fumanstan

Hope I can get a quick reply, but is Batman Venom and Batman Prey any good? both came up in my Amazon Goldbox (along with the new Knightfall volumes 1 - 3) and I was curious if they're worth buying.

Venom sounds interesting since it would lead right into Knightfall (which i'm buying) and I recall the talk about Prey when it was rumored to be the basis for Dark Knight Rises.

kgrogers1979

Both of them are from the Legends of the Dark Knight ongoing series. I know some people really liked that series, but I never particularly cared for it that much. Between Batman, Detective, and Shadow of the Bat I always felt LotDK was the worst of the four.

Prey is the Post-Crisis origin story of Hugo Strange. Its a decent read, but nothing spectacular. Terror was the sequel to it in which Strange teams up with Scarecrow, and that was a better story in my opinion.

Venom is only very loosely connected to Knightfall. Venom is the origin of the Venom drug that Bane would later use, and that is the only connection between the two stories. Venom isn't a bad story, in fact it starts out really great, but the last half or so was just underwhelming. It was a five-part story that should have been done in two issues, three at the most.

Edited to add:

If you are going to buy Knightfall, DC is currently putting out new editions of the trades. The old editions never included the Knightquest chapters, but the new editions will. I also believe that the new edition includes the Vengeance of Bane one-shot that gave the introduction and origin of Bane before Knightfall started. The old edition didn't include the one-shot.

exharrison

Of those two, I only read Venom. Didn't hate it, didn't love it. Could have done without reading it.
These are the reasons I'm double dipping on the trades. I actually didn't hear about the Vengeance of Bane one-shot being included. Sounds awesome. If you have any question about anything on the old editions, I can check.

fumanstan

Yes, that's why I specifically wrote "new Knightfall volumes" in my post.

Sounds like they're not anything special, so I'll skip them both.

Thanks the both of you!

kgrogers1979

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dc-c...ns-111212.html

The solicitation for the new Knightfall edition says it includes Vengeance of Bane.

That thing is a massive 640 pages. The old Knightfall editions broke up the Knightfall part in two volumes, but this new edition is including the entire thing in one volume plus the Vengeance of Bane one-shot.

Knightquest will be the new second volume, and then KnightsEnd will be the third volume just like it was in the old edition.

Mike86

I actually liked Prey a lot. I'm not sure I'd consider it essential but it's a good story and I like Hugo Strange. I haven't read Venom though. Also I was looking at Amazon at the new Knightfall releases, it kinda sucks that DC is releasing volumes one and two in May but that volume three apparently isn't coming until September. I had hoped to get them all and read them before The Dark Knight Rises (haven't read them before but I know the basic plot).

kgrogers1979

I could be wrong but I don't think the new third volume will be any different from the old one, so you could probably just buy the old one if you really don't want to wait.

Knightfall itself was a 21-part story that was divided into two volumes in the old editions. Knightquest was never traded at all. KnightsEnd was the third volume.

In the new editions, both of the Knightfall volumes are combined into one massive volume. The second volume will finally be Knightquest. The third volume will stay the same with KnightsEnd.

exharrison

That is awesome. I'm excited to read that one-shot.

fumanstan

Yeah, I noticed that too as all 3 were in my Gold Box. I went ahead and ordered them all, but it sucks to wait.

madcougar

I would recommend Venom on its own merits outside of the Bane stuff. I very interesting look at not only what drives Bruce Wayne but also his limitations as a non-meta human trying to do all of these incredible things. Prey is OK... but that's it.

davidh777

Knightfall worth a blind buy from my Gold Box picks?

kgrogers1979

Knightfall itself is great. A lot of people don't care for Knightquest because Jean Paul wasn't a likeable character, but that was really kind of the point that DC intentionally made him unlikeable to show that a Punisher-style Batman isn't a good idea. I didn't mind Knightquest, but I did think it went on entirely too long. It was longer than Knightfall actually. KnightsEnd was okay, better than Knightquest but not as good as Knightfall.

davidh777

Thanks, I think I will look to pick that one up

fumanstan

I received the new version of Knightfall today. Boy, it's a lot thicker then I expected.



