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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
DC Harras, Berganza: DCnU Will Keep Much of History In Tact
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/dcnu...ct-110615.html - DC confirmed that stories like Blackest Night, Brightest Day, Identity Crisis, Death in the Family, and Killing Joke are still part of the DCU history. In fact, editors said, some events in those stories are specifically referenced in September. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
So now instead of "All New, All Different" I'm more convinced then ever that they're recycling Zero Hour.
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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by stingermck
(Post 10817696)
DC Harras, Berganza: DCnU Will Keep Much of History In Tact
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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by boredsilly
(Post 10817686)
And for all of the grumpiness you see on online forums, you're the reason why DC is doing this. The potential audience of comics readers (be they totally new readers or lapsed comic fans) is worth risking losing the current audience they do have. Flashpoint 1 only sold 90k issues.
I read the newsarama link and I really doubt that people outside of regular comic readers know of Death in the Family and The Killing Joke. The only way they'd know about Jason Todd's death is from the Red Hood animated movie. I think DC knows that it's incredibly risky to believe that there's a new audience that could replace the older audience. So that's why this isn't a true reboot. All the lesser selling titles will have their continuity rebooted, but that happens all the time anyways. The digital format is the only serious thing I see about this new event. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by MinLShaw
(Post 10817695)
Marvel is far more confident and forward-thinking when it comes to movies. For God's sake, Daredevil got a movie before Green Lantern! Marvel's philosophy seems to be, "We've made a business out of these characters and their stories and we believe they'll all be a hit as movies." DC's philosophy seems to be, "Movies? Um, yeah, let me look around and see what we've got that might work..." It's pathetic, and what was once a healthy rivalry is now a lopsided joke. Take away Bruce Timm and Batman and I don't think anyone gives a damn about DC outside of longtime readers, and this apparently extends to DC itself!
Originally Posted by MinLShaw
(Post 10817677)
What I find most curious about the "Barbara Gordon is the public's Batgirl" argument is that after years of John Stewart being "the public's" Green Lantern on Justice League, they went with Hal Jordan for this year's Green Lantern movie. I suspect Batgirl (regardless of alter ego) is more familiar to many than GL (regardless of alter ego). The move to Hal could be taken as particularly bothersome, because it suggests 1) John was chosen exclusively to be a token gesture of racial diversity on the TV show and 2) Hollywood still doesn't believe it can sell a movie without a white guy in the lead.
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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by PhantomStranger
(Post 10818213)
Look at the comic book sales charts, Hal Jordan's return as the Green Lantern in the past few years has the GL family of books at or near the top of the DC sale charts.
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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by MinLShaw
(Post 10817677)
What I find most curious about the "Barbara Gordon is the public's Batgirl" argument is that after years of John Stewart being "the public's" Green Lantern on Justice League, they went with Hal Jordan for this year's Green Lantern movie. I suspect Batgirl (regardless of alter ego) is more familiar to many than GL (regardless of alter ego). The move to Hal could be taken as particularly bothersome, because it suggests 1) John was chosen exclusively to be a token gesture of racial diversity on the TV show and 2) Hollywood still doesn't believe it can sell a movie without a white guy in the lead.
Now, I say all this as a Hal Jordan fan (though, personally, I dig Kyle Rayner a shade more). But I couldn't help thinking about all this ever since I first heard about production of this movie, only at the time I was laughing about how insecure DC/Warner have been about whether or not "the public" knows who the hell Nightwing is. Personally, I think they need to be more responsible about these kinds of identity issues in the first place, but when they do make these kinds of changes they need to have the conviction to stand by them. Someone at DC needs to be willing to say, "This is what we've done and this needs to be reflected on screen." I grant, you, of course, that there's more flexibility with Green Lantern, as we've had several over the years and I honestly do think that Hal was the right choice for the movie. Once Ryan Reynolds prices himself out of the franchise (which, as a longtime GL fan, I hope this becomes), I'd like to see John Stewart on the big screen, though. One other remark: I read one of the recent interviews someone posted and it really came across that DC's editorial leadership is really proud of this massive undertaking, primarily because it's massive. It affects lots of things and it involves the publication of a ton of comic books. This obsession with large-scale stories, in my personal view honed over a life of reading comics, is precisely the very problem with comic book storytelling and until someone takes the reins who doesn't subscribe to the "bigger is better" doctrine, and until publishers re-embrace the mass market, they can continue to watch their sales figures decline. This may provide a brief bump, but outside of dedicated fans who already flock to the Internet and their LCS's (or order their comics online), who the hell even knows about all this? Err... Johns brought Jordan back and back into prominence before the movie went into pre-production. It's one of their two top franchises now, which I know means little to a non-comic-reading audience, but that's what the movies are based on. Stewart was undoubtedly chosen to give some diversity to the Justice League cartoon (as Cyborg is to Johns/Lee's JLA). However, people forget that to that point, he really had very little characterization outside of being arrogant, black, and having made a huge mistake out of arrogance in Cosmic Odyssey. The Justice League cartoon fleshed his character out and arguably did a better job than years of comic books. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by fujishig
(Post 10818374)
It's one of their two top franchises now, which I know means little to a non-comic-reading audience, but that's what the movies are based on.
