Go Back  DVD Talk Forum > Entertainment Discussions > Book Talk
Reload this Page >

**SPOILERS** Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix [open discussion]

Book Talk A Place To Discuss Books and Audiobooks

**SPOILERS** Harry Potter & the Order of the Phoenix [open discussion]

Old 07-11-03, 11:05 AM
  #101  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Boise
Posts: 3,371
Likes: 0
Received 28 Likes on 9 Posts
From a fan site, some intersting observations:

Interesting information about James:
While JKR has stated that James was a Chaser, he is shown as a Seeker in the film and in this book he plays with a Snitch he stole, which suggests that he might have been a Seeker. Of course, there's nothing to say that he couldn't have played both positions at one time or another, and even if he wasn't a Seeker he could have been showing off with a Snitch, which is much more impressive than playing around with a Quaffle. (OP28)

James is apparently the only son in his family. Sirius says that when he ran away from home, he hung out at James' house, where his parents took Sirius in as "a second son." (OP6)

James' casual cruelty to Snape is strongly suggestive of both the Death Eaters' cruelty to the Muggles at the Quidditch World Cup and also of Dudley's gang beating up smaller children in Little Whinging (OP1).

The names of many of Sirius' family members are the names of stars or constellations: Sirius, Regulus, Bellatrix, Andromeda. Narcissa would seem to be the exception.

The small boy Dudley beat up in OP1 was named Mark Evans. Evans, of course, was Lily's maiden name. No idea what connection there could be, but it certainly is suggestive...

Somehow, Harry got his Marauder's Map back. The last we saw of it, Barty Crouch Jr. had taken it in the guise of Moody. There is no indication of how it was returned to Harry.

The number you ring on the telephone to enter the Misistry of Magic, 62442, spells M-A-G-I-C (thanks to James Greenfield for this one!)

Hermione's Patronus turns out to be an otter. In both the AOL chat and Scholastic interview, Rowling said that if she were an Animagus, she'd like to turn into an otter, because it's her favorite animal.

Harry has never seen the Thestrals pulling the school carriages before, but he has witnessed death several times: his mother and Cedric. Why didn't he see the Thestrals before? Rowling has answered that question in the Royal Albert Hall interview (RAH) Thursday June 26, 2003. She said that it takes a while for a death to be processed, to be accepted. Harry hadn't yet come to that point with Cedric's death at the end of the last school year. He was too young to understand his mother's death and so that never registered in the same way.

The Wizengamot gets its name from the Witan, also known as the Witenagemot, from Anglo-Saxon England. Witan is defined as "an assembly of higher ecclesiastics and important laymen, including king's thegns, that met to counsel the king on matters such as judicial problems." Thanks to Tom Stermitz for reminding me of this reference from my History of Britain classes.

There is some pretty convincing evidence that Aberforth Dumbledore is the barkeep at the Hog's Head. I've added some details to the Lexicon.

Just to show you how sometimes we can get a little TOO intense in our search for clues and hidden meanings:
I was reading the fourth chapter out loud to my son. When I was done, I told him excitedly that I was going to figure out what "Grimmauld" meant, that I was going to search the web and look it up in my French dictionary and so on. He gave me a rather patronizing look and said, "Dad, it means 'grim old place.'" He's right of course.

Errors or Not? Fans have come up with a list of supposed errors in the book. Some of them are errors by Rowling, that's true, but some are misunderstandings by fans. Here's the list and some comments:
Harry sees Thestrals, beasts visible to those who have seen a death, for the first time - yet baby Harry saw his mum being killed.
We don't know that baby Harry actually saw his mother killed. He was there, but that doesn't mean he saw it happen. So it's perfectly reasonable to say that he hasn't seen someone actually die until Cedric. In fact, since Harry doesn't see the thestrals before book five, we can say for sure that whatever he saw as a baby doesn't fulfill the requirements for seeing thestrals.
However, Rowling was asked about this and did give her explanation at the RAH event. Here's what she said:
Email: Harry saw his parents die so why hasn’t he been able to see the Thestrals before?
JK Rowling: I knew I was going to get that one…that is an excellent question. And here is the truth. At the end of Goblet of Fire we sent Harry home more depressed than he had ever been leaving Howarts. I knew that Thestrals were coming, and I can prove that because they’re in the book I’d produced for Comic Relief (UK) Fantastic Beaststs and Where to Find Them.
These are lucky Black Winged Horses. However, if Harry had seen them and it had not been explained then it would cheat the reader. So, to explain that to myself, I decided you had to have seen the death and allowed it to sink in a bit… slowly…these creatures became solid in front of you. So that’s how I’m going to sneak past that one.
Some folks have said that they don't buy it, that this explanation doesn't work for them. Hey, folks, it's her world! It's her story! If she says that it takes some time before the thestrals become visible, it does. And it makes perfect sense, if you think about it. The kind of grappling with reality that Harry was going through at the end of GF is definitely something that would take time to work through, and it makes sense that he would gradually come to terms with what he experienced and would gradually begin to see things in a new way, including seeing thestrals.