Compared to the latest version of the A Death in the Family trade.

kgrogers1979

Well, Knightfall was a 19-part story. The new trade also includes Vengeance of Bane, which was a 64 page one-shot. So yeah, I'm not surprised its massive. That's the reason it was broken up into two trades originally.

And just think... Knightquest was even longer, so it will be even more massive.

The Death in the Family new edition also includes A Lonely Place of Dying if I'm not mistaken. They were 4-issue and 5-issue arcs respectively. So yeah, less than half the size of Knightfall.

fumanstan

Yeah, I already know what's included (and you've mentioned Vengeance of Bane 3 times already in this thread). Just pointing out that it still ended up being a lot bigger then I expected in hand.

kgrogers1979

I tend to repeat myself a lot.

I still don't know why you wouldn't expect a 600 page book to be big though.

fumanstan

A Death in the Family is 270 pages but Knightfall is more then 3x thicker.

The Valeyard

Maybe because Vengeance of Bane is included?

kgrogers1979

And if they included the second Vengeance of Bane one-shot it would have been 4x thicker.

stingermck

New Knightfall trade is great. I was also surprised at the size. Would have been even better if it was HC.

madcougar

When I see these huge collections, I sorta regret buying floppies. I would have to dig through about a dozen boxes to gather up every issue in Knightfall if I wanted to reread it.

Pajiba

Couple thoughts.

I really liked LOTDK, because it was stuff that was outside current continuity. That didn't mean it was alternate earths or Elseworld's stories, it mean the stories didn't have to fit in the strict confines of the current continuity and there weren't any tie-ins with Batman, Detective Comics or Shadow of the Bat. That was cool because it gave the writers a lot of freedom to tell stories, mainly about Batman's past.

'Course that eventually changed and LOTDK became just like every other Batman related title and had tie-ins with the other titles, which meant it lost a lot of it's appeal, at least for me and a good deal of it's sales.

I thought Prey was a nice look at Hugo Strange and I really liked Gulacy's art, it had a tinge of Perez/Bolland in it's precision and detail.

Venom was a good story too and contrary to what kgrogers1979 has said the connection to Knightsend isn't loose at all, but very tight. Knightsend and indeed Bane would never have existed if it wasn't for the Venom story and the potential for further development that O'Neill saw in the Bane character. Sounds like nothing but sour grapes on Kgrogers1979 part.

Going slightly off topic it's interesting reading the Knightsend issues and the various Superman titles during the Death of Superman run. The dialogue and characterization of minorities in many of the Superman stories in that run is beyond puketastic, hearkening back to the over-earnestness of the early 1970's dialogue in comics.

kgrogers1979

Just because the Venom storyarc created the Venom drug doesn't mean the connection to that story and Knightfall is very tight at all. That's like saying all the classic villains were invented in the 1940s so 1940s comics still have a very tight connection to today's comic continuity.

I'm not sure what you mean by potential for development O'Neil saw in the Bane character. Bane never appeared in the Venom storyarc at all. Bane's first appearance was in Vengeance of Bane, written by Dixon not O'Neil who wrote Venom. You can very easily read Vengeance of Bane without ever having read Venom because Vengeance provides the backstory for the drug. (Sorry for bringing up Vengeance yet again fumanstan ).

I never said I hated the Venom arc anyway. I even mentioned that it started out very strong, but I felt it dragged on too long and didn't end nearly as well as it began. Not every story needs 5-6 issues to tell, and that arc is a shining example of it.

And complaining about 90s dialogue is hilarious. You just have to read comics in the context of which they were written because times are always changing. Even early 2000s comics are starting to show their age. Mark Millar's Ultimates is a perfect example of that with pop culture references that are completely outdated today.

Strapped4Cash

Yeah, but we couldn't know that all of these would be collected, and there's still a lot of stuff that has yet to be collected in any form.

I really liked Dixon's run on Birds of Prey for example and on that Issues #7–19 and #22–54 have never been collected. Very little of Young Justice was ever collected and those were a lot of fun imo. They put out a TPB of the first Suicide Squad issues, but it didn't sell well enough for them to continue with it. For runs like that and creators like Dixon & Peter A David (who are out of favor with DC) then a lot of stuff might never be collected.

Every time I wish that I had waited to buy, say, Fables only in HC instead of the individual issues, then I see lots of other stuff that I'm just glad that I have, that I wouldn't have if I had waited.