Sales for the May 2011 issue of Green Lantern: 75,371. There's two other GL comics in the top 20 that month. As the viewing figures for the JLU premiere are higher than average, let's be generous and assume that sales for the three comics are all to separate buyers and lump those in, too. That gives us around 189,000 - still only 10% of the cartoon's viewers under the age of 14. If the general public was aware of a Green Lantern before the movie, it was John Stewart. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by Preterite
(Post 10818395)
Ratings for the 2005 premiere of JLU: 4.2 and delivery of 1,029,000 among kids 6-11. Among tweens 9-14, ratings of 3.3 and delivery of 800,000.
Sales for the May 2011 issue of Green Lantern: 75,371. There's two other GL comics in the top 20 that month. As the viewing figures for the JLU premiere are higher than average, let's be generous and assume that sales for the three comics are all to separate buyers and lump those in, too. That gives us around 189,000 - still only 10% of the cartoon's viewers under the age of 14. If the general public was aware of a Green Lantern before the movie, it was John Stewart. Plus, many people don't watch the current cartoons, but did watch the multiple versions in the 70s, 80s and 90s where we mainly had the other version. For them the movie might be confusing without Jordan. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by Navinabob
(Post 10818491)
Too simplified; there are way too many cross-overs. You neglect to consider that many cartoon watchers are also comic book readers
The rest of your points are basically appeals to old comic fans' nostalgia, which is precisely the problem that myself and other commentators have. Superhero comic readers are a small market that is rapidly shrinking. It doesn't make a lot of fiscal sense to play to them and ignore the wider potential audience brought in by the cartoon and other media. Plus, many people don't watch the current cartoons, but did watch the multiple versions in the 70s, 80s and 90s where we mainly had the other version. For them the movie might be confusing without Jordan. I think the Onion nails it: http://www.theonion.com/video/green-...ove-say,20741/ |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by Preterite
(Post 10818636)
Um, what now? A handful of Superfriends appearances in which no mention of the Hal Jordan identity is made? That's a better nail to hang a gajillion dollar franchise on? Seriously?
The overwhelming majority of moviegoers will know little-to-nothing about Green Lantern going in. There is definitely a part of me that suspects that if they had made this a John Stewart movie, (1) it wouldn't be a summer tentpole and (2) a lot of people would wonder "why'd they make him black?" I'm not trying to start something, I absolutely don't have that mindset myself, and I'm sure I'm going to regret writing that. ...but it's true. The Onion spoof is pretty dead-on. I mean, I'm a nerd, I'm fairly well-steeped in GL lore, I have stacks of GL comics even though it's not a book I've ever read regularly, I sought out the two direct-to-video GL animated movies from the past couple of years, and yet I care so little that I haven't even bothered to watch the live-action trailer, even when it's right in front of me and all I have to do is click. It's just an "...eh, I know I'm gonna watch it on Blu-ray, so who cares?" movie for me. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by Preterite
(Post 10818395)
If the general public was aware of a Green Lantern before the movie, it was John Stewart.
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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by Preterite
(Post 10818636)
The cartoon viewing figures I quoted are only for the under-14 crowd. I'm pretty sure comic buyers skew much older than that, so if we want to consider comic readers crossing over into cartoon watchers, the cartoon viewing figures actually go up.
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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by PhantomStranger
(Post 10819044)
You can't even accurately depict Stewart's origin without using Jordan as a frame of reference.
Originally Posted by Navinabob
(Post 10819098)
Even playing by your own rules (under 14), you are still wrong. Jordan was GL in Duck Dodgers (2003), The Batman (2007), Batman: Brave & Bold (2009), Young Justice (2011) and the still unreleased new GL series.
Look, I'm not saying Hal is a completely unknown property, just that John is far better known by a larger segment of the general population.
