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JamieP
07-26-14, 04:17 AM
Hi
I grew up on a steady diet of syndicated Looney Tunes reruns.

I've only recently found out that many of these cartoons were cut for modern eyes.

What do people here think of this?

milo bloom
07-26-14, 09:37 AM
The DVD releases show most of them uncut. They have introductions from celebrities like Whoopi Goldberg talking about their historical significance. I think most of the really bad ones just haven't been released at all.

Ash Ketchum
07-26-14, 09:58 AM
COAL BLACK AND DE SEBBEN DWARFS (1943) was never cut, because it was, in all likelihood, never shown on TV. I'm not suggesting it should have been, but it should be available for those who are curious to see it. Same with CLEAN PASTURES (1937), although it's far less egregious. I wonder how many of the cartoons with black stereotypes throughout the short ever got shown on TV at all, e.g. the two I just mentioned plus the Lantz cartoons, UNCLE TOM'S CABANA, SCRUB ME MAMA WITH A BOOGIE BEAT and VOODOO IN HARLEM. The only place I've ever seen them is at theaters, museums and film societies showing cartoon retrospectives, although I think SCRUB ME MAMA is available on one of the Walter Lantz DVD collections. I remember seeing lots of cartoons with stereotyped cannibals on TV as a child, but I don't recall any of the ones I listed above being shown.

The cut ones tend to have one racist gag that gets cut or a blackface number (usually quite innocuous) or a depiction of suicide. (e.g. The "frog croaking" gag in one of the Tex Avery travelogue shorts, or the one that ends with the pet who's just seen something really crazy and goes, "Now I've seen everything" and then shoots himself.)

The Cow
07-26-14, 10:31 AM
^^ They are out there in YouTube land

zyzzle
07-27-14, 05:44 PM
... In horrible quality. Tenth-generation, triply compressed shit.

thetao
07-28-14, 04:04 PM
I don't follow developments closely, but agree with the previous poster that official, high-quality releases of classic cartoons (vs. PD releases that are usually thrown together) are generally released intact. If a cartoon is so offensive that the disclaimer isn't enough, it likely hasn't been released at all. Check out the plight of WB's Censored Eleven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censored_Eleven), which may one day still see the light of day.

But as the home video market winds down and film people at the studios are no longer necessarily calling the shots, censorship is just one issue. OAR is being violated (http://www.thadkomorowski.com/2010/08/frustrating-and-fowl/), to appease buyers who apparently now expect everything to be in widescreen. So sad.

UAIOE
08-02-14, 01:24 AM
So the fight used to be to make sure everything was shown in its proper widescreen format. Now the fight it to make sure things shot in fullscreen remain that way?

Is this an episode of "The Twilight Zone"?

Loventino
08-06-14, 09:23 AM
The XXI century - all right!:banana:

Sweetygirl
08-06-14, 09:51 AM
I love Looney Tunes but Loventino says it all right!

My Other Self
08-06-14, 10:01 AM
So the fight used to be to make sure everything was shown in its proper widescreen format. Now the fight it to make sure things shot in fullscreen remain that way?

Is this an episode of "The Twilight Zone"?Things weren't shot in "full screen" -- the Academy ratio was 1.37:1, so if something was released theatrically in that ratio, then it needs to stay that way. It was the ratio all Hollywood films shot on 35mm used form 1932 to 1952. Beginning in 1953, theaters started matting their non-anamorphic films with varying wider ratios.

The fight wasn't for "widescreen." The fight was for OAR -- the way the film was originally exhibited.

The Man with the Golden Doujinshi
08-06-14, 10:36 AM
I'd be satisfied if they put out a special edition of the cartoons that make people faint. Then the people that can't handle the past don't have to worry about it.

I may seem jaded towards these people but people these days get offended over the tiniest things. We had an event and the posters had a background color of red. We got calls saying the red was making them feel angry and uncomfortable. I can see how a cartoon with a Confederate flag could make this same person literally poop themselves before fainting.

BobO'Link
08-06-14, 01:38 PM
I'd be satisfied if they put out a special edition of the cartoons that make people faint. Then the people that can't handle the past don't have to worry about it.

