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How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

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How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Old 02-17-11, 03:49 PM
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How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Seeing as Bats stupidly believes that Joker can be rehabiliated, he keeps getting locked up and escaping and killing more people. Given that it is Bats fault, how many deaths at the hands of the Joker can be tied indirectly to Bats?

As a bonus, how many people has Joker killed overall? Alternate world and Elseworlds shit counts.
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Old 02-17-11, 06:09 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

I just watched Under the Red Hood Blu-ray last night where they bring up that point again. Good flick btw, I really liked it.
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Old 02-17-11, 07:06 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Originally Posted by Dick Van Dork View Post
Given that it is Bats fault
That's not a given. And if we decide it's Batman's fault for not murdering a man in cold blood when he has had the chance, the same can be said for every cop, prison guard, and fellow inmate the Joker has come into contact with. And every other superhero he has battled as well. Stupid argument is stupid, as the kids say.
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Old 02-18-11, 01:52 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Originally Posted by Preterite View Post
That's not a given. And if we decide it's Batman's fault for not murdering a man in cold blood when he has had the chance, the same can be said for every cop, prison guard, and fellow inmate the Joker has come into contact with. And every other superhero he has battled as well. Stupid argument is stupid, as the kids say.
It is not a stupid argument, but a brilliant one. Despite all evidence to the contrary, including the opinions of the worlds greatest shrinks, Bats continues to insist that the Joker can be rehabilitated and thus cannot be killed. Thus when Joker escapes and goes on a killing spree it is bats who stands to take most of the responsibility for the dead.

QED.
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Old 02-18-11, 02:18 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Originally Posted by Dick Van Dork View Post
It is not a stupid argument, but a brilliant one. Despite all evidence to the contrary, including the opinions of the worlds greatest shrinks, Bats continues to insist that the Joker can be rehabilitated and thus cannot be killed. Thus when Joker escapes and goes on a killing spree it is bats who stands to take most of the responsibility for the dead.

QED.
Batman does NOT believe he can be rehabilitated. Every comic where he appears to have been reformed Bats watches him like a hawk because he does NOT trust him. He's stated that the reason he does not kill him is because he's afraid of turning that corner. He's afraid of losing his humanity... don't forget, Batman also hunts down vigilantes who kill bad guys with the same intensity as if they were murderers.

He said that he dreams of killing him and it takes every inch of his willpower to not land that final blow. If Joker gets Bats to kill him Joker gets the last-laugh and actually taunts him to do it.
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Old 02-18-11, 11:37 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Maybe Batman should do like the movie & just not save Joker if Joker is about to die. There's been cartoons where Batman saves Joker, who is being targeted for death. If Bats is too much of a wuss to not kill, just let him die.
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Old 02-19-11, 05:28 AM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Batman tried to rehabilitate the Joker in the 1950s. Under the permission of Commissioner Gordon, Batman took the Joker out of Arkham Asylum to a world renowned doctor for some kind of experimental brain surgery to cure him of his insanity. The Joker's gang abducted him back before the surgery could be done.

Batman later mentions it again in the beginning of the Killing Joke.

It was later revealed that the surgery actually did take place but that the result of it only made the Joker worse which would explain how he went from a clown themed villain, to the mass murderer of today.
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Old 02-19-11, 07:19 AM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

It's a great debate. I fall more on the side of "the world is a much safer place without the Joker."
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Old 02-20-11, 04:50 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

It gets harder and harder to believe that Batman wouldn't take some kind of extreme measure against the Joker.

I really like how Frank Miller handled it in his last Batman story.
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Old 02-20-11, 05:48 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

If it were real life, the Joker would have been sentenced to death, "shot while trying to escape", or gunned down by an aggrieved party long, long ago. However, we are not talking about real life. The Joker is an immensely popular character in serialized fiction owned by a huge multinational corporation. The character has enormous IP value, and it is in the vested interest of the corporation to maintain the status quo in their fictional setting. Thus, the Joker is never going to get killed, he is always going to come back, and there is nothing the other characters in that fictional world can do about it.

That's why it's really silly to try to frame a moral judgment on Batman in this context. In real life, he would never have to take extreme measures to deal with the Joker once and for all, because society would have taken care of that for him. And again, if you are going to hold Batman accountable for the Joker's actions, you have to hold the entire Gotham Police Department, every staff member of Arkham Asylum, and every other superhero in the DC Universe to the same standards. More accurately, we should hold accountable the fans, creators, and Warner Bros. shareholders, because they are the ones ensuing the Joker comes back time and again.

Or to quote the Man of Steel: “These ‘no-nonsense’ solutions of yours just don’t hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel.”
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Old 02-20-11, 06:43 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Originally Posted by Preterite View Post
Thus, the Joker is never going to get killed, he is always going to come back, and there is nothing the other characters in that fictional world can do about it.
That's kind of the problem. We, as long time readers know that nothing is permanent in BATMAN, or any other long running DC title. And yet, DC tries to make their comics more sophisticated, and more serious to keep the interest of their older, jaded readership.

I enjoy superhero comics, but I can't enjoy a world of "jet powered apes and time travel" when characters are getting raped, decapitated, dismembered and eaten alive the very next page. Maybe in Heavy Metal that works, but when you have a character like Batman with his no-killing policy, it starts to make very little sense.
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Old 02-21-11, 12:58 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Technically they might kill the Joker off... but just expect either a resurrection or someone else taking up the mantel so the trade-mark & license still operates.
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Old 02-21-11, 01:00 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

I don't see a reason why Batman alone would be held accountable for letting the Joker live. It's kind of like the boat situation in the Dark Knight. Any law enforcement could easily shoot and kill the Joker in the bajillion times he's been thrown in Arkham.
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Old 02-22-11, 02:22 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Originally Posted by brayzie View Post
And yet, DC tries to make their comics more sophisticated, and more serious to keep the interest of their older, jaded readership.
I hear ya. I've always considered myself a DC guy, but I find I buy much more Marvel titles these days. While DC is exterminating the "funny" Justice League in the most disturbing ways imaginable, Marvel still has room in its publishing schedule for the Pet Avengers. The frigging Pet Avengers! Yeah, there's Civil War of Dark Kings crossover crap always going on, same as DC, but they still put out good light-hearted stuff as well as the grimdark. DC's attempts to be all "Comics R Seriuz Bizness" comes across as even more immature in comparison.
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Old 02-22-11, 07:00 PM
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Re: How many deaths is Batman indirectly responsible for? Joker related.

Well DC puts out some lighthearted stuff too, like Billy Batson and the Magic of Shazam, and Batman: Brave and the Bold, but they don't seem to have the same quality the Marvel stuff does.

Marvel on the other hand puts out really quality, IMO, all ages material. All the Power Pack series's have had exceptional artwork and stories, Spider-man Loves Mary Jane was also well done, and there Marvel Adventures stuff is also enjoyable quite often.
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