if it's popular, can it be good???
08-21-02, 03:40 PM
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if it's popular, can it be good???
today on NPR there was a discussion on how elitists view books on the bestseller lists. they feel that if it's there then it must be fluff. i disagree, however, it made me wonder...which books in the last 10-20 years have been bestsellers yet can also be viewed as literary gems or worthy of becoming classics?
the first book that popped up in my mind is the beautifully poetic Memoirs of a Geisha. what are your thoughts?
the first book that popped up in my mind is the beautifully poetic Memoirs of a Geisha. what are your thoughts?
08-21-02, 03:44 PM
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When the first Harry Potter book came out, I bought it on a lark. I thought it was a delightful tale. However, once all the hysteria and media attention the series got broke out I began to have second thoughts. I finally realized that it sucked when they announced the movie deal.
08-21-02, 06:26 PM
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I think it could be argued either way - but the works of Stephen King (especially the early 70's stuff) will most likely stand the test of time. And as he's progressed through the years, his writing has become much denser and more complex. His novels were never just a straight-forward plot, where you can pretty much skim the page and skip to the next (like *gag* Koontz). There is definitely some meat there, some deeper symbolism and craftmanlike wordplay that often gets overlooked because King writes "pop" horror novels.
08-21-02, 10:13 PM
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These days, it's increasingly true I feel. The quality of popular fiction has really declined heavily. I think that readers' attention spans and comprehension has declined, and not to get into a chicken-and-egg argument, but this has fueled a shift away from books that have a lot of depth and detail.
As an experiment, I went into a chain-mall-type bookstore and picked up each of the top 10 bestsellers from the shelf, reading a few pages of each at the beginning. What I read was more often than not horrifically pedestrian. It read 'professionally,' but there was no feeling beyond the superficial need to keep the pages turning. A new novel like Lolita, Ulysses or even a Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance today would never sell in any appreciable number.
As an experiment, I went into a chain-mall-type bookstore and picked up each of the top 10 bestsellers from the shelf, reading a few pages of each at the beginning. What I read was more often than not horrifically pedestrian. It read 'professionally,' but there was no feeling beyond the superficial need to keep the pages turning. A new novel like Lolita, Ulysses or even a Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance today would never sell in any appreciable number.
08-22-02, 12:23 AM
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Proulx's The Shipping News was well-crafted, and it had one of the most bizarre endings i've ever read. Toni Morrison and Gabriel Garcia Marquez's stuff is also up there, but have they published anything lately?
08-22-02, 08:58 AM
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today on NPR there was a discussion on how elitists view books on the bestseller lists. they feel that if it's there then it must be fluff.
I think it's fair to say that most book critics are, first and foremost, lovers of language. They gauge the quality of a book on its formal excellence, its stylistic innovations, and its relevance (does it have something to say). I'll admit that I tend to fall into this camp. I'd much rather read a novel that is formally interesting by an author capable of dazzling me with his or her language than a book with a simple style and a good plot.
Notes of elitism begin to emerge, though, when a particular novel blends those formal and social/political elements with a compelling story, especially when said novel is lucky enough to get the power of a publisher's marketing machine behind it. Suddenly the stodgy book critic is forced to accept that the "common man" might also enjoy that little novel that he had "discovered" months earlier.
The best example I can think of right now is Jonathon Franzen's The Corrections. I haven't had a chance to read it yet, but I've enjoyed following the news coverage. When the novel was picked by Oprah for her Book Club (thereby guaranteeing tens of thousands of copies sold), Franzen balked, making some unfortunate public comments about his opinion of Oprah and her impact on the publishing industry. Several reviews, written by those same stodgy critics who I so admire, have almost reluctantly admitted that Oprah made a good choice this time, that The Corrections really is a darn good book.
Again, though, I think it's impossible to discuss this issue without considering the "business" of publishing. There have been several amazing novels that have sold well in recent years. Some have succeeded because of awards: Chabon's Kavalier and Clay, DeLillo's Underworld, Roth's American Pastoral. Others have benefitted from film adaptations. Ondaatje's The English Patient is a brilliant and incredibly complex novel that has surely been helped by having Ralph Fiennes's face on its cover. Toni Morrison's Beloved is perhaps the best American novel of the last twenty years, and it has also sold well.
08-22-02, 04:20 PM
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Cold Mountain.
