Timber

Trades keep them in Borders/B&N and thus keep them in business.

I honestly think it's time to give up on the LCS and work out something with Amazon. I'd gladly set up a monthly subscription with Amazon, with a subscription discount of course. Sure they're not going to be able to stick Amazon with stock like they do with the LCS but opens their distribution ability up greatly.

Josh-da-man

QFT.

The problem with getting comics back into the neighborhood drug store is that 1) the neighborhood drugstore doesn't exist anymore, and 2) grocery stores don't want to deal with comic books.

There's a lot of nostalgia at play here; it's a different world today than it was in the 50s, 60s, 70s, and 80s. Mass retailers don't want to deal with comic books, and I don't think enough kids today would be interested in reading comic books to keep such a scheme afloat. You know why kids read comic books in the 60s? Because they didn't have X-Boxes, Playstations, the Cartoon Network, and the Disney Channel. Comic books were cheap, disposable entertainment for kids who had little money and fewer entertainment options. The world has moved on.

Never mind that the entire magazine industry is currently in shit-poor shape.

And going back to newsprint isn't going to change anything. I've also heard that newsprint would actually increase printing costs because nobody uses it anymore. And very little of the cover price of a comic book actually goes to printing costs -- saving a few pennies per unit isn't going to decrease the cover price in any meaningful way. That $2.99 comic book was sold to your retailer for about $1.50; the company sold it to the distributor for about $1.25. And out of that $1.25, you have to pay the writer, penciler, inker, colorist, letterer, editor, office overhead, and printer -- and make a profit on top of that. The printing cost is only one small part of the equation.

Josh-da-man

Back issues haven't been a viable revenue stream for a long time.

The problem is that the comic book companies have been in business for decades and have been pumping out hundreds of books a month. It becomes a mathematical problem in that there's no way for a store with limited floor space to keep a collection of back issues. A store with, maybe five hundred feet of floor space can only house so much merchandise and most of the stuff that fills back issue bins turns slowly, so you're wasting a lot of valuable real estate on a low profit generator. So getting a bigger store to keep the ever-growing backstock is not an option.

And eBay probably killed off what little profit back issues had for most stores.

It's also nearly impossible for a small business to cherry pick a good selection of desirable backstock. Most of the stuff in those tattered white longboxes is the stuff that didn't sell in the first place.

Look at two of the biggest franchises, Batman and X-Men. Marvel and DC have flooded the market with so many X-Men and Batman books the past couple of decades that it's basically impossible for a new reader to simply jump in and start collecting. So new readers aren't coming in any meaningful way, and the trend we've seen in the sales indicates that older readers are leaving their once favorite franchises behind. Why should any retailer bother trying to stock back issues of those books when they are spread over so many titles of miniseries, one-shots, and ongoings?

Travis McClain

Oh, I get why it's the standard model. I think making it the standard was a mistake, and my suggestion wasn't to quit publishing collected editions but rather to quit publishing monthlies. Instead of publishing a large story in serial format for 12 months, just publish it as a single volume. If trades are what's selling, then maybe it's time to give up on the monthlies for a lot of titles.

I wouldn't go so far as to give up on LCSs, but I definitely agree about Amazon.

Also, you know what would be an easy thing to do? Put an actual ad for DC Comics inside the DVDs of DC-based movies. A kid asks for Batman: Gotham Knight. When he opens the case, there should be a flier staring him in the face promoting Batman comic books, a subscription ordering form and information encouraging him to find his nearest LCS. How hard is that? And how much exposure would it be? My guesses are "not very" and "quite a lot."

True, but it's worth noting that the proliferation of trade paperback collected editions are what made that the case. When I got into reading, only the best-selling stories were collected. Now, just about everything is, and it's published so soon after the monthlies have told the story that they've created the "wait-for-the-trade" culture that ignores monthlies entirely. If no one is buying new singles, why would they possibly by old singles? The reason we used to have to buy old singles in the first place was to be able to read the story content because there was often no other way to do it.

"Every gambler knows that the secret to survival/is knowin' what to throw away/and knowin' what to keep."

Here is where we see a flaw in the response to the market. My favorite LCS generally priced back issues a quarter over cover price when the next issue was published, unless for some reason that issue became hot in which case the back issue price would rise accordingly. When I've gone in there this year, it seems most of those back issue stickers haven't changed since the month they became back issues.

The store has already sunk its money into the issues. How does it make sense to maintain prices higher than what eBay sellers are asking--and getting? If the equilibrium market price drops, then it should drop. I think too many LCS owners become convinced that they have to get "at least" that quarter over cover to justify having housed it for so long. It seems to me they'd be much better off moving merchandise more quickly. Not only do they then at least get something for it, but they'll keep the back issue boxes rotating more quickly, which is likelier to make those regulars who do browse to feel a more compelling sense of urgency if they see something they like. It may be gone the next time they visit.

