**SPOILERS** Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix [open discussion]
#101
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
From a fan site, some intersting observations:
Interesting information about James:
While JKR has stated that James was a Chaser, he is shown as a Seeker in the film and in this book he plays with a Snitch he stole, which suggests that he might have been a Seeker. Of course, there's nothing to say that he couldn't have played both positions at one time or another, and even if he wasn't a Seeker he could have been showing off with a Snitch, which is much more impressive than playing around with a Quaffle. (OP28)
James is apparently the only son in his family. Sirius says that when he ran away from home, he hung out at James' house, where his parents took Sirius in as "a second son." (OP6)
James' casual cruelty to Snape is strongly suggestive of both the Death Eaters' cruelty to the Muggles at the Quidditch World Cup and also of Dudley's gang beating up smaller children in Little Whinging (OP1).
The names of many of Sirius' family members are the names of stars or constellations: Sirius, Regulus, Bellatrix, Andromeda. Narcissa would seem to be the exception.
The small boy Dudley beat up in OP1 was named Mark Evans. Evans, of course, was Lily's maiden name. No idea what connection there could be, but it certainly is suggestive...
Somehow, Harry got his Marauder's Map back. The last we saw of it, Barty Crouch Jr. had taken it in the guise of Moody. There is no indication of how it was returned to Harry.
The number you ring on the telephone to enter the Misistry of Magic, 62442, spells M-A-G-I-C (thanks to James Greenfield for this one!)
Hermione's Patronus turns out to be an otter. In both the AOL chat and Scholastic interview, Rowling said that if she were an Animagus, she'd like to turn into an otter, because it's her favorite animal.
Harry has never seen the Thestrals pulling the school carriages before, but he has witnessed death several times: his mother and Cedric. Why didn't he see the Thestrals before? Rowling has answered that question in the Royal Albert Hall interview (RAH) Thursday June 26, 2003. She said that it takes a while for a death to be processed, to be accepted. Harry hadn't yet come to that point with Cedric's death at the end of the last school year. He was too young to understand his mother's death and so that never registered in the same way.
The Wizengamot gets its name from the Witan, also known as the Witenagemot, from Anglo-Saxon England. Witan is defined as "an assembly of higher ecclesiastics and important laymen, including king's thegns, that met to counsel the king on matters such as judicial problems." Thanks to Tom Stermitz for reminding me of this reference from my History of Britain classes.
There is some pretty convincing evidence that Aberforth Dumbledore is the barkeep at the Hog's Head. I've added some details to the Lexicon.
Just to show you how sometimes we can get a little TOO intense in our search for clues and hidden meanings:
I was reading the fourth chapter out loud to my son. When I was done, I told him excitedly that I was going to figure out what "Grimmauld" meant, that I was going to search the web and look it up in my French dictionary and so on. He gave me a rather patronizing look and said, "Dad, it means 'grim old place.'" He's right of course.
Errors or Not? Fans have come up with a list of supposed errors in the book. Some of them are errors by Rowling, that's true, but some are misunderstandings by fans. Here's the list and some comments:
Harry sees Thestrals, beasts visible to those who have seen a death, for the first time - yet baby Harry saw his mum being killed.
We don't know that baby Harry actually saw his mother killed. He was there, but that doesn't mean he saw it happen. So it's perfectly reasonable to say that he hasn't seen someone actually die until Cedric. In fact, since Harry doesn't see the thestrals before book five, we can say for sure that whatever he saw as a baby doesn't fulfill the requirements for seeing thestrals.
However, Rowling was asked about this and did give her explanation at the RAH event. Here's what she said:
Email: Harry saw his parents die so why hasn’t he been able to see the Thestrals before?
JK Rowling: I knew I was going to get that one…that is an excellent question. And here is the truth. At the end of Goblet of Fire we sent Harry home more depressed than he had ever been leaving Howarts. I knew that Thestrals were coming, and I can prove that because they’re in the book I’d produced for Comic Relief (UK) Fantastic Beaststs and Where to Find Them.