Harry uses the Marauders Map - which was confiscated in the last book.
This isn't an error. True, we don't know how he got the map back, but obviously he did or he wouldn't be using it. I would have liked to have been told how that happened, but the fact that Rowling didn't bother to mention it doesn't make it an error. I suspect that the map was sitting on Moody/Crouch's desk and Harry just pocketed it. It's also possible that Dumbledore quietly gave it back to him.

Second-year Dennis Creevey goes to the Hogs Head - but pupils younger than third year are not allowed out of school in term time.
This one is an actual error. Rowling will have to think up something clever for this one. Actual errors like this are called Flints, by the way, named after the character in the first books who somehow attended Hogwarts for an extra year due to an error by Rowling. She acknowledged that error and said that "he had to do a year over" to cover.
On the other hand, rules can be changed. Just because it isn't mentioned to us doesn't mean that for some reason having to do with things we know nothing about they didn't allow certain Second Years to go to Hogsmeade that day. In fact, we could say that, since Dennis was there, they MUST have changed the rules for that day. It's all in how you look at it.

Before a Quidditch match, Harry is relieved it is cloudy as he won't have the sun in his eyes - but moments later the stadium is in "dazzling sunlight".
This is not an error. The sky is not described as heavily overcast, but rather sort of hazy, so that it's a uniform color. It's still bright, especially when coming out of a dark changing room. So it's perfectly reasonable to say that the players stepping out onto the pitch squint at the brilliant sunlight.

Sirius says Harry's dad, James, was never a prefect - but in an earlier book, Hagrid told Harry his father was head boy.
Again, this isn't an error. We don't know how the system works. We have all been making assumptions about it--myself included, since I put down in the timeline that James was made a prefect in his fifth year. That was an assumption, and if it turns out to be wrong, it's not an error in the books, it's an error on my part for assuming. Apparently there are no sixth year Prefects, either, since Hermione and Ron alone are responsible for policing everyone, including Seventh Year Fred and George. None of this matches what we fans were assuming, actually. So we can't assume that James can't become Head Boy just because he didn't make Prefect. Apparently you don't have to be a Prefect to become Head Boy.
Old 07-11-03, 11:09 AM
  #102  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Join Date: May 2000
Location: Saint Louis
Posts: 5,829
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Amazing that Griffindor wins like EVERY stinking year... oh well.

I think the main plot 'twist' was more about how Hogwarts was going to survive with Umbridge being there, and eventually Dumbledore being gone... and how the kids were going to make it - knewing what they knew - without Dumbledore, Hagrid, or anyone else to help them.

And as far as Harry being angry the whole time - I didn't think it was annoying, I thought it fit perfectly with the idea of he and V being 'connected' and V channeling his anger through Harry.
Old 07-11-03, 01:18 PM
  #103  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NJ
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I don't know how Snape could be a spy for dumbledore as his cover was blown in the first book when he tried to block Voldemort in Quirell's body from getting the stone.

The entire book he was acting to stop quirell from helping Voldemort and Voldemort was watching all this from within quirells body.
Old 07-11-03, 02:17 PM
  #104  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Nefarious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: In the Middle
Posts: 5,382
Received 11 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally posted by Hobgoblin
I don't know how Snape could be a spy for dumbledore as his cover was blown in the first book when he tried to block Voldemort in Quirell's body from getting the stone.

The entire book he was acting to stop quirell from helping Voldemort and Voldemort was watching all this from within quirells body.
Quirrell didn't necessarily know that. Perhaps he thought Snape was wanting it himself. I think it's a good point but I'm not sure it can't be explained away.
Old 07-11-03, 02:22 PM
  #105  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Nefarious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: In the Middle
Posts: 5,382
Received 11 Likes on 5 Posts
Originally posted by sherm42
From a fan site, some intersting observations:

Sirius says Harry's dad, James, was never a prefect - but in an earlier book, Hagrid told Harry his father was head boy.
Again, this isn't an error. We don't know how the system works. We have all been making assumptions about it--myself included, since I put down in the timeline that James was made a prefect in his fifth year. That was an assumption, and if it turns out to be wrong, it's not an error in the books, it's an error on my part for assuming. Apparently there are no sixth year Prefects, either, since Hermione and Ron alone are responsible for policing everyone, including Seventh Year Fred and George. None of this matches what we fans were assuming, actually. So we can't assume that James can't become Head Boy just because he didn't make Prefect. Apparently you don't have to be a Prefect to become Head Boy.
If I remember correctly, Percy is a Prefect in his 6th year. I believe he says as much to Draco Malfoy when he encounters Malfory, along with Harry and Ron polyjuiced up as Crabbe & Goyle in the dungeons. Draco smarts off and Percy states he's a Prefect, blah blah blah.