True. But I would posit that the wait-for-the-trade culture created by the publishers has a lot to do with this (as already argued), as well as the LCS owners' unwillingness to respond to the market price established via eBay. Which really bugs me because for quite a long time, many LCS owners deferred to Overstreet or Wizard to set the market price of back issues. Why would they not make a stronger effort to stay abreast eBay sale prices, which are not hypothetical, but actual real time market prices?

At this point, I think the better question is what does an LCS do with what they already have? I think there's still the chance to move that stuff, but the owners have to accept they're not going to get the quarter-over-cover that was their pricing scheme 20 years ago.

It wasn't just lack of alternatives that led to comic readership in days of yore. What is overlooked is how reading of any medium is down and it's not just among children. Kids grow up not just without knowing other kids who read stuff, but without even knowing adults who read. Literacy for some exists only so far as what is required of them in school, and whatever they need to participate in Facebook. That's pretty much it. Kids still love comic book stories; they just don't want to have to actually read them.

I found this out a few years ago when I got my nephew some comics for Christmas based on Teen Titans and Justice League Unlimited. He loved the shows, but to this day has refused to even look inside the cover of either comic. If I press him hard enough, he'll admit he just doesn't want to have to read. I can't tell you how foreign that is to me, that someone would actively resist reading that much, even of something they know they like. I don't know what to even do about it. In that case, he was already enabled in his "reading is the devil" mindset by my sister-in-law years before I even met my wife, so I never had a chance to influence him.

Before I wrote off the future entirely, though, a few weeks ago I was at my LCS and there was a guy there browsing with his son. They were pilfering the sale boxes, and the dad told his son to grab anything he wanted. I heard them talk, and the son was telling his dad which issues they did or didn't have, and what he wanted to read because the cover looked good, that kind of thing. The kid must have been about seven or eight. It warmed my little geek heart.

brayzie

I started reading comics because of the 1989 Batman movie and because of Amazing Spider-man #315 that featured Venom.

There was no Batman or Spider-man cartoon. So the only way to explore this fantasy world of those two characters was to buy their comic books. Had their been an animated series for those two at the time, I might not have stuck with the comics as much.

Comic books need to offer something that other mediums don't. Kids can get their Batman and Spider-man fix from the Disney channel or Cartoon Network.

The only mainstream comic type format that I'm actually a little interested in is Shonen Jump and stuff like that. It's roughly the same price or a little higher and it's in black and white but it seems like it's more bang for the buck. TIME, GQ, National Geographic, Archie, Shonen Jump, Simpsons Magazine, these all offer me ALOT more than DC and Marvel.

stingermck

The New 52:

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dcnu...fo-110701.html

MinLShaw makes a lot of good points. I've gotten my GF reading some comics. I used Dark Tower as a gateway since she likes the book. However her 10 year old son, who will watch comic movies and cartoon all day, wont touch the comics. We even picked up a big stack of 10 cent comics at Heroes Con, but there is very little interest. However he will show some interest in my trade collection. With that said, as much as I like floppies, I think I would prefer everything switching to OGN. That way you have have complete stories, and issue numbering is not a problem for either side.

Travis McClain

You know what this whole thing is? It's Star Trek (2009). "No, it's not a reboot; it's a new beginning." What makes what DC is doing different, of course, is that DC is affecting every single character it owns all at once, and their writers and artists have to live with these changes for the foreseeable future. Conversely, Paramount isn't actively producing a single Star Trek TV show or any other official content. By the time next year's movie comes out, it'll have been three years since the "new beginning," with nothing else taking place between films. Comics readers aren't going to have that kind of down time between this "launch" and the next story. They're going to have 30 days. And then another story 30 days after that, ad inifinitum.

I really do wish them well with this, but it seems every official statement I read just makes this seem even more of a half-baked act of confused desperation. Barbara Gordon has never been as popular with readers as Batgirl as she has been as Oracle (particularly since Gail Simone got hold of her). Why tamper with that investment? Because Barbara is the familiar alter ego of Batgirl to the lay public? That might be a satisfactory marketing reason, but it's still a bad storytelling reason.

You know, looking back I think the boldest thing DC may have ever done was when they killed Superman. I'm not talking about the death itself, mind you. I'm talking about those three entire months after "Funeral for a Friend" where not one of the ongoing Superman titles was published. There were a few one-shots (The Legacy of Superman, Supergirl and Team Luthor, I think Superman Gallery came out during that time, too), but not one of the four primary titles published a single issue. Remember, this was at a time when the Superman comics were so tightly organized they had the triangle numbers on each cover to let you know where an issue fit in that entire year's worth of Superman storytelling. That's twelve missing triangle numbers, for all intents and purposes.

It gave us readers a chance to digest what had happened, and to build anticipation for what would come next. And I can say, The Adventures of Superman #500 wasn't at all what I thought it would be. I kept turning each page, expecting a clear reveal of how Superman's return would be explained and it kept not coming. I remember finishing it and thinking, "Wow, three months of nothing and then this ambiguity?!" I can't imagine today's editorial leadership having the guts to put forth that kind of scheme.