These are lucky Black Winged Horses. However, if Harry had seen them and it had not been explained then it would cheat the reader. So, to explain that to myself, I decided you had to have seen the death and allowed it to sink in a bit… slowly…these creatures became solid in front of you. So that’s how I’m going to sneak past that one.
Some folks have said that they don't buy it, that this explanation doesn't work for them. Hey, folks, it's her world! It's her story! If she says that it takes some time before the thestrals become visible, it does. And it makes perfect sense, if you think about it. The kind of grappling with reality that Harry was going through at the end of GF is definitely something that would take time to work through, and it makes sense that he would gradually come to terms with what he experienced and would gradually begin to see things in a new way, including seeing thestrals.
Harry uses the Marauders Map - which was confiscated in the last book.
This isn't an error. True, we don't know how he got the map back, but obviously he did or he wouldn't be using it. I would have liked to have been told how that happened, but the fact that Rowling didn't bother to mention it doesn't make it an error. I suspect that the map was sitting on Moody/Crouch's desk and Harry just pocketed it. It's also possible that Dumbledore quietly gave it back to him.
Second-year Dennis Creevey goes to the Hogs Head - but pupils younger than third year are not allowed out of school in term time.
This one is an actual error. Rowling will have to think up something clever for this one. Actual errors like this are called Flints, by the way, named after the character in the first books who somehow attended Hogwarts for an extra year due to an error by Rowling. She acknowledged that error and said that "he had to do a year over" to cover.
On the other hand, rules can be changed. Just because it isn't mentioned to us doesn't mean that for some reason having to do with things we know nothing about they didn't allow certain Second Years to go to Hogsmeade that day. In fact, we could say that, since Dennis was there, they MUST have changed the rules for that day. It's all in how you look at it.
Before a Quidditch match, Harry is relieved it is cloudy as he won't have the sun in his eyes - but moments later the stadium is in "dazzling sunlight".
This is not an error. The sky is not described as heavily overcast, but rather sort of hazy, so that it's a uniform color. It's still bright, especially when coming out of a dark changing room. So it's perfectly reasonable to say that the players stepping out onto the pitch squint at the brilliant sunlight.
Sirius says Harry's dad, James, was never a prefect - but in an earlier book, Hagrid told Harry his father was head boy.
Again, this isn't an error. We don't know how the system works. We have all been making assumptions about it--myself included, since I put down in the timeline that James was made a prefect in his fifth year. That was an assumption, and if it turns out to be wrong, it's not an error in the books, it's an error on my part for assuming. Apparently there are no sixth year Prefects, either, since Hermione and Ron alone are responsible for policing everyone, including Seventh Year Fred and George. None of this matches what we fans were assuming, actually. So we can't assume that James can't become Head Boy just because he didn't make Prefect. Apparently you don't have to be a Prefect to become Head Boy.
Interesting information about James:
While JKR has stated that James was a Chaser, he is shown as a Seeker in the film and in this book he plays with a Snitch he stole, which suggests that he might have been a Seeker. Of course, there's nothing to say that he couldn't have played both positions at one time or another, and even if he wasn't a Seeker he could have been showing off with a Snitch, which is much more impressive than playing around with a Quaffle. (OP28)
James is apparently the only son in his family. Sirius says that when he ran away from home, he hung out at James' house, where his parents took Sirius in as "a second son." (OP6)
James' casual cruelty to Snape is strongly suggestive of both the Death Eaters' cruelty to the Muggles at the Quidditch World Cup and also of Dudley's gang beating up smaller children in Little Whinging (OP1).
The names of many of Sirius' family members are the names of stars or constellations: Sirius, Regulus, Bellatrix, Andromeda. Narcissa would seem to be the exception.
The small boy Dudley beat up in OP1 was named Mark Evans. Evans, of course, was Lily's maiden name. No idea what connection there could be, but it certainly is suggestive...
Somehow, Harry got his Marauder's Map back. The last we saw of it, Barty Crouch Jr. had taken it in the guise of Moody. There is no indication of how it was returned to Harry.
The number you ring on the telephone to enter the Misistry of Magic, 62442, spells M-A-G-I-C (thanks to James Greenfield for this one!)
