Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

When Miller first started his art looked like a cross between Neal Adams and Bill Sienkiewicz. I can't remember who started first (Bill or Frank) but their styles looked similar. They both wanted to be Adams when you look at their early work. I remember reading that Adams told Miller he sucked when he was looking to break into comics.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I think your viewpoint is behind the times and you know that. Young people don't get the newspaper or read the newspaper. They don't see the weekly ads that way. And the ones concerned about sales or buying a certain release week one will either see the pre-order date online, or they're probably savvy enough to be on Slickdeals or a site like this where you can get the ad info early, quick and easy.

Sure LCSes can promote upcoming comics to try and get you to put them on a pull list, or make recommendations about what other books you might like. But it's not like that's standard operation for many of them. Many comic book shops are still the old outdated kind where you get ignored by staff or even if the staff doesn't chat you up, they don't make further recommendations. Some places still very antagonistic toward customers, mocking their buying choices to their face. But it's only a matter of time before such stores put themselves out of business.

But have you ever read IGN, CBR, Bleeding Cool, Newsarama, etc? Basically every mainstream site is a shill for the big Marvel and DC press releases. They battle and pay for exclusive rights to drop press releases first. I would guess people 35 and under easily know about these websites and if they were interested in getting news about upcoming comic book releases, they'd easily find it. You don't need an LCS to make you aware of the upcoming Spider-Verse.

Younger people are very well versed in social media, whether it be Facebook, Tumblr, Twitter, Reddit, or even "old fashioned" message boards like this. There's no shortage of places where you can go to get comic news or recommendations from potentially thousands of people online. You don't need a guy behind the counter to tell you that if you like Fraction's Hawkeye, consider picking up Fraction's Sex Criminals or something like that.

So no, if going digital kills the LCS, the industry then won't collapse because the behind-the-counter recommendation and promotion machine died.

Furthermore, and this is really a tangent, but it never ceases to amaze me how lazy consumers are. I'll see posts on various message boards or Reddit or something similar saying "I've read Batman Year One / The Long Halloween / Dark Victory / Killing Joker / The Dark Knight Returns. What are other good Batman stories?" GOOGLE IT. There are dozens of top 25 Batman graphic novel lists. People have asked that same question 1000 times before. The answers are already out there. You don't need a guy behind a counter or even a fresh response by some random person on the internet. Top lists and reading guides have existed for ages if you simply Google it. Maybe it's because of the way I work, but when I want to know more about certain books or characters or authors, I first hit Google and usually Wikipedia and see what other books are out there, then look up reviews on those books. If I made a post saying "What are some good Spider-Man books?" then I clearly haven't done my homework. Even if someone gave me a personal recommendation, I'm then going to research it before quasi-blind buying on their word alone.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I won't go as far as "sucks," but I think it is dated in that it is only revolutionary as a product of its time period and its certainly important for the way it changed and shaped the industry going forward, giving us much of what we have today.

Reading the Dark Knight Returns in the year 20-whatever leaves me thinking "Meh" at best. But I'm sure it was a completely different experience for someone in the year 1980-whatever.



Here's a bold statement: Frank Miller's "Holy Terror" isn't as bad as everyone makes it out to be if you can avoid getting swept up in his "right-winger" mindset.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I disagree with that. People wait that long all the time for things like traditional graphic novels. Trade waiters, which are an ever increasing segment of the market, wait that long or longer all the time. DC's delay between single issue to trade is insane. And there's even trade waiters that refuse hardcover and wait for TPB. They wait ages to get into the material.

You do lose "feedback" in terms of seeing sales numbers on what amounts to a chapter by chapter basis. But I think that's terrible for the creative process assuming sales actually change what the writer or artist have planned. But I don't think that's really much of a thing for the most part. Stories are plotted way in advance. Subsequent scripts are in and being drawn well before the first issue hits the printer. By the time a big two book is ready to be cancelled, they've essentially got a trade's worth of material in the can.

So my viewpoint is, if they're going to let a writer and artist get six issues deep no matter what these days, just do it in the graphic novel format. That way the writer doesn't have to write with single issue publication in mind and can format "chapters" in ways that benefit the story they want to tell without arbitrary concerns like hitting 22 pages of material for that section.