A note on Darren H's post:
IMHO, this is one of the most intelligent and sensible posts I've read on this forum (other "rooms" included) in a long time. It is refreshing.
I will say, though, that The English Patient was not a "best" seller when first published. The printing you speak of is the reissue after the movie which sold incredibly well. This happens quite often. A successful movie (or even a well hyped one) can turn a book with even lackluster sales into a best seller.
I, too, love the story of Oprah and The Corrections. While helping to bring reading back as an activity in this country, I think her book club was a complete joke. How many of the novels had female victims at the center? How many were written by friends of her? I'm glad it's over because it was just so silly by the end. I just wish that Franzen hadn't caved and stood up for what so many of us believe in. But who's to say I wouldn't have done the same thing under such pressure from agents and publishers?
A note on Darren H's post:
IMHO, this is one of the most intelligent and sensible posts I've read on this forum (other "rooms" included) in a long time. It is refreshing.
I will say, though, that The English Patient was not a "best" seller when first published. The printing you speak of is the reissue after the movie which sold incredibly well. This happens quite often. A successful movie (or even a well hyped one) can turn a book with even lackluster sales into a best seller.
I, too, love the story of Oprah and The Corrections. While helping to bring reading back as an activity in this country, I think her book club was a complete joke. How many of the novels had female victims at the center? How many were written by friends of her? I'm glad it's over because it was just so silly by the end. I just wish that Franzen hadn't caved and stood up for what so many of us believe in. But who's to say I wouldn't have done the same thing under such pressure from agents and publishers?
08-22-02, 05:06 PM
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Darren H said it well.
Let me add that I think the critics have to claim this because they rarely give bestsellers good reviews, and often give rave reviews to stuff that only sells 5,000 copies. The ultimate review (not critique) is probably how well it sells, and for how long.
A crappy movie may make a lot of money but will do so mainly in the first few weeks (Jurassic Park 3 or Planet of the Apes, for example), however a crappy book will never make it anywhere except in a critics column to tell us why we should embrace it.
Let me add that I think the critics have to claim this because they rarely give bestsellers good reviews, and often give rave reviews to stuff that only sells 5,000 copies. The ultimate review (not critique) is probably how well it sells, and for how long.
A crappy movie may make a lot of money but will do so mainly in the first few weeks (Jurassic Park 3 or Planet of the Apes, for example), however a crappy book will never make it anywhere except in a critics column to tell us why we should embrace it.
08-23-02, 07:57 AM
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A crappy movie may make a lot of money but will do so mainly in the first few weeks (Jurassic Park 3 or Planet of the Apes, for example), however a crappy book will never make it anywhere except in a critics column to tell us why we should embrace it.
I'd imagine that the same thing occurs in the publishing industry. I don't mean to step on any toes here, but every new novel by Clancy, Grisham, and Cornwell will sell well despite what reviewers have to say about them.
I guess the one part of your post, krdave, that I would object to is your assumption that those poorly selling novels championed by critics are necessarily "crappy." Pynchon's Mason & Dixon, for instance, was unanimously praised in literary circles, but, because of its style, had no chance of being a bestseller. To continue your film analogy, we might compare it to the films of people like Abbas Kiarostami and Hou Hsiao-Hsien, who are (deservedly) lauded by critics, but who have little chance of ever finding a large audience in America.
re: Cold Mountain. Anyone else looking forward to this film adaptation? After making a wonderful film out of The English Patient (which I thought was unfilmable), I'll go see anything directed by Anthony Minghella.
Last edited by Darren H; 08-23-02 at 08:27 AM.
08-23-02, 10:17 AM
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twain also garnered quite a popular following. in my original post i was also thinking about the corrections but, i too, haven't had a chance to read it. oh, i almost forgot...all over but the shoutin'...this is a terrific, heartwarming, gracious work and was on the bestseller list for a while.
Last edited by hgar78; 08-23-02 at 10:19 AM.
08-23-02, 01:23 PM
#14
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Originally posted by Darren H
I guess the one part of your post, krdave, that I would object to is your assumption that those poorly selling novels championed by critics are necessarily "crappy." Pynchon's Mason & Dixon, for instance, was unanimously praised in literary circles, but, because of its style, had no chance of being a bestseller. To continue your film analogy, we might compare it to the films of people like Abbas Kiarostami and Hou Hsiao-Hsien, who are (deservedly) lauded by critics, but who have little chance of ever finding a large audience in America.