Hermione's Patronus turns out to be an otter. In both the AOL chat and Scholastic interview, Rowling said that if she were an Animagus, she'd like to turn into an otter, because it's her favorite animal.
Harry has never seen the Thestrals pulling the school carriages before, but he has witnessed death several times: his mother and Cedric. Why didn't he see the Thestrals before? Rowling has answered that question in the Royal Albert Hall interview (RAH) Thursday June 26, 2003. She said that it takes a while for a death to be processed, to be accepted. Harry hadn't yet come to that point with Cedric's death at the end of the last school year. He was too young to understand his mother's death and so that never registered in the same way.
The Wizengamot gets its name from the Witan, also known as the Witenagemot, from Anglo-Saxon England. Witan is defined as "an assembly of higher ecclesiastics and important laymen, including king's thegns, that met to counsel the king on matters such as judicial problems." Thanks to Tom Stermitz for reminding me of this reference from my History of Britain classes.
There is some pretty convincing evidence that Aberforth Dumbledore is the barkeep at the Hog's Head. I've added some details to the Lexicon.
Just to show you how sometimes we can get a little TOO intense in our search for clues and hidden meanings:
I was reading the fourth chapter out loud to my son. When I was done, I told him excitedly that I was going to figure out what "Grimmauld" meant, that I was going to search the web and look it up in my French dictionary and so on. He gave me a rather patronizing look and said, "Dad, it means 'grim old place.'" He's right of course.
Errors or Not? Fans have come up with a list of supposed errors in the book. Some of them are errors by Rowling, that's true, but some are misunderstandings by fans. Here's the list and some comments:
Harry sees Thestrals, beasts visible to those who have seen a death, for the first time - yet baby Harry saw his mum being killed.
We don't know that baby Harry actually saw his mother killed. He was there, but that doesn't mean he saw it happen. So it's perfectly reasonable to say that he hasn't seen someone actually die until Cedric. In fact, since Harry doesn't see the thestrals before book five, we can say for sure that whatever he saw as a baby doesn't fulfill the requirements for seeing thestrals.
However, Rowling was asked about this and did give her explanation at the RAH event. Here's what she said:
Email: Harry saw his parents die so why hasn’t he been able to see the Thestrals before?
JK Rowling: I knew I was going to get that one…that is an excellent question. And here is the truth. At the end of Goblet of Fire we sent Harry home more depressed than he had ever been leaving Howarts. I knew that Thestrals were coming, and I can prove that because they’re in the book I’d produced for Comic Relief (UK) Fantastic Beaststs and Where to Find Them.
These are lucky Black Winged Horses. However, if Harry had seen them and it had not been explained then it would cheat the reader. So, to explain that to myself, I decided you had to have seen the death and allowed it to sink in a bit… slowly…these creatures became solid in front of you. So that’s how I’m going to sneak past that one.
Some folks have said that they don't buy it, that this explanation doesn't work for them. Hey, folks, it's her world! It's her story! If she says that it takes some time before the thestrals become visible, it does. And it makes perfect sense, if you think about it. The kind of grappling with reality that Harry was going through at the end of GF is definitely something that would take time to work through, and it makes sense that he would gradually come to terms with what he experienced and would gradually begin to see things in a new way, including seeing thestrals.
Harry uses the Marauders Map - which was confiscated in the last book.
This isn't an error. True, we don't know how he got the map back, but obviously he did or he wouldn't be using it. I would have liked to have been told how that happened, but the fact that Rowling didn't bother to mention it doesn't make it an error. I suspect that the map was sitting on Moody/Crouch's desk and Harry just pocketed it. It's also possible that Dumbledore quietly gave it back to him.
Second-year Dennis Creevey goes to the Hogs Head - but pupils younger than third year are not allowed out of school in term time.
This one is an actual error. Rowling will have to think up something clever for this one. Actual errors like this are called Flints, by the way, named after the character in the first books who somehow attended Hogwarts for an extra year due to an error by Rowling. She acknowledged that error and said that "he had to do a year over" to cover.