Originally Posted by Adam Tyner
(Post 10818711)
...although compared to the number of tickets Warner is gonna have to sell to come close to breaking even, the number of people who think of John Stewart as Green Lantern is pretty insignificant too.
There is definitely a part of me that suspects that if they had made this a John Stewart movie, (1) it wouldn't be a summer tentpole and (2) a lot of people would wonder "why'd they make him black?" I'm not trying to start something, I absolutely don't have that mindset myself, and I'm sure I'm going to regret writing that. ...but it's true. The other factor here is the deeply (small c) conservative nature of comics fans, who are apparently adverse to any change in the status quo of the year they started reading comics. Which kinda brings us back on topic. The Onion spoof is pretty dead-on. I mean, I'm a nerd, I'm fairly well-steeped in GL lore, I have stacks of GL comics even though it's not a book I've ever read regularly, I sought out the two direct-to-video GL animated movies from the past couple of years, and yet I care so little that I haven't even bothered to watch the live-action trailer, even when it's right in front of me and all I have to do is click. It's just an "...eh, I know I'm gonna watch it on Blu-ray, so who cares?" movie for me. Still, I wish the film all success. My cousin is a huge Jordan fan and he's trying really hard not to get his hopes too high, but he's much more excited then he was when the first details of the production started trickling out. And a hit DC franchise brings is that much closer to seeing my dream of a Brother Power movie materialize. :) *Don't get me started on the whole "textured costumes" thing. Adam West, Tom Tyler, and Christopher Reeves didn't need them so I don't know why they're being forced upon us now. On the other hand, I think most recent sneaker designs are hideous, so I'm obviously out of step with the times. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
I see what you are saying. I suppose it all matters what the live action movie's target audience is. For a 14 year old today to have watched JL (remember, it had a 9PM time slot) they'd have to have been 4 when they started and 10 when it ended. If the target audience is 15-24 of people who watched only the cartoons, and none of the DC cartoons that came after it, then maybe Stewart might be better.
Honestly, for most of the people seeing the movie, the only Green Lantern that they know will be the movie they are watching. And I just read that it is getting a 28% rating at Rotten Tomatoes. Looks like it'll be a bomb. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Whoops! Been absent a day or so and failed to respond to any of this.
My point--as I think has been fairly well articulated by Preterite--is that the Green Lantern movie is a microcosm of the lack of vision and forward-looking direction that has plagued the industry at large and DC in particular. I think it's terrific that GL is one of their hottest properties in comics these days; I've been a fan of the Lanterns for about 20 years now. I know Geoff Johns is unto a god among current readers, and I don't doubt his enthusiasm, but I wouldn't even know where to begin penetrating the current GL-verse. I saw an ad recently for an entire slew of trade paperback collections, nearly all of which were written by him, and I'm doing the math in my head and realizing we're talking about almost $200 just to get those collected editions. I imagined the average person seeing that ad, asking: "Do I start with the most recent and hope it makes sense? Do I start with the earliest and essentially commit myself to spending that kind of money in installments?" And then what happens in September, when they see Green Lantern #1 on the shelves? Does it confuse them, particularly if they're not already caught up by then? I can't deny that the "epic" scale GL stories appear to have been among the most successful things DC has done in the last decade. I'm probably more surprised that there are multiple GL comics in print right now than I am by the fact there's a movie opening tomorrow, and I know that's a testament to the popularity of the massive scale stories for which Johns has been responsible. But I can't help feeling that the insular nature of what DC and Johns have done won't make it discouraging for anyone who does become curious enough try to explore the comics. I think back to 1989, when I bought Detective Comics #603. It was my first Batman comic, and I took the plunge because of the movie. It was the third of a three-part story, and I knew this because it said so on the cover. I read it anyway, thinking I could easily enough get the first two parts later (which, strangely, I have yet to do). I was still able to follow that specific issue, and I had a good couple of years where I could move from Batman to Detective Comics, Legends of the Dark Knight and later Shadow of the Bat and if I missed an issue for some reason it wasn't a big deal. Stories even then weren't always self-contained, but they also weren't key parts of a universe-changing epic. DC can't offer anything like that to today's new readers because their structure is wholly different. Maybe today's readers don't mind coming into something that large in progress; I don't know. I just know that I personally find it off-putting, and I suspect I'm not alone in this. DC's editorial leadership is content to be a big fish in a very small pond, and they don't need to settle for that. They could do what generations of writers did, and that's tell interesting and entertaining stories that added to the mythology naturally, rather than as an endless parade of events. Accessibility is paramount for all forms of storytelling, and I just am not convinced that DC understands this in a way that accounts for the people they need most to reach: the people currently not buying their product. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
As far as GL goes, I think they did modify the Origins arc of Johns' GL tpb with a movie-like cover, to act as a starting point. But yeah, I have no idea how something like Rebirth reads to the non-comic book fan.