I guess the one part of your post, krdave, that I would object to is your assumption that those poorly selling novels championed by critics are necessarily "crappy." Pynchon's Mason & Dixon, for instance, was unanimously praised in literary circles, but, because of its style, had no chance of being a bestseller. To continue your film analogy, we might compare it to the films of people like Abbas Kiarostami and Hou Hsiao-Hsien, who are (deservedly) lauded by critics, but who have little chance of ever finding a large audience in America.
Some people have a way with words, and other people...well,...not have way, I suppose.
08-26-02, 05:16 PM
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I thought I throw into the mix something I quoted in this earlier thread: What makes a book a 'classic'?
Can a great novel also be a bestseller?
ES: Yes, and all seven of the books we are reading have been bestsellers as well as critically successful. For example, we're reading Don DeLillo's "White Noise." DeLillo has written a number of novels, and some of them are more highly regarded by academics and critics than this one. But "White Noise" is the one that I think everybody agrees is his breakout book -- it was the book that first reached a really wide audience and remains the book that is the most popular with general readers. At the same time, it breaks new ground aesthetically and thematically, and influenced many younger writers.
Is it harder to write a classic novel today?
ES: I don't know if it is harder to write a classic novel than it ever was, but I certainly think it's harder for a novelist to get attention. The extraordinary changes in publishing, in marketing and distributing books made the novel's fate much more complicated than it was a century ago. We're actually living in a golden age of fiction, but the novel today has to compete with so many other forms of entertainment for people's time.
Does this mean we are more likely to miss the truly great novel in the flood?
ES: Yes, if we depend only on bestsellers. Bestseller lists are dominated internationally by five or six writers. Those books are like brands -- Nike or the Gap -- because they have a huge amount of publicity and money behind them, and a dependable record for delivering a good read. They're familiar brands and they have a loyal audience. That doesn't mean they're not entertaining. But for a serious novel that is trying to do something new also to reach a mass readership is very, very difficult.
Do those trends disappoint or discourage you as a literary critic?
ES: I think that it's wonderful that there are so many novels being published, and it's wonderful that we have so many choices. Along with that, I think readers need and want more recommendations, advice and guidelines. They're filling that need in a variety of ways, such as by joining book clubs, which are proliferating everywhere. Readers like to talk about what they're reading, but they also want guidance and recommenda-tions they trust about what to read next. I think there is a tremendous need for that kind of opinion, and academic literary critics have an opportunity to speak to a large audience beyond the university. We don't have to leave it all to Oprah Winfrey.
ES: Yes, and all seven of the books we are reading have been bestsellers as well as critically successful. For example, we're reading Don DeLillo's "White Noise." DeLillo has written a number of novels, and some of them are more highly regarded by academics and critics than this one. But "White Noise" is the one that I think everybody agrees is his breakout book -- it was the book that first reached a really wide audience and remains the book that is the most popular with general readers. At the same time, it breaks new ground aesthetically and thematically, and influenced many younger writers.
Is it harder to write a classic novel today?
ES: I don't know if it is harder to write a classic novel than it ever was, but I certainly think it's harder for a novelist to get attention. The extraordinary changes in publishing, in marketing and distributing books made the novel's fate much more complicated than it was a century ago. We're actually living in a golden age of fiction, but the novel today has to compete with so many other forms of entertainment for people's time.
Does this mean we are more likely to miss the truly great novel in the flood?
ES: Yes, if we depend only on bestsellers. Bestseller lists are dominated internationally by five or six writers. Those books are like brands -- Nike or the Gap -- because they have a huge amount of publicity and money behind them, and a dependable record for delivering a good read. They're familiar brands and they have a loyal audience. That doesn't mean they're not entertaining. But for a serious novel that is trying to do something new also to reach a mass readership is very, very difficult.
Do those trends disappoint or discourage you as a literary critic?
ES: I think that it's wonderful that there are so many novels being published, and it's wonderful that we have so many choices. Along with that, I think readers need and want more recommendations, advice and guidelines. They're filling that need in a variety of ways, such as by joining book clubs, which are proliferating everywhere. Readers like to talk about what they're reading, but they also want guidance and recommenda-tions they trust about what to read next. I think there is a tremendous need for that kind of opinion, and academic literary critics have an opportunity to speak to a large audience beyond the university. We don't have to leave it all to Oprah Winfrey.
