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-   -   June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition) (https://forum.dvdtalk.com/comic-book-talk/574814-june-july-august-general-comic-discussion-summer-break-convention-season-edition.html)

fujishig 06-06-10 10:34 AM

June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition)
 
Figured I'd start this quarter's discussion, though we seem to be dropping in posts even for the consolidated quarterly discussions... the state of the comic book industry as a whole?

I collect things mainly in trade paperback. There's another thread asking about the death of single issue comics, and we've debated on this board how the collectors who avoid the single issues and wait for the collection may or may not be killing comics.

I do collect a handful of titles month to month, mostly DC, mainly because I love the DC universe and they don't always collect everything into trades like Marvel does. As I've been catching up on my backlog of trades, I've been trying to increase my monthly comics load. I have to say, I'm discouraged.

One of the great things about waiting for the trade is that you can get feedback from fans, reviewers, etc. about the storylines, artwork, and overall quality of the comic. You can't really do that month to month, especially in my situation where I preorder stuff months in advance. And most of this stuff is not collected because there's no reason for it to be collected. Absolutely no reason. Creative teams and directions are changed after a few issues, artwork is inconsistent, books are late, crossovers kill the few books that have momentum going, etc.

Take Teen Titans, for instance. This incarnation of the book started off with the rather dubious distinction of destroying PAD's Young Justice, but that was so Johns could have the premiere teen heroes in it. After 52, the team was devastated, the roster was bare, and there was no clear direction. Most recently, the team went to Dakota to fight Holocaust. Now I'm a big Milestone fan, and I have no idea how Holocaust got powerful enough to completely destroy this team, even with the additions of Cyborg, Superboy, and Kid Flash. At one point, it looks like Holocaust has killed everyone but Superboy and Kid Flash, and this is the dialogue:

Superboy: You--you murdered the people I love.
(skip battle scene where they subdue Holocaust, despite not being able to do so earlier)
Superboy (to Kid Flash): Nice with the fist of fury. How many was that? 72?
Kid Flash: 74
Superboy: Our friends...
Kid Flash: We have to find each of them. Take their bodies home. Give them the proper respect.
Superboy (fist bumping Kid Flash): Teen Titans...
Kid Flash: ...forever.

This "emotional moment" is followed by them being miraculously saved by Beast Boy somehow gaining the power to not only mimic Raven, but her powers. And after they finally defeat Holocaust, the issue ends in the middle of a scene, with no sense of pacing at all. And then we get the conclusion to what seemed like a 25 part Ravager backup, which seems to be in there only to get the page count up so they could charge 3.99 for this.

If anyone found this storyline engaging, please speak up, I'd honestly like to know why. I've already griped about the constant changing of guard on Justice League in the span of two issues, where what should be the premiere team book in the DC Universe became Congorilla, alien Star Man, Dick Grayson and Troia. Or the JSA splitting to become two books, one currently mired in some kid of elseworlds story and the other one of those "extra dollar for a meaningless backup feature" books which is just nonstop fighting.

I still enjoy Batman and Robin and Batgirl, and I'm picking up the new Birds of Prey, Flash, and Justice League Generations books to give them a try. But I'm getting a little burned out on superheroes, and it's not because I'm outgrowing them, it's because I want the heroes I like to have decent storylines.

fujishig 06-14-10 06:44 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
Ok, so apparently the current Teen Titans writer came from scripting TV shows like Gossip Girl and Fringe, and somehow got TT as her first writing assignment. Her story arcs seem to be pretty universally reviled, and she's already off the book. But so am I, so it's a little too late for that. Ugh. How can you screw up Teen Titans, with Superboy and Impulse/Kid Flash back on the book?

I did read the last issue, and it's even worse... relationship drama out of nowhere, a long exposition to cover the backstory of the main villain, terrible dialog, an incredibly ill-placed misprint/editorial mistake (Superboy and Wondergirl are fighting, then Conner kisses her and asks if it makes it any better... she replies with "make it harder" instead of "makes it harder"), and multiple deus ex machina moments (Miss Martian can telepathically connect to the bad guy and get it's origin! Static can magically make computers process faster! There's some kind of keyhole in some deep, dark trench in the ocean, but luckily we have Aquagirl on the team!)