I've always taken it as there are 2 Prefects (one boy & one girl) for each house. They are chosen from 5th and/or 6th years. I assumed there is just one Head Boy and one Head Girl that act as sort of super-Prefects over all houses.
Old 07-11-03, 02:51 PM
  #106  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NJ
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by Nefarious
Quirrell didn't necessarily know that. Perhaps he thought Snape was wanting it himself.
But Voldemort who was hiding in Quirrells body would surely know that. If Voldemort thought Snape was trustworthy, he would have ordered him to stop blocking Quirrell.
Old 07-11-03, 03:06 PM
  #107  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Boise
Posts: 3,371
Likes: 0
Received 28 Likes on 9 Posts
Originally posted by Hobgoblin
But Voldemort who was hiding in Quirrells body would surely know that. If Voldemort thought Snape was trustworthy, he would have ordered him to stop blocking Quirrell.
This is an interesting point. I just reread the first book this week and interestingly enough, it comes across as if Snape is actually pushing Quirrell to go after the stone. They have a meeting in the forest where Snape inquires if Quirrell has figured out how to get past the spells.

Despite what Quirrell tells Harry at the end about Snape trying to save Harry, I alomst wonder if Snape is a complete double agent and in the end will betray Harry, and perhaps be the death of Dumbledore.

It's clear that Snape is a master at Occlumency so he can effectively lie to just about anyone, including Voldemort and Dumbledore, and they would not be able to tell the difference.

If Snape winds up betraying Dumbledore, then there is no mistake in the first book. Snape could simply have been on the sidelines giving a little push here or there to get Quirrell to get the stone. Quirrell may not even have known that Snape was a follower. Just some speculation.

Last edited by sherm42; 07-11-03 at 03:09 PM.
Old 07-11-03, 03:07 PM
  #108  
Cool New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Murfreesboro, Tn
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
This could be another hole in the plot. Of course, it could be that Voldemort was too weak to pick up on Snape's resistance. But, I think Voldemort has an idea that Snape isn't a follower anymore since he didn't say anything about him at the end of Goblet of Fire.

If it is an inconsistency, then I think it's a pretty forgiveable one. These problems tend to arise when a series book is written one at a time. It's obvious that the author doesn't know all the answers at the beginning. Maybe Rowling will go back and revise some of the first ones when the series is finished, like King is doing for the Dark Tower series.
Old 07-11-03, 03:18 PM
  #109  
DVD Talk Limited Edition
 
Nefarious's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: In the Middle
Posts: 5,382
Received 11 Likes on 5 Posts
We also don't have any real information on exactly what Snape is doing for the Order. He may not be interacting with Voldemort or his followers at all.
Old 07-11-03, 05:21 PM
  #110  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Hoboken, NJ
Posts: 3,068
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by CloudsMountain
This could be another hole in the plot. Of course, it could be that Voldemort was too weak to pick up on Snape's resistance. But, I think Voldemort has an idea that Snape isn't a follower anymore since he didn't say anything about him at the end of Goblet of Fire.

If it is an inconsistency, then I think it's a pretty forgiveable one. These problems tend to arise when a series book is written one at a time. It's obvious that the author doesn't know all the answers at the beginning. Maybe Rowling will go back and revise some of the first ones when the series is finished, like King is doing for the Dark Tower series.
Voldemort definately knows about Snape. In GoF. he says something to the effect of "one is too scared to return to me (Karkaroff) and another, I believe has left me forever (Snape).. he will die of course" obviously not a direct quote, but that's the gist of it.

birrman54
Old 07-11-03, 07:07 PM
  #111  
Uber Member
 
Join Date: Mar 1999
Location: Overlooking Pearl Harbor
Posts: 16,232
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Originally posted by Ken2
Blade, I guess no more Imax movies for you guys...
No.

Actually, there is one in the Polynesian Cultural Center, I'm just not sure if they'll carry Matrix Revolutions yet.

Bando,

Did they say that? I thought after Prof. McGonagal (sp?) came back and when she was upping Gryffindor's points that it was mentioned that Gryffindor was behind Slytherin. And I believe this was after the Quidditch match....?
Old 07-12-03, 12:17 AM
  #112  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: NJ
Posts: 486
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
If it is an inconsistency, then I think it's a pretty forgiveable one.
Maybe it is not an inconsistency. Maybe this will be explained in the next two books.
Old 07-12-03, 08:45 AM
  #113  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Did anyone else think they were setting up Harry and Luna at the end of OotP? I think that pairing could work. They are very alike, even if she is a little odd. And I felt really sorry for her when she said people took her stuff because they thought she was weird.