I think one reason this will never happen is the existence of "event" books in the big two. There's too much crossover crap outside of the main event title and other things going on that sell too well for the big two to abandon the single issue format.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I will counter by saying that young people aren't reading comics, and if they can find stuff online easily then they certainly aren't buying them even if they are reading them (I realize this is kind of a blanket statement, but I'd think these are the same kind of people who would feel that physical copies on a monthly basis for 4 bucks a pop are also anachronistic).

I think the comic rack and comic covers can and should be a method of finding something new, especially for the casual buyer.

The problem with looking up comic book stories (and even reading comic news) is that there's a good chance you'll read a spoiler of some kind. At least on recommendation threads, you can get an idea of people's personal opinions, free of spoilers, and hopefully some kind of reasoning.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

:thumbsup: :clap:

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

As far as I can tell, modern comic book fans discover they exist in their late teens these days. Whereas comics used to be introduced at much younger ages. The movies and cartoons do much a better job these days at introducing superheroes to kids under 13.

The boldest statement I can make about comics is that Alan Moore largely perfected traditional comic book storytelling while still retaining a nod to the genre's original conventions. I don't think we'll ever see anything like Watchmen or The Killing Joke ever again. The worst move DC Comics ever did was piss him off.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Sometimes it's nice to get the opinion of folks you might know a little bit better, even if it's via a forum and message board. Plus, a lot of the major sites will bring up the big and typical story arcs whereas a few posters might mention more obscure ones. It's nice to hear different opinions.

I've asked about Batman stories on here before :shrug:

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

As an avid New Mutants fan, I'll admit as a kid I just wasn't into Sienkiewicz either.

Here's a story Jim Shooter tells about Bill breaking into comics because of Neal Adams, his change in style, and him dressing up like Spider-man to get a free trip to Comiccon courtesy of Marvel:
http://www.jimshooter.com/2011/05/bi...pider-man.html

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I recently read Knightfall etc. for the first time and I enjoyed it.

Death of Superman wasn't all that great. Just a long stream of fistfights and characters I didn't know (I grew up with Bronze Age JLA), but the resolution was good.

Yeah, I have no problem with people asking for recs here. Now maybe if they were asking the same questions over and over. :)

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

His style started to change during his New Mutant run. It was really different and I didn`t like it. However when he applied his new style to his later work I really appreciated it.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I'd actually also say that most comic book fans I encounter LOVE talking about stories and making recommendations. I'm surprised it would be an annoyance for kodave.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I think I explained why I find it lazy/annoying pretty clearly (i.e. Google it first) so I'm not sure why it's surprising and won't repeat myself on that front.

And it's one thing to talk about stories and another for someone to lazily ask for basic information you can find from dozens of sources. Lazy rec requests can be a catalyst for talking about stories in greater detail but often that's not the case from my experience. And there is a difference between something like lazily asking for basic Spider-Man or Batman recs versus something more obscure or off the beaten path like Elseworld Batman tales or translated European comics.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Wolverine is the most boring and pointlessly idiotic superhero ever created.

The Wolfman/Perez-era New Teen Titans were only good for about 4 years, which was followed by about 12 years of swill.

The Legion of Super-Heroes >>> X-Men

90s Superboy was the comic book equivalent of The Simpsons's "Poochy", a middle-aged suburban white guy's impression of what a cool teenager was. "LEATHER JACKET! SUNGLASSES! EARRING!! HE'S EXTREME!!!"

The best Marvel Comics run ever was Michelinie/Layton run on IRON MAN in the 1980s.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

It's surprising because I just have the complete opposite experience. I'm only a casual comic book fan, but because of all the super hero movies I get people that ask me about characters and stories somewhat regularly. Just this morning a friend at work asked me about Ultron, and the last thing I would think of is responding with "just Google it!" To me, it's not even close to being lazy and more about discussion and interaction with someone more knowledgeable.