Sessa17 06-14-10 06:50 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
I've been reading comics so sporadically lately, I'm literally years behind on some titles. I just read the first 10 issues of Gotham City Sirens & its such a fun book. The best thing to come out of the whole death of Bruce Wayne nonsense.

dx23 06-14-10 10:54 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0...ns83_super.jpg

Superboy 06-18-10 12:39 AM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
If monthlies outside of creator-owned titles or isolated universe titles managed to have the consistency in storytelling quality that they did in the 60s, 70s, and 80s, I would probably keep buying monthlies. But as it is, monthly titles are way too inconsistent in quality to buy, and most creator-owned books read better in trade format. That and in general, I avoid most mainstream super-hero books.

boredsilly 06-19-10 02:56 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
I think I might be coming to an end with monthly issues. I still love me some comics, but I'm finding the serial nature of comics to be incredibly unsatisfying to me now. I'm mainly a trade guy as it is, so it wouldn't be that big a deal. Really, what's worse, is I'm really enjoying being able to read through entire series now, and part of me wants to wait until entire runs are done before I start to read some books.

dx23 06-21-10 08:44 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
It seems that to celebrate 17 years of Image Comics, the founding artists came together to do "Image United", a six issue mini-series with all the original characters from the company. Well, it took them 2 issues to go back to the same shit that ruined their company. Issue #1 was released in Novemeber, #2 in December, both to lackluster reviews and now the the third issues has been delayed indefinitely because the guy, including Todd McFarlane have too much on their plate. Funny how things never change.

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?p...ticle&id=26803

TheBang 06-21-10 08:51 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
No big surprise there. I'm still (not) waiting for the new Spawn/Batman crossover from 2006 that McFarlane was (not) drawing.

fujishig 06-21-10 08:59 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
Should've gotten Kevin Smith to write it, that'd be the perfect storm. You'd think at this point in their careers they'd have completed the miniseries before soliciting it.

Superboy 06-23-10 12:57 AM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 

Originally Posted by boredsilly (Post 10221766)
I think I might be coming to an end with monthly issues. I still love me some comics, but I'm finding the serial nature of comics to be incredibly unsatisfying to me now. I'm mainly a trade guy as it is, so it wouldn't be that big a deal. Really, what's worse, is I'm really enjoying being able to read through entire series now, and part of me wants to wait until entire runs are done before I start to read some books.

I feel the same way, although some books can keep the energy up with both the serial format and writing entire storyarcs.

Invincible is one book I enjoyed for a long time because the monthlies were good reads that translated really well into the trade format. Even small in-jokes and the overall story kept the pace pretty well. The same goes for The Goon. Even issues that were months apart still felt very cohesive.

One of the weaknesses of a book that reads better in trade is that it goes to show just how unmemorable some characters and events can be, if they're quickly forgotten.

davidh777 06-24-10 12:41 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
From last quarter's thread:


Originally Posted by davidh777 (Post 10065003)
I was just wondering at lunch if Invincible Ultimate Collection 5 was ever going to ship, then came back to a notice saying that the title was canceled. :( So what now, pick up the TPBs?

So I figured it was time to suck it up and just get the TPBs. So I do a search and I find out Ultimate Collection 5 is buyable again! I purchased and got it the next day, and it's now in my hands!

:banana::banana::banana::bdance::banana::banana::banana:

dx23 06-28-10 11:20 AM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
Could someone explain to me why Jeph Loeb is highly regarded in the comic book industry, to the point he has been given a promotion to Executive VP, Head of Television of Marvel?

http://marvel.com/news/moviestories....%2c_head_of_tv

I find he work very mediocre, from the way he killed the Hulk books, which were amazing during the Planet Hulk series, to the stupid stories in Superman/Batman that were so simplistic and lacking common sense. Also there is his awful work on Heroes and frankly Teenwolf and Commando aren't film masterpieces at all.

slop101 06-28-10 11:38 AM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
Loeb's success is a mystery to me as well - he's like the Rob Liefeld of comic wrtiers.

dx23 06-28-10 12:36 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 

Originally Posted by slop101 (Post 10236545)
Loeb's success is a mystery to me as well - he's like the Rob Liefeld of comic wrtiers.

That's how I've perceived him too, yet he still has gotten consistent work for the past 5 years and now his storylines from the shitty Superman/Batman series are getting the straight to DVD treatment by WB Animation. The worse part is that he gets paired up with Ed McGuinness, who has to be one of the worst artist in comics. His drawing are just a cartoonish extension of what Liefeld did. Don't get their appeal at all.

fujishig 06-28-10 01:03 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
I always saw McGuinness as very similar to Weiringo (RIP), who I thought was great. As far as Loeb goes, he started in the film industry and has done a bunch of tv work, so I guess the position makes sense, as he understands both industries well (even if he doesn't necessarily excel at either of them). Doesn't seem like he's going to be writing the stories anyway. How many of the other Marvel VPs do you recognize from their outstanding work in the field of comic books? Although it's seemed to have worked out well, I didn't think Quesada had that great of a resume coming into his tenure at Marvel, especially when it came to stuff like lateness of books.

