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"Proper" scientifiction is preferable to Star Wars / franchised mush [DISCUSS]

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"Proper" scientifiction is preferable to Star Wars / franchised mush [DISCUSS]

Old 01-04-06, 01:30 PM
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"Proper" scientifiction is preferable to Star Wars / franchised mush [DISCUSS]

Originally Posted by ds6161
dealing with Liea's kids...
which books & in what order should I read ???...
1) Ender's Game
2) Dune
3) The Mote in God's Eye
4) The Left Hand of Darkness
5) Hyperion

If after that, you won't want to touch a Star Wars "novel" with a ten-foot pole. You'll have had a taste of real science fiction.

I partly jest here, but I'm also serious. Do yourself a favor.
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Old 01-05-06, 08:33 AM
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Originally Posted by James W. Powell
If you're reading, I'm all for it, no matter what the book.
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Old 01-05-06, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by AGuyNamedMike
Well now, it seems threadcraps have finally found their way into BookTalk. Let's not even get into the whole "is Star Wars science fiction or fantasy" thing.
I wasn't getting into that. I was getting into the whole "Star Wars books are garbage" thing.

I honestly think that a lot of people don't know any better. I'm all for these books getting kids and other non-readers started, but I also hope they graduate to real novels over glorified fanfic.

Matt
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Old 01-05-06, 12:51 PM
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
I was getting into the whole "Star Wars books are garbage" thing.
Which is what we call a threadcrap, young padewan.
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Old 01-05-06, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by AGuyNamedMike
Which is what we call a threadcrap, young padewan.
Original thread cleaned up and hereby split to facilitate constructive debate.
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Old 01-05-06, 02:22 PM
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ahhh. I see.

Nice work benedict. Fast too.

The way I see it is I read what I like, you can read what you like. It is no different than movies. Is Star Wars on the same level as Citizen Kane? No, but both can be enjoyed in their own right on different levels.

You can preach about "real" sci-fi novels all you want, but some people like the continuing adventures of the characters from the Star Wars universe. The novels may not be Shakespeare, but you know the characters, you know the world in which they exist, and want more. It's a lot like watching a tv show, tuning in each week to see what happens next. Every episode may not be Emmy material, but it is still fun to see how things unfold for the characters you love.
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Old 01-05-06, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael Corvin
You can preach about "real" sci-fi novels all you want, but some people like the continuing adventures of the characters from the Star Wars universe.
Some people like Old Milwaukee's Best Light, too. Doesn't mean that in a beer forum, I'm not going to suggest to them some beers with actual flavor and body.

Some people like to smoke Swisher Sweets. But if we're in a cigar forum, I'm going to suggest Padrons, Montecristos, and Toranos.

Some people like to do a lot of things. But when we're in a particular forum, you sometimes recommend to people something better.
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Old 01-05-06, 05:09 PM
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Also, for the record, that the absurd thread title was not mine.
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Old 01-05-06, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
1) Ender's Game
2) Dune
3) The Mote in God's Eye
4) The Left Hand of Darkness
5) Hyperion

If after that, you won't want to touch a Star Wars "novel" with a ten-foot pole. You'll have had a taste of real science fiction.

I partly jest here, but I'm also serious. Do yourself a favor.
Guess what? I've read most of those. I also just got the latest Star Wars novel and I'm enjoying it.

Condescending people like you are what makes me hesitant to tell people that I'm a sci-fi fan, because you're acting like the stereotypical arrogant geek that they envision when they think of the genre.
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Old 01-05-06, 07:07 PM
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
Some people like Old Milwaukee's Best Light, too. Doesn't mean that in a beer forum, I'm not going to suggest to them some beers with actual flavor and body.

Some people like to smoke Swisher Sweets. But if we're in a cigar forum, I'm going to suggest Padrons, Montecristos, and Toranos.

Some people like to do a lot of things. But when we're in a particular forum, you sometimes recommend to people something better.

I'd understand that if the original poster asked "What Science Fiction books should I read?" or "What are the best Science Fiction books around?" He didn't.