On the other hand, rules can be changed. Just because it isn't mentioned to us doesn't mean that for some reason having to do with things we know nothing about they didn't allow certain Second Years to go to Hogsmeade that day. In fact, we could say that, since Dennis was there, they MUST have changed the rules for that day. It's all in how you look at it.
Before a Quidditch match, Harry is relieved it is cloudy as he won't have the sun in his eyes - but moments later the stadium is in "dazzling sunlight".
This is not an error. The sky is not described as heavily overcast, but rather sort of hazy, so that it's a uniform color. It's still bright, especially when coming out of a dark changing room. So it's perfectly reasonable to say that the players stepping out onto the pitch squint at the brilliant sunlight.
Sirius says Harry's dad, James, was never a prefect - but in an earlier book, Hagrid told Harry his father was head boy.
Again, this isn't an error. We don't know how the system works. We have all been making assumptions about it--myself included, since I put down in the timeline that James was made a prefect in his fifth year. That was an assumption, and if it turns out to be wrong, it's not an error in the books, it's an error on my part for assuming. Apparently there are no sixth year Prefects, either, since Hermione and Ron alone are responsible for policing everyone, including Seventh Year Fred and George. None of this matches what we fans were assuming, actually. So we can't assume that James can't become Head Boy just because he didn't make Prefect. Apparently you don't have to be a Prefect to become Head Boy.
#102
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Amazing that Griffindor wins like EVERY stinking year... oh well.
I think the main plot 'twist' was more about how Hogwarts was going to survive with Umbridge being there, and eventually Dumbledore being gone... and how the kids were going to make it - knewing what they knew - without Dumbledore, Hagrid, or anyone else to help them.
And as far as Harry being angry the whole time - I didn't think it was annoying, I thought it fit perfectly with the idea of he and V being 'connected' and V channeling his anger through Harry.
I think the main plot 'twist' was more about how Hogwarts was going to survive with Umbridge being there, and eventually Dumbledore being gone... and how the kids were going to make it - knewing what they knew - without Dumbledore, Hagrid, or anyone else to help them.
And as far as Harry being angry the whole time - I didn't think it was annoying, I thought it fit perfectly with the idea of he and V being 'connected' and V channeling his anger through Harry.
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I don't know how Snape could be a spy for dumbledore as his cover was blown in the first book when he tried to block Voldemort in Quirell's body from getting the stone.
The entire book he was acting to stop quirell from helping Voldemort and Voldemort was watching all this from within quirells body.
The entire book he was acting to stop quirell from helping Voldemort and Voldemort was watching all this from within quirells body.
#104
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Originally posted by Hobgoblin
I don't know how Snape could be a spy for dumbledore as his cover was blown in the first book when he tried to block Voldemort in Quirell's body from getting the stone.
The entire book he was acting to stop quirell from helping Voldemort and Voldemort was watching all this from within quirells body.
I don't know how Snape could be a spy for dumbledore as his cover was blown in the first book when he tried to block Voldemort in Quirell's body from getting the stone.
The entire book he was acting to stop quirell from helping Voldemort and Voldemort was watching all this from within quirells body.
#105
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Originally posted by sherm42
From a fan site, some intersting observations:
Sirius says Harry's dad, James, was never a prefect - but in an earlier book, Hagrid told Harry his father was head boy.
Again, this isn't an error. We don't know how the system works. We have all been making assumptions about it--myself included, since I put down in the timeline that James was made a prefect in his fifth year. That was an assumption, and if it turns out to be wrong, it's not an error in the books, it's an error on my part for assuming. Apparently there are no sixth year Prefects, either, since Hermione and Ron alone are responsible for policing everyone, including Seventh Year Fred and George. None of this matches what we fans were assuming, actually. So we can't assume that James can't become Head Boy just because he didn't make Prefect. Apparently you don't have to be a Prefect to become Head Boy.
From a fan site, some intersting observations:
Sirius says Harry's dad, James, was never a prefect - but in an earlier book, Hagrid told Harry his father was head boy.