dx23 06-28-10 01:56 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 

Originally Posted by fujishig (Post 10236670)
I always saw McGuinness as very similar to Weiringo (RIP), who I thought was great. As far as Loeb goes, he started in the film industry and has done a bunch of tv work, so I guess the position makes sense, as he understands both industries well (even if he doesn't necessarily excel at either of them). Doesn't seem like he's going to be writing the stories anyway. How many of the other Marvel VPs do you recognize from their outstanding work in the field of comic books? Although it's seemed to have worked out well, I didn't think Quesada had that great of a resume coming into his tenure at Marvel, especially when it came to stuff like lateness of books.

Well, Quesada hasn't improved Marvel that much either and my fear is that Loeb will be funneling mediocre animated and straigh to dvd shit using Marvel property. Marvel is an incredible property, with great characters and storyline. Why haven't they been able to produce good, quality animation after their early 90's success? The only decent animated movie they released was Planet Hulk. Marvel would have been wiser by bringing someone who has been successful, like Bruce Timm or Paul Dini and revamped their animated department scope.

ytrez 06-29-10 09:06 AM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
Yay! Finally people who agree with my opinion of Jeph Loeb! Admittedly, I haven't looked very hard for agreement, but I've been going on for years how awful this guy is. I have a better opinion of McGuinnes though. Sure his artwork is cartoony, but that doesn't make him a bad artist.

Loeb is a perfect writer for fanboy idiots though, which translates into TV even better. The guy throws in every character he can think of and he's like a matador waving a cape at the fanboy bull. They see it and just have to run for it. He does it over and over and people still fall for it. Just the other day I found an old Marvel Previews around and saw an ad for the Fall of the Hulk storyline (which Jeph Loeb would have to pay me to read) and saw a picture of Dr. Doom, Modok, the Leader, Red Ghost and a gaggle of other villains faced off against Hulk, Red Hulk (WTF?), She Hulk, a red She Hulk (double WTF??), son of Hulk (triple WTF???), some dude that looked like Doomsday (C'mon, really now????), and probably Doc Samson and others. I'm sure he's thinking this is big an epic but it's all bullshit. He did the same thing with Hush and Superman/Batman, and hell, all the other shit he's written.

I'm sure the thinking is that this kind of garbage is perfect for TV. Develop a 45 minute cartoon with 18 characters in it and give the fans a chance to see all their favorites. Screw you Jeph Loeb. MF'er can't even spell his first name right and he's a professional writer?

slop101 06-29-10 11:21 AM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
Worst part of it is that Loeb sometimes gets some top-tier artists, like Art Adams or Frank Cho, to draw his drivel. And since I'm a huge Adams fan, I have to buy the book for his art and suffer through Loeb's horrible stories.

dx23 06-29-10 11:53 AM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 

Originally Posted by ytrez (Post 10238070)
I'm sure the thinking is that this kind of garbage is perfect for TV. Develop a 45 minute cartoon with 18 characters in it and give the fans a chance to see all their favorites. Screw you Jeph Loeb. MF'er can't even spell his first name right and he's a professional writer?

I don't think that garbage is good for TV at all. The first real expusure I had of Loeb was through the Superman/Batman: Public Enemies Blu-ray. The story was so stupid and full of holes and lacking logic that I couldn't stand it at all. We are supposed to believe that the DC heroes are going to turn their backs and hunt Superman just because Lex Luthor said so. That plot there shows how much of an imbecile Loeb is, but it was made worse when they used McGuiness art for the animated film and the characters looked completely disproportionate and Power Girl looked like a porn star.

And by the way, all I've read around the net is hatred for Loeb's work. I've only seen a couple of apologists here and there, but the majority of comic book fans seem to detest his crap. The Hulk book sales have been consistently dropping since the end of World War Hulk. They used to be in the top 10 and now only one Hulk book is in the top 40.

boredsilly 06-29-10 12:42 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 

Originally Posted by dx23 (Post 10236632)
The worse part is that he gets paired up with Ed McGuinness, who has to be one of the worst artist in comics. His drawing are just a cartoonish extension of what Liefeld did. Don't get their appeal at all.

You're crazy. Ed McGuinness is the man.