He asked...

dealing with Liea's kids...
which books & in what order should I read ???...
...and you went off on a tangent. It's like me asking "Which order should I watch the Godfather?" and you telling me I should watch Ingmar Bergman films instead.


That said....I always found Dune (and it's sequel novels) bland and hard to read. Tho I haven't read them since Jr. High so my views & tastes may have changed since then.
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Old 01-05-06, 10:21 PM
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Yeah, I like Scifi...but very very lite Scifi. So I'm quicker to read a scifi book who's universe I'm already familiar with instead of trying to learn how a whole new world works. So if (and I haven't read many) but if I was going to read a scifi book - I would be quicker to grab a Star Trek novel then some classic or 700 page opus. It's just easier for me to dive right in and enjoy things. And reading has to be fun first for me or I'm not really interested.

That's not to say I wouldn't give what I call tougher Scifi a chance. It's just not high on the list.
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Old 01-05-06, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MovieExchange
Condescending people like you
Did I condescend to you? I hardly think recommending some reading and making a few comments about the quality (or lack thereof) of a particular franchise is cause for such venom.

I insulted books, not people. You can't say the same, can you?

Originally Posted by MovieExchange
are what makes me hesitant to tell people that I'm a sci-fi fan,
Become a fan of good fiction. You don't have to be ashamed of that.

Originally Posted by MovieExchange
because you're acting like the stereotypical arrogant geek that they envision when they think of the genre.
Ahh - I thank you for the assumption that I'm just a science fiction fan. It's one of many genres I read, my friend. I'm as likely to be reading Steinback as I am Simmons or Herbert. I care less about genre than I do about good writing. And you don't get good writing in a franchised set like Star Wars. Sorry.

For some reason, some people take this statement as a personal affront. It's not a personal affront. I'm insulting books, not people. Unless you happen to be an author of said books, there's no reason to be personally offended and start in with personal attacks and namecalling ("arrogant geek").

Although, that being said, I must admit that I took a certain ironic pleasure in being called a "geek" by someone who talks about Star Wars books on the internet. I believe that's a bit like being called obnoxious by Jared from Subway.

DISCLAIMER FOR THE HUMORLESS: Please note that the above paragraph was intended to be funny. The author takes no repsonsibility for any laughter or groaning persuant to said statement. Those hypersensitive to their geek status should know that all characters are fictional and in no way are meant to represent real people. Tax, title, and liscensing fees not included. Void where prohibited. No purchase necessary to enter. Must be 18 years of age or older to qualify. Women who are nursing, pregnant, or may become pregnant should conuslt a doctor before reading said humor.

Last edited by mgbfan; 01-05-06 at 10:43 PM.
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Old 01-05-06, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by boredsilly
Yeah, I like Scifi...but very very lite Scifi. So I'm quicker to read a scifi book who's universe I'm already familiar with instead of trying to learn how a whole new world works.
Then you've never read good science fiction. Skilled writers don't merely build on the creations of others. And this has little to do with the genre. This is true of any worthwhile writing. Science fiction is merely the variety we're currently discussing.

If you're judging the genre on franchised garbage, it's little wonder you have a low opinion of it. You really should read something off the list I provided and see if that changes your mind. In fact, I'll tell you what. Read The Sparrow by Mary Doria Russell. If you're not genuinely moved by it, I'll pack up and leave the books forum forever.
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Old 01-06-06, 07:41 AM
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As I said before, reading is key. Read what you want and turn off that TV. Do that, and you're my friend. But I can also understand where mgbfan is coming from. It's sometimes tough loving a particular thing knowing that others would enjoy it if they simply tried it. For example, I've seen some wonderful indie films in my day, but my Hollywood-oriented brother won't bother...he'd rather have blow-em-up action thrillers.

I do think that ALL books have their place. I have a fairly stressful job and sometimes I want to come home to characters I already know. Something easy to read. That's why I enjoy comics and why I enjoy books like Star Wars. No, they aren't always that well written. And often they seem formulaic, but hell, sometimes I want to "shut my brain off" so to speak but still read and have entertainment value.