Again, this isn't an error. We don't know how the system works. We have all been making assumptions about it--myself included, since I put down in the timeline that James was made a prefect in his fifth year. That was an assumption, and if it turns out to be wrong, it's not an error in the books, it's an error on my part for assuming. Apparently there are no sixth year Prefects, either, since Hermione and Ron alone are responsible for policing everyone, including Seventh Year Fred and George. None of this matches what we fans were assuming, actually. So we can't assume that James can't become Head Boy just because he didn't make Prefect. Apparently you don't have to be a Prefect to become Head Boy.
I've always taken it as there are 2 Prefects (one boy & one girl) for each house. They are chosen from 5th and/or 6th years. I assumed there is just one Head Boy and one Head Girl that act as sort of super-Prefects over all houses.
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Quirrell didn't necessarily know that. Perhaps he thought Snape was wanting it himself.
Quirrell didn't necessarily know that. Perhaps he thought Snape was wanting it himself.
#107
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Originally posted by Hobgoblin
But Voldemort who was hiding in Quirrells body would surely know that. If Voldemort thought Snape was trustworthy, he would have ordered him to stop blocking Quirrell.
But Voldemort who was hiding in Quirrells body would surely know that. If Voldemort thought Snape was trustworthy, he would have ordered him to stop blocking Quirrell.
Despite what Quirrell tells Harry at the end about Snape trying to save Harry, I alomst wonder if Snape is a complete double agent and in the end will betray Harry, and perhaps be the death of Dumbledore.
It's clear that Snape is a master at Occlumency so he can effectively lie to just about anyone, including Voldemort and Dumbledore, and they would not be able to tell the difference.
If Snape winds up betraying Dumbledore, then there is no mistake in the first book. Snape could simply have been on the sidelines giving a little push here or there to get Quirrell to get the stone. Quirrell may not even have known that Snape was a follower. Just some speculation.
Last edited by sherm42; 07-11-03 at 03:09 PM.
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This could be another hole in the plot. Of course, it could be that Voldemort was too weak to pick up on Snape's resistance. But, I think Voldemort has an idea that Snape isn't a follower anymore since he didn't say anything about him at the end of Goblet of Fire.
If it is an inconsistency, then I think it's a pretty forgiveable one. These problems tend to arise when a series book is written one at a time. It's obvious that the author doesn't know all the answers at the beginning. Maybe Rowling will go back and revise some of the first ones when the series is finished, like King is doing for the Dark Tower series.
If it is an inconsistency, then I think it's a pretty forgiveable one. These problems tend to arise when a series book is written one at a time. It's obvious that the author doesn't know all the answers at the beginning. Maybe Rowling will go back and revise some of the first ones when the series is finished, like King is doing for the Dark Tower series.
#109
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We also don't have any real information on exactly what Snape is doing for the Order. He may not be interacting with Voldemort or his followers at all.
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Originally posted by CloudsMountain
This could be another hole in the plot. Of course, it could be that Voldemort was too weak to pick up on Snape's resistance. But, I think Voldemort has an idea that Snape isn't a follower anymore since he didn't say anything about him at the end of Goblet of Fire.
If it is an inconsistency, then I think it's a pretty forgiveable one. These problems tend to arise when a series book is written one at a time. It's obvious that the author doesn't know all the answers at the beginning. Maybe Rowling will go back and revise some of the first ones when the series is finished, like King is doing for the Dark Tower series.
This could be another hole in the plot. Of course, it could be that Voldemort was too weak to pick up on Snape's resistance. But, I think Voldemort has an idea that Snape isn't a follower anymore since he didn't say anything about him at the end of Goblet of Fire.
If it is an inconsistency, then I think it's a pretty forgiveable one. These problems tend to arise when a series book is written one at a time. It's obvious that the author doesn't know all the answers at the beginning. Maybe Rowling will go back and revise some of the first ones when the series is finished, like King is doing for the Dark Tower series.
birrman54
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Originally posted by Ken2
Blade, I guess no more Imax movies for you guys...
Blade, I guess no more Imax movies for you guys...
Actually, there is one in the Polynesian Cultural Center, I'm just not sure if they'll carry Matrix Revolutions yet.