Plus, she had a whole chapter devoted to her. She has to have an important role in the story.
Old 07-12-03, 10:25 AM
  #114  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: City of the lakers.. riots.. and drug dealing cops.. los(t) Angel(e)s. ca.
Posts: 54,199
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Her importance was simply to get potters story to an a paper. she served to introduce another wizard paper and there was no real connection made there anyhow. It seems pretty pridictable to say that Luna will end up with Longbottom.
Old 07-12-03, 11:50 AM
  #115  
Cool New Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Murfreesboro, Tn
Posts: 30
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I don't know, I think Luna may have some kind of importance to the story later on. She seemed to be interested in Ron for a little while, she seemed to be intriqued with him.
Old 07-13-03, 02:07 AM
  #116  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: :noitacoL
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
i'm still rooting for cho chang!!
Old 07-13-03, 08:21 AM
  #117  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: dc
Posts: 2,597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by CloudsMountain
I don't know, I think Luna may have some kind of importance to the story later on.
same here. i think she'll fit in somewhere later. her kookiness makes her believe harry instantly while hermione and ron usually need proof or something explained.
Old 07-13-03, 08:22 AM
  #118  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: dc
Posts: 2,597
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Originally posted by Hero
i'm still rooting for cho chang!!
i find her rather annoying. too much like many of the girls i went to high school with!
Old 07-13-03, 08:32 AM
  #119  
DVD Talk Godfather
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: City of the lakers.. riots.. and drug dealing cops.. los(t) Angel(e)s. ca.
Posts: 54,199
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
I'm still rooting for ginny. Something about it all, though I realize there really has been no clues dropped about the two. My hopes were that Ms. Weasley would have been the one that got it having ginny step it up and be more noticed now that she was the only girl in the family. In the book she did step it up and become more known though by acting the way she has in book 5. I can still hope, can't I.
Old 07-13-03, 08:47 AM
  #120  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: florida
Posts: 9,412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm rooting for Ginny, too.

I didn't care much about her before this book, but now that I've seen her personality, I like it- although I think Harry will have to do a bit more growing up before he's ready to be in a relationship.

Cho is bad news. She plays entirely too many games and she needs to get over Cedric but she keeps chasing guys around. She's going to have to take some time to herself if she's ever going to stop crying all the time.
Old 07-13-03, 03:16 PM
  #121  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: :noitacoL
Posts: 806
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
but she's soo cute!

people were saying that kristin kreuk would play cho chang so i guess that's why i'm still hung on her
Old 07-13-03, 09:19 PM
  #122  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 1999
Posts: 427
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Ginny has become far too important a character (her role was vastly expanded in OotP) to serve as Harry's love interest. Cho was good in that role because that's all she really was, she had no significant contribution to the plot otherwise. For this reason, I doubt Harry will get together with Luna either, as she has obviously become a very important character to the overall story arc.

I think Harry ought to get together with Pansy Parkinson just to cockblock Malfoy.
Old 07-13-03, 10:15 PM
  #123  
DVD Talk Hall of Fame
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: florida
Posts: 9,412
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Why wouldn't Harry date someone who was important to the plot?

It seems like it would make more sense for him to date someone who is important- and him dating anyone will automatically make them important to the plot anyway.
Old 07-13-03, 11:09 PM
  #124  
DVD Talk Gold Edition
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Harry's emotional roller coaster was a tad bit much to get through, but Hermione is a very strong character...which offset his irrational behavior.

I was slightly disappointed in the battle primarily because it took so much leading up to it, then in a 1/2 chapter, it was over. Sirius' battle was sad, but it was good to see he finally got in the mix of things.

And that Kreacher....no excuse for the betrayal.

Luna will play a bigger role in the upcoming books as she sees too much of what Harry sees, no small coincidence I'm sure.

The whole Cho Chang thing was a complete waste of time.

I agree, there should be serious consequences for Umbridge's actions - at a minimum a short stay in prison. Her character was detestable.

All in all, a good read, albeit longer than it should have been.
Old 07-14-03, 10:41 AM
  #125  
DVD Talk Platinum Edition
 
Join Date: Jun 1999
Location: Boise
Posts: 3,371
Likes: 0
Received 28 Likes on 9 Posts
Originally posted by Sparrow
The whole Cho Chang thing was a complete waste of time.

Oh come on. I thought it was needed. Almost no one ever stays with their first love. Now that Harry has experienced this, he will be able to move on. Perhaps to Ginny.

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.