Personally, I try to vary my reading, whether that's genre, authors, fiction vs. non, classics vs. modern, etc. But it's nice to know that when I've had a stressful couple of days, I can plop down for a few hours with Skywalker and his friends because I already know what I'll be getting into.
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Old 01-06-06, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
Then you've never read good science fiction. Skilled writers don't merely build on the creations of others. And this has little to do with the genre. This is true of any worthwhile writing. Science fiction is merely the variety we're currently discussing.

If you're judging the genre on franchised garbage, it's little wonder you have a low opinion of it.
You've got me wrong. Nowhere did I say I had a low opinion of Scifi based on Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, or whatever franchised book series. Far from it actually. I'm saying that given the choice I would prefer to read those before Dune or something. Like I said I like lite scifi books, so I admit the stuff I read is like popcorn. It's just what I like in this particular genre.

As to the blanket statement that none of that stuff could possibly be anything other than garbage, I think is unfair though. It's like people who used to say all science fiction was crap - just because it was science fiction. I think a skilled writer can take an already existing character set or universe and create something great. This is something I see more off in comics as I've said I don't read a lot of scifi, but I do see it.
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Old 01-06-06, 09:03 AM
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So... I take it some of you won't be joining my weekly book discussion group?
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Old 01-06-06, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by The Valeyard
I'd understand that if the original poster asked "What Science Fiction books should I read?" or "What are the best Science Fiction books around?" He didn't.

He asked...



...and you went off on a tangent. It's like me asking "Which order should I watch the Godfather?" and you telling me I should watch Ingmar Bergman films instead.


That said....I always found Dune (and it's sequel novels) bland and hard to read. Tho I haven't read them since Jr. High so my views & tastes may have changed since then.

Exactly.

Now, to stay on topic, I have read Heinlein, Asimov, Dune and other "adult" scifi. And most of the time, I'll take the fluff. I read because I enjoy it. I don't want to get a headache from the reading material. Some days I want something I can sink my teeth into, but some days I want a fun story with good characters who beat up on some bad guys. With wookies.

And mgbfan, saying things like "then you've never read good science fiction" when people say they like lite sci-fi comes off as EXTREMELY arrogant, whatever your intentions. Who the fuck made you the sci-fi judge? And how do you know what I consider lite sci-fi? It's fine to share your opinion on books, but you're basically bashing others for what they choose to read. At least they're reading. I don't give a shit if people are enjoying the Halo novels, as long as they turn the TV off once in a while.
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Old 01-06-06, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by boredsilly
You've got me wrong. Nowhere did I say I had a low opinion of Scifi based on Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, or whatever franchised book series. Far from it actually. I'm saying that given the choice I would prefer to read those before Dune or something. Like I said I like lite scifi books, so I admit the stuff I read is like popcorn. It's just what I like in this particular genre.
Fair enough.

Originally Posted by boredsilly
As to the blanket statement that none of that stuff could possibly be anything other than garbage, I think is unfair though.
I'm going to have to stick on this one. Skilled novelists don't write about the ideas of other people. They don't use other people's characters and other people's worlds. They build their own characters, their own worlds (again, this isn't anything unique to SF). Those who can, do. Those who can't write fanfic.

Originally Posted by boredsilly
It's like people who used to say all science fiction was crap - just because it was science fiction.
I'm not sure anyone knowledgable said that. A lot of SF is crap. But I don't know of anyone, no matter how literary, who has said Brave New World, 1984, Farenheit 451, or The Left Hand of Darkness is crap.

Originally Posted by boredsilly
I think a skilled writer can take an already existing character set or universe and create something great. This is something I see more off in comics as I've said I don't read a lot of scifi, but I do see it.
Is it possible? Sure. Is that the case in franchised series like Star Wars? Sorry, no.
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Old 01-06-06, 11:53 AM
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mgbfan, have you read any Star Wars books?
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Old 01-06-06, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Xander
but you're basically bashing others for what they choose to read.
Not at all true. I haven't attacked anyone. I've attacked a series of books.