In fact, i'd say nothing is a bigger turn off then to show interest in something and have someone yell at me to research it myself and calling me lazy, regardless of subject. It's funny because personally i'm someone that does Wikipedia just about anything and everything I come across when I'm curious, but wouldn't blame someone who doesn't. If all comic book store owners had the attitude you're describing, it's no surprise its dying :shrug:

Don't get me wrong, there's a time and place for "Let me Google that for you" type of questions with anything, but I think people asking for recommendations is a good thing if we're talking about the comic book industry as a whole. And has certainly helped a casual fan like me on the questions i've had.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I was amazed when I was a kid in the 60s and am still amazed that people like super hero comics. They are ridiculous.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Don't you mean X-TREME! :D It all started with an X.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

1. I don't know about the most. He's obviously overused, especially for a guy who originally wasn't a mutant and wore claws on his gloves, and his haircut is out of control, but I can think of lots of other superheroes more worthy of the distinction, even popular ones.
2. Didn't Perez leave after four years to do Crisis, then WW? I'll have to look, but I think I enjoyed all Perez-drawn years. Grummet was a decent artist, but the plotting did go downhill quickly, especially considering how popular the team was initially.
3. Can't argue with that, as I love the Legion (even the post Zero Hour legion); the Imperial Guard as a Legion substitute made it interesting.
4. Can't argue with that either. I hated the haircut and the glasses. (and hey, Grummet again). But after they completely changed him, he became a decent character. And Young Justice was great.
5. Now that's controversial. A great run, but so many great Marvel runs then and now.

Similar to your Wolverine one, though, is that I never saw anything special about Spider-man. It's not that there haven't been great runs that I've enjoyed, just nothing to make him stand out as more important than any other Marvel hero.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I'm talking about online. When you're online, the whole "Let Me Google That For You" think is very much fair play in my opinion. And I don't think it's limited to comic books. It basically comes down to the point where it's not really about discussion or sharing, but doing someone else's homework for them before they've put any effort into the subject themselves. I'm not a car guy, but I wouldn't go onto an auto forum and ask "What midsized sedan should I buy?" without at least doing research from the many different and major car buying resources out there.

In person is different. I'm not saying a guy behind a counter at a comic shop should say "Google it." It's part of his job to give recommendations and answer questions. Or if you're having a beer with a friend who isn't really into comics and he's like "I hear the new Batman vs. Superman is inspired by The Dark Knight Returns. What are some other good Batman books?," the answer isn't to yell at him and tell him to Google it.

But when you're already typing out a question on an online forum, you could have already typed that question into Google. Have parents and teachers stopped teaching kids to attempt look things up for themselves first BEFORE coming forward with a question? That's how I was raised and educated. You've got to put in some effort yourself first.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Those are fighting words. Pray we never meet in a darkened alley. DC would be willing to trade Green Lantern and Hawkman for Spider-Man. We'll even toss in a Booster Gold.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Alas, I still disagree. Especially if you're asking the question among a small community you're familiar with like this forum here. Oh well :shrug:

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

That reminds me of when DC and Marvel were on good terms back in 1996. Right around the time the DC vs. Marvel mini-series came out, there was talk of DC borrowing a character from Marvel and vice versa for a year. It definitely wouldn't have been any of their A-Listers (like Batman, Wolverine, Spider-Man, Superman). More along the lines of Robin stuck in the Marvel universe for 12 issues and Colossus stuck in the DCU.

It fell through due to how reprints would be handled. There's no way DC would allow Marvel to release a Robin TPB a few years down the road.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I agree with you, especially if it's not just a random forum. This comes down to individual tastes, and the best advice you'll probably get from a search will be either user reviews or a forum discussion anyway. If it's something like "when does Arachnid man #45 come out" then that's easily found via search, but if you're looking for opinions, I don't see a problem with asking and encouraging discussion. Most of the time people bring up great runs that I had long forgotten about, too.

As far as the loaner/crossover character, the problem would be that the company publishing the comic doesn't have any long term stake in the character, so why build them up just for your rival?

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I vaguely remember something like that, I think it was supposed to be Robin going to Marvel and one of the X-Men going to DC.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I have to disagree.

We're all friends here, so as far as I'm concerned asking advice and opinions, even for google-able stuff, is fair game. Opinions aren't like true or false facts that are easily found, and we have a sizable crowd here with a lot of varied interests, knowledge, and experience. And this is a discussion board.