Travis McClain

Also, it seems that at least one of my previous criticisms has (finally) been addressed. Earlier in this thread I wrote:

And in the Newsarama piece linked by stingermck, we find:

It makes sense to wait until the new continuity debuts to begin this new promotional strategy, but I'd still love to hear why it's taken them so long to do this at all. Regardless, I'm glad to hear this is finally happening.

brayzie

I think they just want to reestablish Bat-girl. Batgirl is a better trademark, IMO, than Oracle. And the previous Batgirls aren't that popular so they figure getting the original there will somehow enhance the character. I'm fine with it, but not fine that The Killing Joke is still canon.


I thought the first story in #500 was pretty good but the rest was so-so. Then again, looking back I wasn't a big fan of that revamp. The stories were good, but I didn't like Kryptonian technology, the backstory or the scaling back of his supporting cast.

PhantomStranger

I have read just about everything on this reboot, and it is a reboot for all intents and purposes. It is the closest thing we will ever get to Crisis On Infinite Earths: Part 2, but DC Comics does not want to say that publicly for fear of alienating the tradition-minded readers left who make up most of the monthly buyers. Basically any character that was not meeting sales expectations is getting rebooted, including Superman.

As for the switch back to Batgirl, Warner Bros. just can't sell Oracle-branded merchandise like it can for the real Barbara Gordon version of Batgirl. This reboot is as much about appealing to female readers as anything, notice the supposed edict now at DC about scanty female costumes and the "no skirts" rule. That is a clear move to try and move comic books into the norms of mainstream entertainment and out of the adolescent male fantasy world it has been in since inception.

It is a bold gamble, because it is very possible that comic books just can't compete in a modern information environment where the nature of entertainment has fundamentally changed. DC may lose the few readers it has left, for some mythical future replacement reader that does not exist.

Timber

Strange that I agree with most of what you said but I'm firmly in the "not a reboot camp"

They want it to be a reboot for the general public but they want it to be anything but a reboot to the people that are currently buying their books.

These "future readers" do not exist in my opinion. There are very few kids begging their parents to take them to comic book stores. When I make a trip to Borders/B&N I'm always the only person looking at the trades, there may be some younger kids looking at the manga stuff but even that is rare.

Hell I don't even think digital is going to save them or even prolong there demise.

Eric F

Does anyone actually want these? As a life-long DC fan who's pretty much collecting only TPBs at this point, I have lost total interest in anything cutting edge.

I do hope this doesn't prevent DC from releasing compendiums and TPBs of recent storylines such as Darkest Night, etc.

PhantomStranger

It is a reboot in my opinion because the entire DC universe pivots around Superman, who is once again going to be the first superhero. That is a huge change to the post-Crisis history that had been built up over the last three decades. DC is trying to snuff out the remnants of Earth 2 in the new universe, eliminating the JSA as we knew them.

boredsilly

Lets see. Looking at the full list of books, I would say I'm at least interested in half of the titles. Maybe a little less than half, for various reasons. I'm only super-interested in maybe 10 books, but then I've never really read more than that at any given time from any given publisher, so that's about right for me.

stingermck

DCBS has a special this month where you can order all 52 books for $80 or half off. Thinking why not, I added the whole thing to my cart.

Patman

Extrapolate that to a year, $960/year to keep up with the DCNu with DCBS! (I know not all those titles will flourish, but DC will roll out other titles to make up the 80 or se titles they were publishing before the second or third coming of the DC Universe.

Timber

I don't want anything close to all 52 of the books but that's a great deal for those that do or want a good portion of them.

Xander

I'm kinda interested. I've always found it kind of daunting to keep up with all the books and characters, and usually cherry-pick (via trade paperbacks) the stories I want. I'm actually thinking about picking up a few of these new books (probably GL, Batman, Superman and JLA) monthly and see how they are.

kgrogers1979

The cover to Batgirl #2 has been revealed, and she looks like she is getting de-aged to a teenager.

http://www.comicvine.com/news/adam-h...-cover/143299/

stingermck

Im going to chalk that up to Adam Hughes style until I read otherwise.

Josh-da-man

She looks like Amy Pond.

Eric F

If they are reviewed well and there are good stories I will definitely pick up a TPB or two sometime down the line. I know there are a lot of people like me who've pretty much given up on single-issue collecting.
After a while I decided I just couldn't afford it, keep up, and got pissed there were so many crossovers.

boredsilly

That's is some serious fantasy fuel right there.

Preterite

stingermck

I went back to my DCBS order, and went through each DC title to see which one I was actually interested in. 39, which was mostly titles i'm reading before the relaunch anyway. So I applaud DCBS for having the all you can eat option, but i'd rather save some money and see which titles are still standing 6 months later.