If you choose to take my criticism of a set of books as some sort of personal attack, that's truly your problem, not mine.
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Old 01-06-06, 11:56 AM
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Originally Posted by James W. Powell
mgbfan, have you read any Star Wars books?
Unfortunatly, when I was much younger.

As I've said, I have no problem with these books bringing young readers in. But I truly hope readers grow and recognize these books for what they are: glorified fanfic.
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Old 01-06-06, 12:27 PM
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I personally prefer the 'proper' stuff to 'franchised', because in many cases it is merely a way to sell B- or C- grade stories by slapping a popular name on it. But it's not limited to books/scifi--walk down any toy store in the country. Candy Land, 5 bucks. Dora the Explorer Candy Land, 10 bucks. Hell, there's a Jeep and a Tommy Hilfiger baby stroller you can buy [for 3x the cost of a no-celeb-imprint Graco].

I think it was a scifi author himself, Theodore Sturgeon, who said "99% of everything is crap." [I might have the number wrong.]

I don't think a skilled novelist *doesn't* write about other author's characters/plots. They don't *solely* write like that, but I enjoy a good homage or 'in the style of' or 'in the universe of' sometimes. I might like the author, or the universe s/he is writing in.

While I liked the Ender stories and novels [although the fourth or fifth one dragged], I was not impressed by Mote in God's Eye or its sequel [I think] The Gripping Hand.
Right now I'm reading "At All Costs" by David Weber, it's like the 11th book in the Honor Harrington series. It's a series/universe that some other authors have also written in [haven't read any of those], and it's probably more akin to Star Wars [as a war-novel set in space] than it is to something like Stranger in a Strange Land. But I've read that one as well.
I agree, there's a time and a place for most books. Some books, including SF, are just poorly written, unoriginal, or boring. Some of those are by good authors. Sometimes I want the quick-moving but social commentary-filled works of Fred Pohl or RAH, sometimes I want the slower-moving but 'lighter' big space war books by David Weber.

If it takes reading a Star Wars or Dr Who or Dragonlance or Buck Rogers 'fanfic' to get a kid aware of people like Heinlein, Asimov, Pohl, Bear, Benford, etc, I'm all for it. I think all can agree that there are various levels of 'quality' in any entertainment medium [is Cannibal! the Musical as "good" as Citizen Kane?], and most of us can agree that there's nothing inherently wrong with enjoying/appreciating both of them [I have both Cannibal and Kane], but while it's fine to 'focus' on a particular category, it's also important to 'broaden your horizons', no matter *what* the medium.
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Old 01-06-06, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by mgbfan
Unfortunatly, when I was much younger.

As I've said, I have no problem with these books bringing young readers in. But I truly hope readers grow and recognize these books for what they are: glorified fanfic.
I read plenty of books, and you're right, MOST Star Wars stuff is pretty weak. But there are a few gems hidden in there. But I don't understand why anyone would knock someone else for reading anything. Sure, I love to see people try new things, learn, expand their horizons, etc. Yet doesn't this apply: one man's junk is another man's treasure (god, that sounds pornographic)?
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Old 01-06-06, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by dtcarson
If it takes reading a Star Wars or Dr Who or Dragonlance or Buck Rogers 'fanfic' to get a kid aware of people like Heinlein, Asimov, Pohl, Bear, Benford, etc, I'm all for it.
Agreed 100%. Like I've said several times, I think these books serve a purpose of getting readers in the door and (hopefully) getting them turned on to geniune fiction (be it SF or any other form).
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Old 01-06-06, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by James W. Powell
But I don't understand why anyone would knock someone else for reading anything.
Straw man. I haven't knocked anyone. All I've knocked is a series of books.

For whatever reason, a few people have chosen to read my criticism of the BOOKS as personal attacks. Criticising the quality of a book is not a personal attack (unless, perhaps, you're the author). Sorry, it's simply not.

Anyone is free to disagree with my opinions, but I think it's about time people stop claiming that I've been bashing posters. It simply hasn't happened. I've bashed BOOKS, nothing else.
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