Bando,
Did they say that? I thought after Prof. McGonagal (sp?) came back and when she was upping Gryffindor's points that it was mentioned that Gryffindor was behind Slytherin. And I believe this was after the Quidditch match....?
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Did anyone else think they were setting up Harry and Luna at the end of OotP? I think that pairing could work. They are very alike, even if she is a little odd. And I felt really sorry for her when she said people took her stuff because they thought she was weird.
Plus, she had a whole chapter devoted to her. She has to have an important role in the story.
Plus, she had a whole chapter devoted to her. She has to have an important role in the story.
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Her importance was simply to get potters story to an a paper. she served to introduce another wizard paper and there was no real connection made there anyhow. It seems pretty pridictable to say that Luna will end up with Longbottom.
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I don't know, I think Luna may have some kind of importance to the story later on. She seemed to be interested in Ron for a little while, she seemed to be intriqued with him.
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Originally posted by CloudsMountain
I don't know, I think Luna may have some kind of importance to the story later on.
I don't know, I think Luna may have some kind of importance to the story later on.
#119
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I'm still rooting for ginny. Something about it all, though I realize there really has been no clues dropped about the two. My hopes were that Ms. Weasley would have been the one that got it having ginny step it up and be more noticed now that she was the only girl in the family. In the book she did step it up and become more known though by acting the way she has in book 5. I can still hope, can't I.
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I'm rooting for Ginny, too.
I didn't care much about her before this book, but now that I've seen her personality, I like it- although I think Harry will have to do a bit more growing up before he's ready to be in a relationship.
Cho is bad news. She plays entirely too many games and she needs to get over Cedric but she keeps chasing guys around. She's going to have to take some time to herself if she's ever going to stop crying all the time.
I didn't care much about her before this book, but now that I've seen her personality, I like it- although I think Harry will have to do a bit more growing up before he's ready to be in a relationship.
Cho is bad news. She plays entirely too many games and she needs to get over Cedric but she keeps chasing guys around. She's going to have to take some time to herself if she's ever going to stop crying all the time.
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Ginny has become far too important a character (her role was vastly expanded in OotP) to serve as Harry's love interest. Cho was good in that role because that's all she really was, she had no significant contribution to the plot otherwise. For this reason, I doubt Harry will get together with Luna either, as she has obviously become a very important character to the overall story arc.
I think Harry ought to get together with Pansy Parkinson just to cockblock Malfoy.
I think Harry ought to get together with Pansy Parkinson just to cockblock Malfoy.
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Why wouldn't Harry date someone who was important to the plot?
It seems like it would make more sense for him to date someone who is important- and him dating anyone will automatically make them important to the plot anyway.
It seems like it would make more sense for him to date someone who is important- and him dating anyone will automatically make them important to the plot anyway.
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Harry's emotional roller coaster was a tad bit much to get through, but Hermione is a very strong character...which offset his irrational behavior.
I was slightly disappointed in the battle primarily because it took so much leading up to it, then in a 1/2 chapter, it was over. Sirius' battle was sad, but it was good to see he finally got in the mix of things.
And that Kreacher....no excuse for the betrayal.
Luna will play a bigger role in the upcoming books as she sees too much of what Harry sees, no small coincidence I'm sure.
The whole Cho Chang thing was a complete waste of time.
I agree, there should be serious consequences for Umbridge's actions - at a minimum a short stay in prison. Her character was detestable.
All in all, a good read, albeit longer than it should have been.
I was slightly disappointed in the battle primarily because it took so much leading up to it, then in a 1/2 chapter, it was over. Sirius' battle was sad, but it was good to see he finally got in the mix of things.
And that Kreacher....no excuse for the betrayal.
Luna will play a bigger role in the upcoming books as she sees too much of what Harry sees, no small coincidence I'm sure.
The whole Cho Chang thing was a complete waste of time.
I agree, there should be serious consequences for Umbridge's actions - at a minimum a short stay in prison. Her character was detestable.
All in all, a good read, albeit longer than it should have been.
#125
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Originally posted by Sparrow
The whole Cho Chang thing was a complete waste of time.
The whole Cho Chang thing was a complete waste of time.