For example, if someone asked about good Batman stories having already read the usual suspects like DKR and KJ I might recommend the Batman and Detective Comics from the late 80s. Those comics, from Batman #400-500 and Detective Comics from about #560-660, basically between Crisis on Infinite Earths and Kinghtfall, is a particularly strong run, especially the issues drawn by Aparo and Breyfogle. That kind of advice isn't something you'll necessarily get from a Top 10 list on io9 or some similar site.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Worst comic book artist: Jim Lee

Worst comic book writer: Jeph Loeb

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Being new to comics i will say google only work so well for looking for recommendations bc all lists include the same old titles and by asking here and reading threads i found a lot of titles id normally skip on.

That said....again new to comics!
I enjoy the n52 alot more than pre 52 dc titles. I didnt grow up with these character so i dont have any bond but n52 was set to bring in new dans and it worked for me.

Im also reading the marvel order and enjoy the marvel books from the early mid 60s ff, avengees, etc a lot more then current marvel release.

I prefer dc villians over marvels and loved villians month and is what got me into comics and reading regularly

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I don't think many would disagree with you.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Im not too familiar with jeph loeb other then long halloween and daredevil yellow/hulk grey (i believe the latter was him) i enjoyed both book so was curios of the dislike of him? Is it his writing style or do you guys hate him for a bad run on a cherished character?

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Jeph Loeb is great with Tim Sale on Long Halloween / Dark Victory / Catwoman When In Rome / Haunted Knight. The Marvel Grey/Blue/Yellow trilogy by them is also good. Superman For All Seasons might be the best Superman book ever. Loeb's Batman/Superman is good. Fallen Son: Death of Captain America is decent. I haven't read the first new Nova arc he wrote, but I believe it got okay reviews.

I think after his 17 year old son died of cancer in 2005, it really took a toll on his work going forward. Some might say he's not the same writer he once was before his son's death and that his quality declined. I believe the new Nova is heavily influenced by his son's death. He also drew upon his son's death when writing Fallen Son. I believe he's also responsible for Red Hulk and everything that unleashed into the Hulk comics, which wasn't well received critically despite being a big seller at the time. I think he's done mostly Marvel work in the last several years and I don't think much of that has been well liked by critics.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Gotcha. Being a horror fan i always giggle at how everyone in that community has to one up each other by watching a more obscure/violent title then the person before him where it becomes a competition. I believe i found a fanbase worse then that with comic books.
Thats one of the first time i asked a question like that and got an actual response and not a typical "everyone knows he sucks thats why"

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Loeb/McGuinness on Superman/Batman and the Red Hulk stuff was basically him just going overboard, and I didn't mind (part of it is that if I like the artist, it makes things a lot more tolerable than if the art is questionable). It's not necessarily high-minded stuff, but I think they work well together in a different way than he writes for Sale.

For some reason I couldn't do the same thing with his Ultimates run with Joe Mad.

But what you're really saying is that Lee is worse than Liefeld, which I cannot support.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I would easily say Lee is a worse artist than Liefeld, because Liefeld isn't an artist.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Erik Larsen's Savage Dragon is the best superhero comic book series ever.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Wait, did you say Jim Aparo? :eek: Are those available in trades?

Man... :sad:

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

That series needs to be released as an omnibus.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

I agree. It's the only comic I've been reading consistently for the last 22 years.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Those stories were good but I can't stand Breyfogle and Aparo's art was in a serious decline. It wasn't the inker's fault, either. If you look at the Outsider art it was just as bad and he inked a few of those. His best work was in the late 60's and 70's on BB, Batman and Detective. I am a huge Aparo fan but at the end it really was bad. :(

His best work was compiled in the Legends of the Dark Knight Jim Aparo Vol. 1 and 2. I thought if Neal Adams never came around Aparo's version of Batman would have been the definitive one...or maybe Marshall Rogers version. All other artists versions pale in comparison.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

:jawdrop: :jawdrop: :jawdrop: Breyfogle is my favorite artist of all time.

Re: Make a bold statement about comics
 

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder but I do own most of his Batman work. They were good stories. :)