I have to say, I get why people don't like Loeb, but I've enjoyed a good deal of his work. Is it Alan Moore-esque in it's complexity? No. Do his mysteries fall apart in the third act a lot of the time? Yes. Are they fun comics? To me, yuuuuup. Loved the Red Hulk for a good while. Enjoyed his Batman stuff, and thought Superman/Batman was a great time of a comic book.


Originally Posted by dx23 (Post 10238392)
And by the way, all I've read around the net is hatred for Loeb's work. I've only seen a couple of apologists here and there, but the majority of comic book fans seem to detest his crap. The Hulk book sales have been consistently dropping since the end of World War Hulk. They used to be in the top 10 and now only one Hulk book is in the top 40.

The net is never indicative of what the average fan wants or likes. As a rule, I would say any active community on the internet is only 15% to 30% of the real market. Why? Because people always talk about how Leifield was the worst, yet his line at cons is always one of the longest. People say Loeb is a hack, yet most of his books always sell well (which is due in large part to the artist, no doubt). Oh, and EVERYONE is tired of crossover-events, and yet each one is the best selling thing going.

I'm not apologist for Loeb. I just like what I like, and I like a lot of his books.

dx23 06-29-10 01:07 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 

Originally Posted by boredsilly (Post 10238500)
You're crazy. Ed McGuinness is the man.

I'm sorry, but this is just horrible

http://www.bustatoons.com/blog_image...the_titans.jpg
http://www.ronlim.com/worldarchive/superman_thor.jpg
http://images.nextnewnetworks.com/4477.jpg

Compare that to the fluid artwork from these guys

http://goodcomics.comicbookresources.../uxm%20268.jpg
http://www.bigshinyrobot.com/reviews...0_tancover.jpg
http://www.cosmicteams.com/jla/img/p...jla_av_cov.jpg

McGuiness art is not that far from the cartoony Marvel Super Heroe Squad and it takes the seriousness away from the storyline. It is hard to look at his artwork and take whatever story is attached seriously, like it happened with Our Worlds at War.
http://img532.imageshack.us/img532/7449/shsposter.jpg

boredsilly 06-29-10 01:18 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
See, I'm able to say I can understand why you don't like McGuinness' style. A lot of people feel that way. But to say he's horrible? That's ridiculous to me.

His style is cartoony, but since when is that a bad thing. You're reading about dudes that can fly, turn into monsters, or shoot beams out of their eyes. Cartoony fits a lot of the time. Do I think he should have drawn DKR? No, but his style certainly has a place. He's bombastic, and from the school of Kirby, where his characters are outlandish and larger than life. I love it!

fujishig 06-29-10 01:18 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 
McGuiness has an overly cartoony style, but that's just that, his style. I guess you prefer a more realistic style? How do you feel about guys like Parobeck, Weiringo, Jeff Smith, Darwyn Cooke, Humberto Ramos (who I admit can be hard to follow), Art Adams, Chris Sprouse, and the like?

I can see the argument that his work is not really best suited for an overly dramatic or emotional moment.

boredsilly 06-29-10 01:34 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 

Originally Posted by fujishig (Post 10238577)
How do you feel about guys like Parobeck, Weiringo, Jeff Smith, Darwyn Cooke, Humberto Ramos (who I admit can be hard to follow), Art Adams, Chris Sprouse, and the like?

Are you looking at my bookshelves fuji? -wink- I love all of those guys, though I'm a new fan of Art Adams (Ultimate X is THE SHIT!) and Chris Sprouse. I do like hyper realistic and gritty style of art two, but sometimes the David Finch's and Alex Maleev's of the world get a little boring to me, at least when it comes to mainstream comics. Those dudes definitely serve a purpose, and I enjoy a great deal of that sort of work, but if I had to choose, I would go with more highly stylized cartooney stuff every day of the week.

dx23 06-29-10 02:04 PM

Re: June/July/August General Comic Discussion (Summer Break/Convention Season edition
 

Originally Posted by fujishig (Post 10238577)
McGuiness has an overly cartoony style, but that's just that, his style. I guess you prefer a more realistic style? How do you feel about guys like Parobeck, Weiringo, Jeff Smith, Darwyn Cooke, Humberto Ramos (who I admit can be hard to follow), Art Adams, Chris Sprouse, and the like?

I can see the argument that his work is not really best suited for an overly dramatic or emotional moment.

I don't like Ramos artwork either but for the rest of the guys, especially Jeff Smith, the artwork goes hand in hand with the material they do. I can't see a guy like Jim Lee doing Bone, because his gritty style would take away the charm of the Bone characters. And I think complement is the key word. McGuiness style doesn't go hand in hand with what is supposed to be a serious storyline.


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