I may seem jaded towards these people but people these days get offended over the tiniest things. We had an event and the posters had a background color of red. We got calls saying the red was making them feel angry and uncomfortable. I can see how a cartoon with a Confederate flag could make this same person literally poop themselves before fainting.
I'm with you. IMHO, the overly PC environment today is far worse than anything from history. People have forgotten how to take a *joke*. I grew up with that stuff and don't recall *anyone* ever being offended *unless they were looking to be offended from the start*! Even if some of that material *is* truly offensive, rewriting history by getting all PC and editing content is *not* the way to learn. You must embrace it, look at it in context, and come away with a new perspective on and appreciation of the past. Stereotypes exist for a *reason* and there are stereotypes for just about everything and every group. I saw most of the "offensive" cartoons on TV as a kid and we thought nothing about them. I later learned many of those "offensive" cartoons were originally applauded by the very groups who later found them offensive.

To quote Bob Clampett, who produced Coal Black...
In 1942, during the height of anti-Japanese sentiment during World War II, I was approached in Hollywood by the cast of an all-black musical off-broadway production called Jump For Joy while they were doing some special performances in Los Angeles. They asked me why there weren't any Warner's cartoons with black characters and I didn't have any good answer for that question. So we sat down together and came up with a parody of Disney's "Snow White" and "Coal Black" was the result. They did all the voices for that cartoon, even though Mel Blanc's contract with Warners gave him sole voice credit for all Warners cartoons by then. There was nothing racist or disrespectful toward blacks intended in that film at all, nor in Tin Pan Alley Cats which is just a parody of jazz piano great Fats Waller, who was always hamming into the camera during his musical films. Everybody, including blacks had a good time when these cartoons first came out. All the controversy about these two cartoons has developed in later years merely because of changing attitudes toward black civil rights that have happened since then.

The story is pretty much the same for the rest of the "offensive" cartoons.

And don't get me started on the do-gooder parent groups who caused the banning and editing of other classic cartoons (as well as The Three Stooges and Little Rascals/Our Gang shorts) because of "violence" and other "inappropriate" behavior.

My Other Self
08-06-14, 01:44 PM
And don't get me started on the do-gooder parent groups who caused the banning and editing of other classic cartoons (as well as The Three Stooges and Little Rascals/Our Gang shorts) because of "violence" and other "inappropriate" behavior.I only saw They Stooge to Conga once on the Family Channel, in a heavily edited form, back in the late 90s. I had never seen The Yoke's on Me on TV at all, even going back to the 80s when they had their resurgence in popularity. It wasn't until the Missing 60 went back in to the syndication package and AMC showed it a few years ago that I actually viewed it on a television station.

The first time I had ever seen it was on DVD.

Hokeyboy
08-06-14, 09:58 PM
Not a Loony Tune, but that Popeye where he shoots and murders Shorty at the end (with the caption "THE BITTER END") shocked the shit outta me when I first saw it. I thought I was dreaming.

HAPPY BIRTHDAZE was the episode. Skip to 7:10:

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/aMJrM80r50A" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My Other Self
08-06-14, 10:04 PM
I remember seeing that Popeye short somewhere when I was a kid (maybe on 16mm?), but I don't remember that ending. Holy shit. :lol:

Hokeyboy
08-06-14, 10:08 PM
^I believe Cartoon Network used to broadcast it without the final 45 seconds. Holy shit is right! :)

PhantomStranger
08-07-14, 01:55 AM
I don't follow developments closely, but agree with the previous poster that official, high-quality releases of classic cartoons (vs. PD releases that are usually thrown together) are generally released intact. If a cartoon is so offensive that the disclaimer isn't enough, it likely hasn't been released at all. Check out the plight of WB's Censored Eleven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censored_Eleven), which may one day still see the light of day.

Interesting stuff has come out in the recent past about Warner's release policies of questionable historical material. Apparently there is a single executive at WB holding up all of the racially-oriented offensive material from seeing a release. This person has deemed content of that type too offensive to be permitted on home video. As long the person remains in their position of power, I doubt you'll ever get questionable material from WB.

My Other Self
08-07-14, 09:28 AM
Interesting stuff has come out in the recent past about Warner's release policies of questionable historical material. Apparently there is a single executive at WB holding up all of the racially-oriented offensive material from seeing a release. This person has deemed content of that type too offensive to be permitted on home video. As long the person remains in their position of power, I doubt you'll ever get questionable material from WB.The Censored 11 have been restored and screened at different venues within the past few years. They were supposed to get a general retail release (not Warner Archive), but something must have happened for them to just sit on them since they paid good money for their preservation.