Lobdell (writer of the new Teen Titans, Superboy, and... one other book) did an interview where he clears up some things (and says that he had to convince Booth to put those horrid wings on Red Robin): http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/...bleeding-cool/ Tim Drake is a perfect example. Yes, he figured out Bruce’s secret identity and yes he became Robin and yes things happened in his past that prompted him to move on from that role and become Red Robin. How long ago was that? What brought him from there to issue one of Teen Titans? I’d like to leave it vague enough that long time fans can take comfort in knowing a lot of the stories they loved still happened…and a lot of new readers (or fans who haven’t read the book in five or ten or twenty years) can sit down with issue one and feel they haven’t missed out on several decades of continuity with these characters and this world. Similarly, Superboy comes to Teen Titans and his own series with a lot of his D.C.history in place. He still showed up shortly after the Death of Superman, he is still the clone of Superman and Lex Luthor. How we reconcile his past with the opening issues of Teen Titans and Superboy? That, I’m afraid, has to remain vague for now (it is bad enough if someone in the audience shouts out the ending of the movie — imagine how much more depressing it would be if the writer shouted out the end of the movie four months before the movie was released!).[ Are there changes and trims and tweaks — in some cases total re-imagining of characters? Yes. But, you’ll find, even with those characters, 95% per cent of them are totally recognizable. (Bart isn’t a serial killer sentenced to the present from the 30th Century. Cassie is still the daughter of archeologist Helena Sandsmark.) |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Jesus. At this point they shouldve just gave everyone a #1 for sales, kept the stories as is, and made it easy without all the did or didnt happen shit.
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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by stingermck
(Post 10826153)
Jesus. At this point they shouldve just gave everyone a #1 for sales, kept the stories as is, and made it easy without all the did or didnt happen shit.
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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
I will reserve judgement until I read a few of these, but on paper, I don't see the point.
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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
More from bleedingcool from a talk with DC and retailers in Dallas:
http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/06/...-black-people/ Many of the new 52 books will have six issue story arcs, and Dan DiDio states that if sales are bad on a title, they won’t wait very long to cancel it. He wants strong sales across the line. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Many of the new 52 books will have six issue story arcs, and Dan DiDio states that if sales are bad on a title, they won’t wait very long to cancel it. He wants strong sales across the line. |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
Originally Posted by fujishig
(Post 10826103)
Tim Drake is a perfect example. Yes, he figured out Bruce’s secret identity and yes he became Robin and yes things happened in his past that prompted him to move on from that role and become Red Robin. How long ago was that? What brought him from there to issue one of Teen Titans? I’d like to leave it vague enough that long time fans can take comfort in knowing a lot of the stories they loved still happened…and a lot of new readers (or fans who haven’t read the book in five or ten or twenty years) can sit down with issue one and feel they haven’t missed out on several decades of continuity with these characters and this world. Similarly, Superboy comes to Teen Titans and his own series with a lot of his D.C.history in place. He still showed up shortly after the Death of Superman, he is still the clone of Superman and Lex Luthor. How we reconcile his past with the opening issues of Teen Titans and Superboy? That, I’m afraid, has to remain vague for now (it is bad enough if someone in the audience shouts out the ending of the movie — imagine how much more depressing it would be if the writer shouted out the end of the movie four months before the movie was released!).[ Are there changes and trims and tweaks — in some cases total re-imagining of characters? Yes. But, you’ll find, even with those characters, 95% per cent of them are totally recognizable. (Bart isn’t a serial killer sentenced to the present from the 30th Century. Cassie is still the daughter of archeologist Helena Sandsmark.) So even Death of Superman is still in continuity, apparently. This seems to be more confusing than ever... :) |
Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
This is looking more and more like the Great DC Implosion: Part 2. DC is obviously hedging their bets on the continuity for most characters, in case sales fall off a cliff.
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Re: DC UNIVERSE Reboots in September, Same Day Digital Linewide
I'm not as bent up on the continuity, or lack thereof, but I think these stories being the standing six issues is a mistake. We all know comics, but I wonder if the new people DC is trying to attract will find a $3 to $4 dollar digital monthly comic a satisfying purchase? I love comics, and even I don't think the monthly book is satisfying at full price.
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