08-27-02, 10:33 AM
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The latest critically acclaimed novel to make the best-seller lists is Alice Sebold's The Lovely Bones. I haven't read it, but two friends, one of them a soon to be published author, both loved it. I'll probably wait for the paperback next year as I try not to buy hardcover fiction.
At the same time, I highly doubt the new Umberto Eco novel, Baudolino, will make any bestseller lists. But I don't care, I love his writing. I actually read Foucault's Pendulum, didn't just buy it to look erudite. My pleasure reading tends to bounce back and forth from populist stuff like King, Grisham, Clancy to more literary work like Pynchon and more obscure stuff like Ligotti.
At the same time, I highly doubt the new Umberto Eco novel, Baudolino, will make any bestseller lists. But I don't care, I love his writing. I actually read Foucault's Pendulum, didn't just buy it to look erudite. My pleasure reading tends to bounce back and forth from populist stuff like King, Grisham, Clancy to more literary work like Pynchon and more obscure stuff like Ligotti.
08-28-02, 03:05 AM
#17
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Alice Sebold's The Lovely Bones is a truly incredible book. The narrative structure she uses is remarkably well-crafted. I was astonished to see how many copies of it are selling, as usually I find that the bestseller list is always dominated by the likes of Danielle Steel, James Patterson and Tom Clancy. But spiritual books tend to develop a rabid following, (a la Richard Paul Evans' The Christmas Box) so maybe that accounts for some of it.
Still, it's definitely worth reading. As a professional editor, (in newspapers, rather than books) I'm positive that it's destined to become a classic.
Still, it's definitely worth reading. As a professional editor, (in newspapers, rather than books) I'm positive that it's destined to become a classic.
05-14-07, 01:48 PM
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A great example of a bestselling book that I believe will be considered a classic is the winner of the 2006 Pulitzer prize for fiction, Cormac McCarthy's The Road. However, it only became a bestseller after Oprah made it the latest selection for her book club.
05-14-07, 07:29 PM
#21
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Hasn't some of T.C. Boyle's stuff been on best-seller lists?
But I think most "literary" people would say that stuff by Grafton, King, Crichton, Steele, etc. is not that good.
But I think most "literary" people would say that stuff by Grafton, King, Crichton, Steele, etc. is not that good.
05-15-07, 09:43 AM
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The notion that simply because people like something it must be of low quality is absurd.
Instead I would ask: If a piece of supposedly great literature (for example), is not popular with readers, what does that say about our conception of literature?
Instead I would ask: If a piece of supposedly great literature (for example), is not popular with readers, what does that say about our conception of literature?
05-15-07, 10:04 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by Groucho
When the first Harry Potter book came out, I bought it on a lark. I thought it was a delightful tale. However, once all the hysteria and media attention the series got broke out I began to have second thoughts. I finally realized that it sucked when they announced the movie deal.
05-15-07, 10:08 AM
#24
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I worked in bookstores for several years. The new book by significant authors like John Updike or William Styron always made the bestseller list.
A lot of people in this thread were bagging on Tom Clancy. He made himself a success by sheer storytelling merit. The Hunt for Red October was published in 1985 by Naval Institute Press, a small publisher with almost no money for promotion. He didn't do the author tour. There were no ads in trade magazines for his book next to the ads for Danielle Steel and Stephen King. There was no internet. The sales were generated by people talking face to face: genuine word-of-mouth.
A lot of people in this thread were bagging on Tom Clancy. He made himself a success by sheer storytelling merit. The Hunt for Red October was published in 1985 by Naval Institute Press, a small publisher with almost no money for promotion. He didn't do the author tour. There were no ads in trade magazines for his book next to the ads for Danielle Steel and Stephen King. There was no internet. The sales were generated by people talking face to face: genuine word-of-mouth.
05-15-07, 06:42 PM
#25
DVD Talk Legend
Originally Posted by hgar78
today on NPR there was a discussion on how elitists view books on the bestseller lists. they feel that if it's there then it must be fluff. i disagree, however, it made me wonder...which books in the last 10-20 years have been bestsellers yet can also be viewed as literary gems or worthy of becoming classics?
the first book that popped up in my mind is the beautifully poetic Memoirs of a Geisha. what are your thoughts?
the first book that popped up in my mind is the beautifully poetic Memoirs of a Geisha. what are your thoughts?
Shannara series by Terry Brooks
Wheel of time Series by Robert Jordan.