Hokeyboy
08-07-14, 09:35 AM
Mammy Two-Shoes is an American icon. :up:

The Man with the Golden Doujinshi
08-07-14, 10:29 AM
Not a Loony Tune, but that Popeye where he shoots and murders Shorty at the end (with the caption "THE BITTER END") shocked the shit outta me when I first saw it. I thought I was dreaming.

Eh, people were always getting shot in cartoons when I was growing up and they didn't actually show Shorty dead. Honestly, I would have been happy if he shot Olive Oil and they showed it. Never understood the appeal.

BobO'Link
08-07-14, 12:40 PM
Eh, people were always getting shot in cartoons when I was growing up and they didn't actually show Shorty dead. Honestly, I would have been happy if he shot Olive Oil and they showed it. Never understood the appeal.
Yep. All you see is the muzzle flash.

The first time I saw the edited version of the Bugs Bunny short Hillbilly Hare I about came unglued! *ALL* the scenes of the hillbillies shooting each other were gone! The continuity of the short, as well as many jokes, was ruined! This was one they should have just banned rather than edit because of all the shooting. Of course this was on network TV and I'd grown up watching *all* the Looney Tunes shorts unedited on local TV. My kids never knew anything was wrong until I pointed it out.

PhantomStranger
08-07-14, 02:39 PM
The Censored 11 have been restored and screened at different venues within the past few years. They were supposed to get a general retail release (not Warner Archive), but something must have happened for them to just sit on them since they paid good money for their preservation.
The executive I mentioned is the person blocking their home video release, point blank. There is no need for idle speculation. They were remastered without consideration for release, that was a decision by a different department. This extends to all of their insensitive cartoons, not just these 11 shorts.

My Other Self
08-07-14, 02:55 PM
The executive I mentioned is the person blocking their home video release, point blank. There is no need for idle speculation. They were remastered without consideration for release, that was a decision by a different department. This extends to all of their insensitive cartoons, not just these 11 shorts.Do you have a source for this executive business? Jerry Beck himself said they were getting a release, and he's more plugged in than anyone.

PhantomStranger
08-07-14, 03:01 PM
Do you have a source for this executive business? Jerry Beck himself said they were getting a release, and he's more plugged in than anyone.
I can't name names.

Hokeyboy
08-07-14, 03:53 PM
Eh, people were always getting shot in cartoons when I was growing up and they didn't actually show Shorty dead.
Yep. All you see is the muzzle flash..
To be fair, this is quite different from when Daffy Duck gets shot in the face by Elmer Fudd and his beak is comically on the other side of his head, or when Tom gets shot in the face by a shotgun-wielding Jerry and he instantly turns into a Steppen Fetchit clone.

This was a bit darker than that. Shorty started the cartoon almost committing suicide by gunshot to the head. Cut to the end, with the two of them stuck in that furnace, Shorty having ruined Popeye's birthday, and is annoyingly singing "Happy Birthday To My Pal" in the dark... then a sudden GUNSHOT and absolute silence... and then the "The Bitter End" caption over foreboding, minor key orchestrations. I'm not saying its "Serbian Film" levels of depravity, but holy fuck, to an impressionable kid, that was just WRONG, man!

Hokeyboy
08-07-14, 03:54 PM
I can't name names.
http://www.webmarketers.com.au/wp-content/themes/WebMarketersCrew/images/name-names.jpg

The Man with the Golden Doujinshi
08-07-14, 04:23 PM
To be fair, this is quite different from when Daffy Duck gets shot in the face by Elmer Fudd and his beak is comically on the other side of his head, or when Tom gets shot in the face by a shotgun-wielding Jerry and he instantly turns into a Steppen Fetchit clone.

This was a bit darker than that. Shorty started the cartoon almost committing suicide by gunshot to the head. Cut to the end, with the two of them stuck in that furnace, Shorty having ruined Popeye's birthday, and is annoyingly singing "Happy Birthday To My Pal" in the dark... then a sudden GUNSHOT and absolute silence... and then the "The Bitter End" caption over foreboding, minor key orchestrations. I'm not saying its "Serbian Film" levels of depravity, but holy fuck, to an impressionable kid, that was just WRONG, man!

