behind a counter or even a fresh response by some random person on the internet. Top lists and reading guides have existed for ages if you simply Google it. Maybe it's because of the way I work, but when I want to know more about certain books or characters or authors, I first hit Google and usually Wikipedia and see what other books are out there, then look up reviews on those books. If I made a post saying "What are some good Spider-Man books?" then I clearly haven't done my homework. Even if someone gave me a personal recommendation, I'm then going to research it before quasi-blind buying on their word alone.
Sometimes it's nice to get the opinion of folks you might know a little bit better, even if it's via a forum and message board. Plus, a lot of the major sites will bring up the big and typical story arcs whereas a few posters might mention more obscure ones. It's nice to hear different opinions.

I've asked about Batman stories on here before
Old 10-28-14, 06:35 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

Originally Posted by mrhan
When Miller first started his art looked like a cross between Neal Adams and Bill Sienkiewicz. I can't remember who started first (Bill or Frank) but their styles looked similar. They both wanted to be Adams when you look at their early work. I remember reading that Adams told Miller he sucked when he was looking to break into comics.
As an avid New Mutants fan, I'll admit as a kid I just wasn't into Sienkiewicz either.

Here's a story Jim Shooter tells about Bill breaking into comics because of Neal Adams, his change in style, and him dressing up like Spider-man to get a free trip to Comiccon courtesy of Marvel:
http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/05/bi...pider-man.html
Old 10-28-14, 07:22 PM
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Re: Make a bold statement about comics

I recently read Knightfall etc. for the first time and I enjoyed it.

Death of Superman wasn't all that great. Just a long stream of fistfights and characters I didn't know (I grew up with Bronze Age JLA), but the resolution was good.

Originally Posted by fumanstan
Sometimes it's nice to get the opinion of folks you might know a little bit better, even if it's via a forum and message board. Plus, a lot of the major sites will bring up the big and typical story arcs whereas a few posters might mention more obscure ones. It's nice to hear different opinions.

I've asked about Batman stories on here before
Yeah, I have no problem with people asking for recs here. Now maybe if they were asking the same questions over and over.

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