I think a darker one is where the mice have knives and stuff out and were getting ready to kill the mother cat, or kittens(?). Whichever cat was about to get killed was tied up. Then whatever cat(s) were free, came in at the last minute and saved the hostage.

rw2516
08-07-14, 05:05 PM
What's the one with the fat pig that has a nightmare where a mad scientist has him confined to machines force feeding him all kinds of food? Haven't seen that one in decades. Haven't gotten through all the Golden Collections yet so may be on there. I recorded dozens of hours of WB cartoons off Cartoon Network. After editing out the ones that have been released on dvd came up with approx. 300 that haven't. It was never shown on the shows I recorded.

zyzzle
08-07-14, 05:27 PM
I can't name names.an

Sure you can! You're in an anonymous realm. Let the chips fall where they may. Hopefully that executive will get his or her comeuppance... The righteousness of some in power needs to be stopped. This is one of those instances.

Warner cares only about making money. These shorts have been restored. So, they should be released. Warner would greatly profit thereby.

majorjoe23
08-07-14, 05:53 PM
Warner would greatly profit thereby.

Would they? I'm curious how much these cartoons would generate, especially with physical media in decline.

caligulathegod
08-07-14, 06:03 PM
What's the one with the fat pig that has a nightmare where a mad scientist has him confined to machines force feeding him all kinds of food? Haven't seen that one in decades. Haven't gotten through all the Golden Collections yet so may be on there. I recorded dozens of hours of WB cartoons off Cartoon Network. After editing out the ones that have been released on dvd came up with approx. 300 that haven't. It was never shown on the shows I recorded.

Pigs is Pigs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigs_Is_Pigs_%281937_film%29).

Says it is on Looney Tunes Golden Collection: Volume 3

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/ulFqjU1KQVU" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Neil M.
08-07-14, 06:20 PM
It's been pretty clear for years that Warner has no strategy when it comes to their Looney Tunes releases. They restored most of the best cartoons and they seem content to just keep releasing the same cartoons. A while back, Jerry Beck said that they have no more money to restore more cartoons and that the one executive is blocking the controversial cartoons from being released. You would think that the Warner Archives would be the perfect way to release the less popular and controversial cartoons but I guess not. I've pretty much given up hope that Warner will ever restore all of their cartoons and give use a complete collection.

My Other Self
08-07-14, 07:29 PM
I can't name names.I wasn't asking for a name, but maybe a source for your claims? I think it's easy to just throw a reason out there without any sort of backing, but if there's a hold up for a legitimate reason like you're describing then I'm sure it would have been written about somewhere.

It makes no sense for Warner to have gone through an expensive restoration process for the Censored 11 just to keep them in a vault. If this executive is that high ranking then he could have put the kibosh on the whole deal before it even got that for.

Neil M.
08-07-14, 08:24 PM
I wasn't asking for a name, but maybe a source for your claims? I think it's easy to just throw a reason out there without any sort of backing, but if there's a hold up for a legitimate reason like you're describing then I'm sure it would have been written about somewhere.

It makes no sense for Warner to have gone through an expensive restoration process for the Censored 11 just to keep them in a vault. If this executive is that high ranking then he could have put the kibosh on the whole deal before it even got that for.

Jerry Beck mentioned it in a radio interview.

thetao
08-08-14, 12:42 PM
It's been pretty clear for years that Warner has no strategy when it comes to their Looney Tunes releases. They restored most of the best cartoons and they seem content to just keep releasing the same cartoons. A while back, Jerry Beck said that they have no more money to restore more cartoons and that the one executive is blocking the controversial cartoons from being released. You would think that the Warner Archives would be the perfect way to release the less popular and controversial cartoons but I guess not. I've pretty much given up hope that Warner will ever restore all of their cartoons and give use a complete collection.

Yes, WB had a strategy, at least up through 2008, the year of Golden Collection Vol. 6 and Popeye Vol. 3. IMHO the later Platinum Collections were poorly devised, and while the Super Stars DVD's were an okay middle ground, when WB refused to fix the cropping issues on the Bugs and Daffy disks, that put the writing on the wall. The Mouse Chronicles set may be their only outstanding achievement in ~6 years.

I don't necessarily need every cartoon, but another handful of Golden Collections might have been enough for most people. I did a real double-take when I stumbled on mock entries for GC#7 - GC#10 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Tholden28/Looney_Tunes_Golden_Collection:_Volume_11) on a user's personal Wikipedia page.

Does WB have the money to restore 5 cartoons a year? I expect so, but if not, then how about 4? 3? 2? At some point the argument becomes ridiculous. There's just no force of will anymore.

mndtrp
08-09-14, 12:32 PM
Even if they didn't, this is something that I imagine would gain traction as a kickstarter type project.


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